Just Bought An M1A1 In The UK

[rpbcps]

 

Answered my own question on the 'US Property' roll mark, Frank gave me the answer on page 177 of American Thunder 3.

[Doug Quaid]

On 12/6/2024 at 10:04 AM, rpbcps said:

I am no expert on M1 / M1A1's, but every example I have seen, has had 'US Property' marked on them.

Maybe it was just the ones sent out on Lend lease had it? I was told that the US and A1 was added to Model of 1928 on the TSMGs sent to the UK, once Lend Lease was enacted, to give 'US ownership' of them.

Mine doesn't have "US property" on it.

 

[rpbcps]

6 minutes ago, Doug Quaid said:

Mine doesn't have "US property" on it.

 

Yes Franks book said not all M1A1's were marked with it, and most early M1s were not marked with 'US Property'. Not 100% sure why, but could be linked to Lend-Lease weapons being marked as such, as I suspected.

[Dazza]

16 hours ago, Doug Quaid said:

The square S on my barrel is for "Stevens" as far as I know.

The "RIA" is for Rock Island Arsenal, one of the arsenals in the USA where vast numbers of WWII guns were refurbished (and had their collector value reduced.)

Has the Thompson bullet logo on top in front of the rear sight.

My fore-stock has a big M stamped on it, on the end facing the shooter.  Maybe one of these experts here will know what that is.

Also, the lower serial number matches the upper.

Thanks very much Doug, yes your right there are some similarities with the guns. You've made me check mine again and I found these marks, anybody know what they mean?

[Dazza]

16 hours ago, signal_4 said:

I “think” your X has do with British proofing or deactivating. 

OK thanks for the post mate.

[rpbcps]

Daz,

The GEG is stamp of AOC employee George E Goll, see link below for more info. about him.

2nd photo is the British proof house stamp from the deactivation process.

P stamp on barrel is a test firing proof.

Hope that helps?

Edited December 8, 2024 by rpbcps
Typo

[rpbcps]

Yes...."Rifleman Demonstrator", that is a cool title.... 🧐

[Countryboy77]

The Crossed swords are the Deact stamp. Seen them on other types of deacts.

[Dazza]

1 hour ago, Countryboy77 said:

The Crossed swords are the Deact stamp. Seen them on other types of deacts.

Thanks very much.

[Countryboy77]

Yes the crossed swords have the 'D' on one side and the 'A' on the other with the year under it the house did the deactivation. I've seen this on enfield rifles to russian dpms.Yours looks like eigther 1990 or 93' or 98'or even 80's Looks like stamp was double struck to make it deep enough.Cool Deactivated gun Birmingham or London proof House. The "x" marks are usually for guns taken out of service for one reason or another broken,worn,training aid,or just retired from service.When I see x stamps I typically avoid the parts but somthing like a grip frame or lower you know is fine to use where a bolt might be more questionable.Though a part may be serviceable it likely came off a decomissiones gun with issues.

Edited December 9, 2024 by Countryboy77
My uploaded image didn't take.

[rpbcps]

1 hour ago, Countryboy77 said:

Yes the crossed swords have the 'D' on one side and the 'A' on the other with the year under it the house did the deactivation. I've seen this on enfield rifles to russian dpms.Yours looks like eigther 1990 or 93' or 98'or even 80's Looks like stamp was double struck to make it deep enough.Cool Deactivated gun Birmingham or London proof House. The "x" marks are usually for guns taken out of service for one reason or another broken,worn,training aid,or just retired from service.When I see x stamps I typically avoid the parts but somthing like a grip frame or lower you know is fine to use where a bolt might be more questionable.Though a part may be serviceable it likely came off a decomissiones gun with issues.

Countryboy77 is correct, and there are only two proof houses in the UK, each  with their distinctive mark:

Crossed swords with DA and the year round them for the Birmingham Proof House; and

DA over a sword and the year for the London Proof House.

Edited December 9, 2024 by rpbcps
Typo

[Dazza]

11 hours ago, Countryboy77 said:

Yes the crossed swords have the 'D' on one side and the 'A' on the other with the year under it the house did the deactivation. I've seen this on enfield rifles to russian dpms.Yours looks like eigther 1990 or 93' or 98'or even 80's Looks like stamp was double struck to make it deep enough.Cool Deactivated gun Birmingham or London proof House. The "x" marks are usually for guns taken out of service for one reason or another broken,worn,training aid,or just retired from service.When I see x stamps I typically avoid the parts but somthing like a grip frame or lower you know is fine to use where a bolt might be more questionable.Though a part may be serviceable it likely came off a decomissiones gun with issues.

Thanks Countryboy it was deactivated in 1990.

[Dazza]

10 hours ago, rpbcps said:

Countryboy77 is correct, and there are only two proof houses in the UK, each  with their distinctive mark:

Crossed swords with DA and the year round them for the Birmingham Proof House; and

DA over a sword and the year for the London Proof House.

Thanks as always for your knowledge Richard.

[Dazza]

10 hours ago, rpbcps said:

Countryboy77 is correct, and there are only two proof houses in the UK, each  with their distinctive mark:

Crossed swords with DA and the year round them for the Birmingham Proof House; and

DA over a sword and the year for the London Proof House.

Hi Richard, it also has the 1st stamp on it DA 94 behind the bolt handle.

[rpbcps]

9 hours ago, Dazza said:

Hi Richard, it also has the 1st stamp on it DA 94 behind the bolt handle.

Is that stamp on the bolt?

[Dazza]

17 hours ago, rpbcps said:

Is that stamp on the bolt?

Here & Here

[rpbcps]

Daz,

Looks like the bolt was originally with another weapon that had its deactivation controlled at the London proof house. It appears somewhere down the line, the original bolt which was controlled by Birmingham proof house, with the rest of your M1A1, has been changed with another.

Can you confirm which proof house issued the deactivation certificate you have, and the date of issue?

Can you also confirm the date on each proof house stamp ? Difficult to make out in photos, or is just my eyes 🥸

I am intrigued.

 

 

[Dazza]

17 hours ago, rpbcps said:

Daz,

Looks like the bolt was originally with another weapon that had its deactivation controlled at the London proof house. It appears somewhere down the line, the original bolt which was controlled by Birmingham proof house, with the rest of your M1A1, has been changed with another.

Can you confirm which proof house issued the deactivation certificate you have, and the date of issue?

Can you also confirm the date on each proof house stamp ? Difficult to make out in photos, or is just my eyes 🥸

I am intrigued.

 

 

Hi Richard, thanks for the help. On my deactivation certificate the Proof House was Birmingham 1990, I think the stamp behind the bolt is 1994 and the other one I think is 1990 (not easy to read that one).

[rpbcps]

2 hours ago, Dazza said:

Hi Richard, thanks for the help. On my deactivation certificate the Proof House was Birmingham 1990, I think the stamp behind the bolt is 1994 and the other one I think is 1990 (not easy to read that one).

Yes, sometimes they are difficult to read. Sounds like, as I suspected the bolt has been changed out with another deactivation between 1990 and 1994. The bolt is an M1A1 bolt and not an M1 bolt by any chance?

[Dazza]

1 hour ago, rpbcps said:

Yes, sometimes they are difficult to read. Sounds like, as I suspected the bolt has been changed out with another deactivation between 1990 and 1994. The bolt is an M1A1 bolt and not an M1 bolt by any chance?

I don't know, how can I tell?

[rpbcps]

The M1 bolt incorporates a firing pin mechanism similar to the 1928A1 guns, but the M1A1 bolt was simpified, and has a protrusion machined onto the bolt face to act as a firing pin. 

Top is 28 Bolt, centre is M1 ad bottom M1A1.

Mind you depending on the deactivation work carried out on your bolt a lot of the bolt may be milled away.

Dectivated M 1 bolt below:

Note hole for the hammer to hit the firing pin below cocking handle = M1

M1 Bolt assembly:

The M1A1 Bolt has no hole, see below:

 

 

Edited December 12, 2024 by rpbcps
Added M1 bolt Assembly image

[Countryboy77]

2 hours ago, rpbcps said:

The M1 bolt incorporates a flooiring pin mechanism similar to the 1928A1 guns, but the M1A1 bolt was simpified, and has a protrusion machined onto the bolt face to act as a firing pin. 

Top is 28 Bolt, centre is M1 ad bottom M1A1.

Mind you depending on the deactivation work carried out on your bolt a lot of the bolt may be milled away.

Dectivated M 1 bolt below:

Note hole for the hammer to hit the firing pin below cocking handle = M1

M1 Bolt assembly:

The M1A1 Bolt has no hole, see below:

 

 

What's with the lightning cuts on that early M1 bolt that's deactivated.How deep does that go?

Edited December 13, 2024 by Countryboy77

[Jbeasley48]

I've been a member of the board for some time now and enjoy reading the issues and answers.   On this particular subject I have read with much interest about markings, etc., but find I know knowing on how a M1 or M1A1 is demil'ed in the UK and appears far different here in the US, especially the reciever and bolt.  What is done to make them inoperable and get the associated stamps? 

[Countryboy77]

Changed a lot over the years but generally barrel welded and drilled under handguard,sometimes a pin through the chamber welded in,bolt head destroyed by torch,cut at angle ect now bolt welded in place and receivers welded togetger( the older Deactivated guns have less features and triggers woukd move as well as bolt and only the bolt head barrel and sear welded.

[rpbcps]

14 hours ago, Countryboy77 said:

What's with the lightning cuts on that early M1 bolt that's deactivated.How deep does that go?

When section 8 of the Firearms (Amendment) Act 1988 was introduced in the UK, there was little direction about what work was officially required, for a deactivated firearm to "cease to be a firearm".

So, as I understood it, you find a variety of modifications, cuts and changes made to early deactivations.

So I presume, whoever deactivated this M1 decided the bolt needed to be milled away? I don't own that example now, I sold it on a few years ago, but from memory I'd say the depth was, excuse my use of metric, a couple of millimetres.

 

Edited December 13, 2024 by rpbcps
Typo, again🤫