British WW2 LCE for Thompson magazines

[rpbcps]

In Feb 2011, I first stumbled upon the MGB and it has been an education for me for the last 14 years.
In the early days of my participation, I was reading more than writing it was it was then I came upon the pinned topic, Thompson Canvas Items. In that, II found pictures of what was described as "British Pattern 37 XXX Thompson Magazine Pouch". Since then, I have been looking for an example of that pouch for my collection, and almost 14 years on my patience paid off.  A few weeks ago, I discovered for sale, not just one, but two of these pouches.

The seller said these are the first pouches like this, that he has come across, among 1000s of 37 pattern pouches he has bought and sold over the last decade.
The first thing I noted on these pouches was there are no makers stamps nor British military markings in them, unusual for British and Commonwealth, manufactured webbing equipment (Load Carrying Equipment) from that era.

So I am wondering if these are actually British/ Commonwealth issued equipment. A lot of European countries used 37 pattern style LCE post WW2, and also TSMGs for a period, till they got their own arms factories back up and running. It is noted the pouches in question, do not have the usual belt fixtures encountered on 37 Pattern pouches.

Another possibility came to mind, could these have been a new design for 37 Patterns pouches, manufactured while looking for a solution to a problem that arose in late 1941. The reason behind this idea?

With the introduction of the Thompson into the British service from 1940, the more common 37 Pattern basic/ Bren pouches were used to carry Thompson XX magazines.

British soldiers in training with TSMG s and MKI or MK II Basic / Bren Pouches, from angle of photo it is difficult to ascertain which it is. 

Dispatch rider with TSMG and what appears to be a MKI Basic / Bren pouch due to it being so low on the belt

Without fear of plagiarism, in my research I referred to the website: www.karkeeweb.com.
In that I found confirmation that the 37 Pattern Basic / Bren magazine pouches were used to carry Thompson XX magazines by British and commonwealth soldiers.
“In 1939, the British infantry section comprised of 8 men; a commander and “No.'s. 1 to 7”. No.'s. 1 and 2 were the Bren group and No.'s. 2 to 7 carried rifles. Each man carried three Bren magazines, two in one Basic pouch and the third magazine in the other Basic pouch. Ammunition for their rifles, was carried in cotton bandoliers.

In 1941, Amendment No. 1 to S.A.T. Vol. 1, Pam. 4 was issued, which replaced the commander’s rifle, with a Thompson Machine Carbine. Therefore the Cotton bandolier was removed, though he still carried two Bren magazines. The Thompson XX magazines fitted into the other Basic pouch.” 

The British purchased over 500,000 TSMGs, both 1928 /1928A1's and M1 /M1A1's, the majority of Thompson magazines supplied for these guns where the XX mags. So they fitted into both the Mark I and Mark II Basic / Bren pouches, as well as the magazine boxes (tins) produced by the British to transport / store 10 Thompson XX magazines.

Scan down to my post, dated April 6, 2023, to see example of the British XX Magazine boxes

In chapter three of Tom Davis's excellent book, 'Great Britain- The Tommy Gun Story', he touches on the subject of pouches; in particular, the concerns of the British when the U.S War Department proposed changing all production of XX magazines to 30 round magazines in Dec. 1941.

The introduction of the 30 round magazines, became a problem for the British, as those magazines would not fit a 37 Pattern Mark 1 or II basic / Bren Pouch. So the British began to look for solutions, and according to Toms book, the purchase of the US style 30 round magazine bags was considered.

So perhaps the pouches I recently acquired were designed to fill this requirement, but not accepted into service?  Instead, in 1942 we saw the introduction, of the familiar design of the 37 Pattern Mark III Basic / Bren pouch. These pouches were ½-inch longer and replaced the Mark II pouch, and the 30 round Thompson magazines fitted these pouches comfortably.

Photo courtesy of James West found on page 59 of Tom Davis's book 'Great Britain- The Tommy Gun Story', demonstrating how the MK II pouch, (same size as the Mark I) on the left was too short to close flap on the 30 round magazines. MK III closes comfortably.

Interestingly enough, although the 30 round Thompson magazines fit the MK III pouches, looking at the photo above, courtesy of fellow MGB member John Dillinger, it appears the STEN magazines, 3rd from left, would be too long to fit into the MK III pouch? Something else to look into in the future.

The early Mark III pouches had the usual press-stud closure, but this changed quickly to a quick release buckle, which was simpler to manufacture than the press-stud fastener, and probably cheaper, there was a war being fought.  Another eventual addition to the pouch was an eyelet – called a grommet by the British Army – in the base of the pouch to allow water to drain out. That would have been handy for water born commando units, using the Thompson.

Gurkha armed with an M1A1 wearing a MKIII 37 Patt. Basic/ Bren pouch

As these pouches were designed to carry Bren magazines initially, there were no slots sewn into the pouches, to separate the magazines; unlike the pouch shown at the beginning of this topic. Logically, the same pouches could carry not only Bren and Thompson magazines, but Grenades and other ‘hardware’, so for the quartermaster it was less of a head ache having a universal pouch, rather than individual pouches for each weapon.

During my research trying to find an answer to the above, I did find out that there is another British army pouch designed for TSMG magazines.

A basic pouch was introduced in February 1944 for the Cavalry 1940 Pattern webbing equipment. This Pouch is very similar in design to the MK III 37 Pattern Basic / Bren Pouches, with the addition of a 2-inch aside piece to join it to the Back adjusting strap, and the typical 1-inch upper side strap found on Mills Cavalry Web Equipment.

 

As I don't think a Bren gun would be practical for horsemen (Cavalry), I am leaning towards this being for carrying Thompson 30 round magazines. If anyone can correct me on that, I am always interested in input.

The Australians were also known to have produced their own version of the 5 cell pouches for the XX magazines, and at least three have been owned by members of the forum, my colleague in Australia is trying to source one for me. 

Australian Soldier with Australian manufactured 5 cell XX pouch. Curiously enough he is carrying a M1A1 fitted with a 30 rnd magazine.

Link to a post on the forum on the subject of these pouches:  

This is a related earlier post on a similar subject, British 37 Pattern load carrying equipment pouches used for the Thompson Drum magazines.

Stay safe

Richard

 

 

 

Edited January 12 by rpbcps
40 Pattern pouches in wrong place

[John Dillinger]

Richard such an in depth analysis and a really interesting insight into Thompson magazine webbing. Of course the US Airborne Paratroopers carried 30 round Thompson XXX bandoliers as did the British Paratroopers for their Sten Guns but perhaps that’s for another day.However as I’ve mentioned it here’s a 7 cell Sten Gun Bandolier and it’s contents from my collection.

JD

[rpbcps]

Paul,

Thankyou and that is an excellent addition to the topic, love the pictures. 1944 dated and quick release buckles. Same date on a Mark III pouch I saw which had the quick release buckle, rather than the press-stud fastener. I wonder what year they changed the faster.

As I said above, I am curious if STEN mags fit the Mark III pouches. 

We'll have to look into that further.

Edited January 12 by rpbcps

[APEXgunparts]

There is something I can add here.
Its not the first time I have contributed a correction to the topic.
There is a seller on E-Bay that sells these Portuguese FBP magazine pouches as British.
The FBP was a postwar SMG that uses a magazine that is a copy of the STEN magazine and so they fit the pouch just fine.
The Portuguese military has a long standing connection to the British military which explains the similar pattern of pouch and the colour.
 

 

I have 4 of these pouches setting about 4 feet from me as I write this!
I use them for a number of SMG mags like OWEN and AUSTEN.
APEX has several hundred of these pouches inbound along with FBP/948 kits, bayonets and magazines.

Richard
 

 

[rpbcps]

14 hours ago, APEXgunparts said:

There is something I can add here.
Its not the first time I have contributed a correction to the topic.
There is a seller on E-Bay that sells these Portuguese FBP magazine pouches as British.
The FBP was a postwar SMG that uses a magazine that is a copy of the STEN magazine and so they fit the pouch just fine.
The Portuguese military has a long standing connection to the British military which explains the similar pattern of pouch and the colour.
 

 

I have 4 of these pouches setting about 4 feet from me as I write this!
I use them for a number of SMG mags like OWEN and AUSTEN.
APEX has several hundred of these pouches inbound along with FBP/948 kits, bayonets and magazines.

Richard
 

 

Richard,

Happy New year.

Love it when we get confirmation, I prefer to call it that than correction 😂

You confirmed my suspicion as mentioned in para 3 above👍:

"I am wondering if these are actually British/ Commonwealth issued equipment. A lot of European countries used 37 pattern style LCE post WW2, and also TSMGs for a period, till they got their own arms factories back up and running. It is noted the pouches in question, do not have the usual belt fixtures encountered on 37 Pattern pouches."am wondering if these are actually British/ Commonwealth issued equipment. A lot of European countries used 37 pattern style LCE post WW2, and also TSMGs for a period, till they got their own arms factories back up and running. It is noted the pouches in question, do not have the usual belt fixtures encountered on 37 Pattern pouches."

If anyone wants a good range pouch, I'd recommend you buy one of these from Richard at Apex. Perfect for for three 30 rnd mags, and built to last.

Stay safe

Richard

 

Edited January 13 by rpbcps
Typo

[APEXgunparts]

I should have phrased that better, you did say that these didn't match what is known about British web gear.
APEX also has one type of canvas Madsen M50 magazine pouches that look like they were made by a British contractor based on the colour and style.

I also agree that the pouches you picture are a good choice for use with many SMG's.
I like that they will fit on any belt unlike the British pattern 37 pouches that are part of a "system"
The FBP/948 pouches I scrounged at APEX were absolutely filthy, but washed up well with simple green, water and a stiff brush.
I had to replace several of the button snaps for the flap as the brass fasteners had been crushed a bit.
It is why I found these pouches, they were culled long ago and left in a pallet of assorted material.

I didn't try any Thompson magazines in them because APEX has a good supply of original USGI 20 round magazine pouches and a bunch of the French issue pouches that fit the 30 rounders and have a shoulder strap.

Richard

[rpbcps]

Richard,

Agreed the 37 pattern pouch belt attachments were not the best, but they were field tested over many years...right through the 1944 pattern and into the 1958 pattern web equipment.

I have come across some post WW2 Belgium pouches, with the same belt attachments that resembled British web equipment too.

The more recent LCE used by most armed forces is a big improvement, thankfully.

Stay safe 

Richard

[rpbcps]

On 1/13/2025 at 7:59 AM, APEXgunparts said:

There is something I can add here.
Its not the first time I have contributed a correction to the topic.
There is a seller on E-Bay that sells these Portuguese FBP magazine pouches as British.
The FBP was a postwar SMG that uses a magazine that is a copy of the STEN magazine and so they fit the pouch just fine.
The Portuguese military has a long standing connection to the British military which explains the similar pattern of pouch and the colour.
 

 

I have 4 of these pouches setting about 4 feet from me as I write this!
I use them for a number of SMG mags like OWEN and AUSTEN.
APEX has several hundred of these pouches inbound along with FBP/948 kits, bayonets and magazines.

Richard
 

 

Richard,

I have just come across another 37 Pattern style pouch, with leather fasteners, but listed as Italian for the BM59.

Looks like these may comfortably accommodate four 30 rnd Thompson magazines also, maybe worth trying. Would make a very good range pouch.

Edited January 20 by rpbcps
Removed photo

[APEXgunparts]

Interesting, APEX Gun Parts has these too, in 2 different grades.
I never thought to try SMG magazines in them.
Some of these we have in quantity so then have tier pricing.

British Lewis / Vickers MG P37 Gunners Accessory Pouch, Khaki Canvas

British Lewis / Vickers MG P37 Gunners Accessory Pouch, Khaki Canvas *Good*

This next pouch I used for my Japanese Type 99 magazines, even has a shoulder strap.

British WWII Magazine and Ammunition Carrier, Gas Mask Bag w/Shoulder Strap, Green Canvas

It also fits the French Chatellerault FM 24/29 magazines, but I have an original pouch I use as it has the place for the monopod.

Richard

 

[Roland the Thompsongunner]

Here is an odd pouch I picked up years ago. Not sure if it has been modified or was made and marked like this from new. The lift the dot is the US type and the rear loop is different than most British gear. 

[Roland the Thompsongunner]

Here is an Australian pouch that was made for the Owen Smg but 30 round mags fit well

[Roland the Thompsongunner]

Here are a few other Australian made pouches. One is US marked but the others were also used by many pacific US troops

[rpbcps]

9 hours ago, Roland the Thompsongunner said:

Here are a few other Australian made pouches. One is US marked but the others were also used by many pacific US troops

 

9 hours ago, Roland the Thompsongunner said:

Here is an Australian pouch that was made for the Owen Smg but 30 round mags fit well

Excellent collection / pictures. I have already seen a similar photo in the past of the US marked, 37 Pattern style pouch with the regular U.S. style closure. I wonder if they were made as 'reverse lend lease', with the different style of belt attachment.

That type of belt attachment was also used for pouches issued to British army drivers. The regular style of 37 pattern pouch attachment with position on the body, got in the way of driving, or made them very uncomfortable I read.

The Australian manufacture, US style 5 cell pouches, being made to also accept 30 round magazines is interesting. That does explain the picture of the soldier with the M1 shown above, wearing that style of pouch.

Thankyou for posting those pictures, excellent addition to this topic. It is only on this forum, with the contribution of collectors like yourself sharing such information, that we are able to increase our knowledge on topics like this. 🙏🏼

Edited January 21 by rpbcps
Typo

[rpbcps]

9 hours ago, Roland the Thompsongunner said:

Here are a few other Australian made pouches. One is US marked but the others were also used by many pacific US troops

Again, thankyou for posting these pictures 🙏🏼

[rpbcps]

Here is a link to an example of the British 37 Pattern MT Pouch, (MT = Motor Transport), dated 1944, manufactured by Associated Cutters (AC).

https://talesfromthesupplydepot.blog/2021/10/09/37-pattern-mt-pouch/

I have come across several other manufacturers of these, F.Ltd, F.S.S.,  Mills Equipment Company, R.P.Ltd., and BAGCRAFT Ltd, all dated 1944.

 

[Canuck]

To Richard in the UK, I was very pleased to see you start this topic and your pictures in the first post.

To Richard at Apex, thank you for clarifying what SMG these pouches were actually made for. It's a bonus the Thompson mags fit so well.

I have had two of these for so long I can't remember when or where I got them. Absolutely no markings on them at all.

Mystery solved!

[rpbcps]

6 hours ago, Canuck said:

To Richard in the UK, I was very pleased to see you start this topic and your pictures in the first post.

To Richard at Apex, thank you for clarifying what SMG these pouches were actually made for. It's a bonus the Thompson mags fit so well.

I have had two of these for so long I can't remember when or where I got them. Absolutely no markings on them at all.

Mystery solved!

Canuck,

It is always good when we get confirmation of what we have in our collections. That is the good thing about this forum, so many subject matter experts, so we seem to usually get an answer to any questions we may have.

[rpbcps]

Although, I am yet to find reference to them in a handbook,  (or Pamphlet, as the British Army called them), there is also another set of pouches that is sometimes mentioned, but I am yet to find an example.

The website Karkee.co.uk has this to say about the pouches in question:

"Of all the Pouches authorised this is the most puzzling. The nomenclature in List of Changes (L.of C.) §B5789  is clear, “C.M.T.” being the Carbine, Machine, Thompson.

http://www.karkeeweb.com/patterns/1937/LoC/attached/html/LoC_B5789.html

but no method of wearing is given. In form, it is a mini Basic pouch, but with a flap lid in place of the more normal box lid. A 3-bar buckle, on a reduction weave chape, is fitted at the top, just like the Basic pouch. However, no belt hooks were provided, nor are there stitching guides to indicate an incompletely finished product. The only other information was the Strap, Web, 1-in. x 30-in. that was also notified in the L. of C.. It is too well-made to be a temporary, or supply Carrier, to be thrown away after it reaches its destination - unless it needed to be sturdily made for use as a throw-away by Airborne troops…?"

Pictures and further information can be found at: 

http://www.karkeeweb.com/patterns/1937/1937_associated_equipment_attached.html

Has anyone on the forum came across any  British Carbine, Machine, Thompson, (C.M.T.) pouches?

 

 

Edited January 26 by rpbcps
Grammar

[rpbcps]

After posting the information about the CMT pouch yesterday, a pair came up for sale here in the UK.

Manufactured by 'Princess Silk Shade' in 1942, a pair of nice unissued pouches. It still puzzles everyone how these were supposed to be carried, having no belt attachments.

One idea is that they were designed to be worn above the Basic / Bren pouches, and secured to the cross-straps, which was also attached to the basic / Bren pouches below them.

 

 

Edited January 28 by rpbcps
Typo

[Mk VII]

Looks like you wear it round the neck halter style, like the Utility pouches.  Can you pass a strap behind the sewn-on bit?

[rpbcps]

That is what Karkeeweb.com said, but sounds very impractical to me, even if worn under a para smock, which was another suggestion. 🤔

[rpbcps]

10 minutes ago, Mk VII said:

Looks like you wear it round the neck halter style, like the Utility pouches.  Can you pass a strap behind the sewn-on bit?

I am not sure if you can pass a strap behind the sewn-on bit, I have never seen any in the 'flesh' yet. I am curious about that myself.

In the karkeeweb.com link is saying they came with:

"Stores Ref. A1/AA 1502 Pouch, magazine, C.M.T., strap, web, 1-in. x 30-in."

[Roland the Thompsongunner]

Those CMT pouches are very cool will have to keep an eye out for those. Does anyone have information on this 3 cell pouch. I bought it a while back to research it a bit. 20 round mags are too short and 30 are a bit long so not for Thompson as far as I can tell

[APEXgunparts]

That pouch looks like the ones we have for the MADSEN M50 / M53.

Madsen M-50 Magazine Pouch, Canvas

One picture shows the 3 slightly different variations we have.
Its mostly the snaps that are the obvious difference.

APEX Gun Parts also has the same pouch in green.

Madsen M-50 Mag Pouch w/ Black Buttons, Canvas

Richard

 

[rpbcps]

3 hours ago, APEXgunparts said:

That pouch looks like the ones we have for the MADSEN M50 / M53.

Madsen M-50 Magazine Pouch, Canvas

One picture shows the 3 slightly different variations we have.
Its mostly the snaps that are the obvious difference.

APEX Gun Parts also has the same pouch in green.

Madsen M-50 Mag Pouch w/ Black Buttons, Canvas

Richard

 

Richard,

Do you have any British CMT pouches also?

All the best

Richard