Introduction, inherited a Savage Thompson - help with information?

[forindooruseonly]

Hello, I have been on the forum for a while just lurking.  I've inherited a Savage made Auto-Ordnance Thompson, waiting for paperwork to clear.  I've attached a photo, since this is the place for Thompson collectors... The gun has a Santa Ana city property tag on it, also which I've also tried to show.  I am not new to machineguns and grew up shooting this one, but we never looked into the history of this one.  And since I never figured I'd own it, I never bothered to look educate myself on the variety of Thompson aside from the most basic knowledge.  

So the serial number is S-7104x, is there a way to find out when this was made?  Did Santa Ana buy them new or did they purchase surplus left over from the war? Thank you for any info you can provide.  If there is any photos that need to be taken for identification I can definitely provide them.

[Rekraps]

Others will know much more than I, but it sure appears to be Santa Ana police gun... you are one lucky dog!

[Countryboy77]

Hell yea! Very Early Savage! What a Beauty, you Won the lottery,I know how you feel! Everything is correct from the flat ejector to the knurled controlls.What they call a 'Comercial'Savage. Does the buffer in the rear have a hole? You got a Very nice example. Suggestion,buy spare parts now there aren't getting cheaper or easier to find.

[rpbcps]

Indeed, a very nice early Savage, complete with early (Colt?) magazine catch, in which the hole found in later magazine catches, introduced for the manufacturing process, is absent. 

Is the L Drum pre-war Colt or WW2 manufactured?

[Dpedersen]

Fantastic Savage!!!!!

[TD.]

forindooruseonly,

Welcome to the Thompson forum. It is the best place on the Internet to learn about Thompson submachine guns. You have a great family gun. Congratulations. I will offer my thoughts on your early Savage Thompson but first I have a couple of questions. That said, I do like what I see.

Is there a letter W inside a Crown on the top left side of the receiver? See below photo with red arrow.

I would like to see a picture of the right-side receiver nose, the part of the receiver the barrel screws into. There should be an index line on the receiver that matches another index line on the barrel collar. I am looking for any additional markings, perhaps one that appears to be a wavy looking arrow, another Crown mark, the letter E, etc. 

Thanks!

[skoda]

That's a really cool property tag. The style of it really dates it. 

Do like the tag says and don't remove it!!!! 

[TSMG28]

forindooruseonly,

The drum appears to be a West Hurley L drum, but more pics would be needed to confirm that. 
 

We will need a FOIA to confirm this is a Savage Commercial, but it appears to have all of those characteristics. The recoil spring guide does appear to have a center hole based on the edge radius on the back. 
 

Congrats on a very special Savage Thompson. 

[forindooruseonly]

Thank you all for the welcome, and I am very grateful to have recieved the gun.  I am leaving tomorrow morning for out of town work. I'll be back in a few days and I will post the requested photos then.  There are a few drums and box magazines, I will dig those out as well.  I didn't realize how much variety there are in the drums until reading up on the forum.

I also didn't know it was possible to FOIA the history of a machine gun - I looked on the ATF website and sure enough, there is a link.  However, what do I ask as far as date range and what to look for?

6 hours ago, Countryboy77 said:

Hell yea! Very Early Savage! What a Beauty, you Won the lottery,I know how you feel! Everything is correct from the flat ejector to the knurled controlls.What they call a 'Comercial'Savage. Does the buffer in the rear have a hole? You got a Very nice example. Suggestion,buy spare parts now there aren't getting cheaper or easier to find.

What parts should I try to source? I'm sure my father had some spare parts stashed away, but we are still plowing through the stuff and there are many parts, tools and general stuff that I don't recognize.

[Countryboy77]

Whoever left that to you must have thought pretty highly of you. Such a nice gun says a bit about its owner. Some of us would have a hard time getting into this hobby of it wasn't for inheritance.

[forindooruseonly]

Thank you.  Yes, we were close.  I would trade it all away to have him back though.  That said, obviously I'm not going to sell it no matter what the price goes to.  I am in the boat where I can't afford to buy any of the more valuable NFA stuff, so I'm fortunate to have this and a few others out of the estate.

[TD.]

forindooruseonly,

The information on the possible letter W mark inside a Crown and a picture of the right-side receiver nose markings, if any, will provide a lot of information as to the past history of your Savage Thompson. Needless to say, it is an early Savage Thompson submachine gun with the New York address on the right-side receiver. I will also be glad to assist you filing a Freedom of Information Act (FOIA) request. I use FOIA information in many of my stories/books for documentation as to past history.  

There are two Thompson associations that have private show and shoots in Ohio each year. As we figure out the history of your Thompson, you should consider joining one or both (40 bucks a year) and attending a show and shoot, especially if you live anywhere close to Ohio. You will have a great time! 

[Motorcar]

forindooruseonly,

Have TD help you with the FOIA request. He helped me with two separate ones that resulted in the discovery of serial numbers on a whole bunch of Thompsons that had been at an LE Agency for decades, and verified where mine had resided since the war. None of that would have come to light without Tom's expertise and help. You have a real gem there and the history discovery may be equally satisfying.

[TSMG28]

Forindooruseonly,

I will gladly assist with identifying any of your magazines once you dig them out. You can post the pictures here or send them to me directly, whichever you prefer. 

Definitely take advantage of Tom’s assistance with your FOIA request. The results will be enlightening.

Hope to see you next year at one of the show and shoots. You and your history will both be well received.

Roger

[Rekraps]

Told ya! These guys know their stuff.

[forindooruseonly]

I have better photos of the gun, there is definitely a W with a crown proof mark, as well as better photos of the identifying marks.  If there are any other markings or stamps internally that would help, let me know.  

There are 3 drums, two are identical with Auto-Ordnance markings, the third is Auto-Ordnance West Hurley.  There are bunch of box mags, of the four I dug out most of them say "The Seymour Products Co, Seymour Conn" and then one was just stamped SWCO.  All looked nicely blued, but no markings other than that.  I am sure those are aftermarket.  If I come across any that are different, I'll post those up.

Also, there is a fitted hard case that looks to be generic and far newer than the gun, no markings except on the key which says "Excelsior Stamford Conn".  

I thank you for all of the assistance.  I will definitely get a FOIA request going and will message TD about how to go about it.  I am in Oklahoma, but would definitely consider going to a show and shoot, that sounds like a great time!

[TD.]

forindooruseonly,

I thought it was a Model of 1928 Thompson submachine gun purchased under the Cash & Carry program by the British Ministry of Supply (MoS) in early 1941. While not a Savage Commercial, it is a great example of a wartime Tommy Gun used by allied forces. You are very fortunate. I know everyone on this forum is jealous! Congratulations.

I am pressed for time at the moment but know you will receive a lot of comments from the forum members. I have answered your PM. Thank you for sharing.

[TSMG28]

forindooruseonly,

Your drums were all made by Auto-Ordnance when they were owned by Numrich in West Hurley, NY.  The one that is actually marked West Hurley, is referred to as an XL drum because it holds 38-39 rounds (not 40 as the name implies). Numrich repurposed and updated the drum Japanese dummy gun company MGC made for their Thompsons. The other two are true L drums that Numrich made starting in 1988.

You did not say whether your box mags are 20 or 30 rounds. I am guessing 30, since you say there are a number of Seymour’s. The SWCO mag is made by Sparks-Withington Company.  All are from WWII.

Your gun is from the same group as some I inspected a few months ago in Britain. As Tom mentioned, it is from the early guns A-O sold directly to the British in WWII.  It appears to have all of the characteristics of those guns.

Very nice gun!  Major congrats!

Edited December 20, 2024 by TSMG28

[rpbcps]

On 12/19/2024 at 3:55 PM, TD. said:

forindooruseonly,

I thought it was a Model of 1928 Thompson submachine gun purchased under the Cash & Carry program by the British Ministry of Supply (MoS) in early 1941. While not a Savage Commercial, it is a great example of a wartime Tommy Gun used by allied forces. You are very fortunate. I know everyone on this forum is jealous! Congratulations.

I am pressed for time at the moment but know you will receive a lot of comments from the forum members. I have answered your PM. Thank you for sharing.

The early Cash & Carry 1928's that arrived in the UK were well used throughout the war, so it is rare to see one in such good condition. 

The W / Crown inspection stamp on the front left-hand side of the receiver was used on pre-lend lease British Model of 1928’s.  I have two in my collection, deactivated due to UK firearms regulations, but both have been well used and abused.

Both of mine have been repaired during itheir service, which was not unusual; wartime usage of the Thompsons showed that many parts needed by unit armourers for repairs were recovered, or cannibalised, from unrepairable weapons in the field. Both of the examples in my collection had their original trigger frames replaced, which was not unusual to war time repairs of Thompsons. On one example a 2nd serial number been added to the trigger frame to match that of the receiver, the original serial number being scored out. 

One of my 1928's has ‘New York, NY’ address roll-marked on the right side at the rear of the receiver like yours, BUT it has  12 patent dates on the receiver.  I have learned from books written by members on this forum, the early Savage patent date marked 1928's were marked identical to the last 540 Colt Manufactured 1921’s, so ironically, the first Savage Model of 1928s were not stamped with the final patent for the 1928 modifications.
I see yours has patent numbers, not dates on the receiver; I read that from approx. S/N 26000, the omission of the Model of 1928 patent was corrected, when the marking dies on the Savage NY address 1928’s changed, and the 12 patent dates, where replaced with the 13 patent numbers. 

Yours is a lovely example, I'd love to have one like it in my colection.

Edited December 20, 2024 by rpbcps
Typo

[Countryboy77]

So if this is Not a Commercial Savage and an early Cash and Carry ,where's the Import Marks? Most of these Came back to the US via Interarms or Numrich from what I understand.I think the Foia may be pretty interesting and the only way to tell for sure. The 'w' in a crown ,where and when was that done.Unless Originally a war trophy before it went to market and sold to the City. 

[inertord]

49 minutes ago, Countryboy77 said:

So if this is Not a Commercial Savage and an early Cash and Carry ,where's the Import Marks? Most of these Came back to the US via Interarms or Numrich from what I understand.I think the Foia may be pretty interesting and the only way to tell for sure. The 'w' in a crown ,where and when was that done.Unless Originally a war trophy before it went to market and sold to the City. 

U.S. Import Marks were not required on firearms imported prior to 1968. 

[TD.]

Countryboy77,

Very few Savage Arms manufactured Thompson submachine guns are what collectors' term: Savage Commercial Thompsons. The first criteria when inspecting a Savage is to look for military markings. The "W" or Woolwich mark inside the Crown immediately indicates S-71043 is a British military procured Thompson gun. Period. No more discussion is necessary. If you look closely at the right receiver nose on the second set of pictures posted, you see the British Broad Arrow mark and the markings from an inspector at the Enfield Depot. See below picture crop. Again, S-71043 has a British military pedigree. It was on a ship headed to Great Britian in early 1941.

-

"Savage Commercial Thompson" is a collector term coined by long ago machine gun dealer Roger Cox. It is not an official Auto-Ordnance designation. The criteria for a Savage Commercial Thompson are the lack of all military markings and a documented sale to a customer (to date, always a law enforcement organization) in the early 1940s. Some Savage Thompson submachine guns scream "Commercial" but no documentation exists. Usually a Freedom of Information Act (FOIA) request will provide the documentation necessary to prove a commercial sale to a law enforcement organization. 

There are those in the Thompson community that use the collector term Commercial on a regular basis without knowing the criteria. There is no difference in the parts used on a Savage Commercial or one sold for military service. Each were pulled from the same production line, perhaps on the same day. The difference is the sale, military or commercial, to the end user.  Unfortunately, using the Commercial term based only on parts it is confusing to new members wanting to learn the different variations. I write extensively about the Savage Commercial Thompson in my third book, A Thompson Compendium. It is the authority on the subject. I would guess over the last 15 years, and with the help from many on this forum, I have collected the most complete database of known Savage Commercials in the USA. And my research continues.   

[rpbcps]

On 12/21/2024 at 1:40 AM, TD. said:

Countryboy77,

Very few Savage Arms manufactured Thompson submachine guns are what collectors' term: Savage Commercial Thompsons. The first criteria when inspecting a Savage is to look for military markings. The "W" or Woolwich mark inside the Crown immediately indicates S-71043 is a British military procured Thompson gun. Period. No more discussion is necessary. If you look closely at the right receiver nose on the second set of pictures posted, you see the British Broad Arrow mark and the markings from an inspector at the Enfield Depot. See below picture crop. Again, S-71043 has a British military pedigree. It was on a ship headed to Great Britian in early 1941.

-

"Savage Commercial Thompson" is a collector term coined by long ago machine gun dealer Roger Cox. It is not an official Auto-Ordnance designation. The criteria for a Savage Commercial Thompson are the lack of all military markings and a documented sale to a customer (to date, always a law enforcement organization) in the early 1940s. Some Savage Thompson submachine guns scream "Commercial" but no documentation exists. Usually a Freedom of Information Act (FOIA) request will provide the documentation necessary to prove a commercial sale to a law enforcement organization. 

There are those in the Thompson community that use the collector term Commercial on a regular basis without knowing the criteria. There is no difference in the parts used on a Savage Commercial or one sold for military service. Each were pulled from the same production line, perhaps on the same day. The difference is the sale, military or commercial, to the end user.  Unfortunately, using the Commercial term based only on parts it is confusing to new members wanting to learn the different variations. I write extensively about the Savage Commercial Thompson in my third book, A Thompson Compendium. It is the authority on the subject. I would guess over the last 15 years, and with the help from many on this forum, I have collected the most complete database of known Savage Commercials in the USA. And my research continues.   

I would recommend Tom's book, A Thompson Compendium, and indeed his other books which are all on my bookshelf. I have gained a lot of knowledge from them and other books published by members on this forum.🙏🏼

[Countryboy77]

On 12/20/2024 at 4:35 PM, inertord said:

U.S. Import Marks were not required on firearms imported prior to 1968. 

Ok,makes total sense.Knew somone would have the answer.Very Nice cash and Carry Thompson. Nicest one I've seen yet but wood appears redone or at least the pistol grip  as the wood profile is receded behind the rear of the trigger guard .So if it's a cash and carry if the barrel is Original it should have brittis nitro proof and other markings.Bolt too if it's original as it's the pressure bearing components they stamp I believe. 

 

Edited December 22, 2024 by Countryboy77