British WW2 LCE for Thompson magazines

[APEXgunparts]

2 hours ago, rpbcps said:

Richard,

Do you have any British CMT pouches also?

All the best

Richard

Good question.
A lot of the "soft goods" in smaller quantities we don't spend the time to actually list for sale.
That is exactly the kind of item that winds up in our "warehouse Clearance box set"
We list 5 or 10 of them about every week.
You might to search for them and see if there is anything that you can use.

Richard
 

[johnsonlmg41]

These pouches are also being marketed as Italian SMG pouches by centerfire.  They do have markings on the inside, but I can't make them out?  I guess we'll have to refer to them as "euro" smg pouches, since the origin seems unknown?

[APEXgunparts]

18 hours ago, johnsonlmg41 said:

These pouches are also being marketed as Italian SMG pouches by centerfire.  They do have markings on the inside, but I can't make them out?  I guess we'll have to refer to them as "euro" smg pouches, since the origin seems unknown?

Yes, the importer supplied them to CFS along with the LF57 parts sets.
What may not be known is the LF57's came out of Portugal along with FBP M/948's.
So, the FBP pouches were just thrown in with those LF57 kits.

Richard
 

[johnsonlmg41]

Years ago I saw literally over a ton of FBP's all NIB....ready to be cut up.  They are probably still sitting there?  Lots of spare mags, but no pouches?  Maybe they forgot to order them and they all stayed in Portugal?  LOL

Quality pouch though!

[rpbcps]

On 1/27/2025 at 9:10 PM, Mk VII said:

Looks like you wear it round the neck halter style, like the Utility pouches.  Can you pass a strap behind the sewn-on bit?

The CMT pouches are now in my possession, so I can answer your question.. yes, there is an opening for a strap behind the sewn-on bit., see below.

Four XX mags fit into the pouch nicely though, a snug fit. 

 

 

Edited February 19 by rpbcps
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[rpbcps]

On 1/12/2025 at 12:57 PM, rpbcps said:

In Feb 2011, I first stumbled upon the MGB and it has been an education for me for the last 14 years.
In the early days of my participation, I was reading more than writing it was it was then I came upon the pinned topic, Thompson Canvas Items. In that, II found pictures of what was described as "British Pattern 37 XXX Thompson Magazine Pouch". Since then, I have been looking for an example of that pouch for my collection, and almost 14 years on my patience paid off.  A few weeks ago, I discovered for sale, not just one, but two of these pouches.

The seller said these are the first pouches like this, that he has come across, among 1000s of 37 pattern pouches he has bought and sold over the last decade.
The first thing I noted on these pouches was there are no makers stamps nor British military markings in them, unusual for British and Commonwealth, manufactured webbing equipment (Load Carrying Equipment) from that era.

So I am wondering if these are actually British/ Commonwealth issued equipment. A lot of European countries used 37 pattern style LCE post WW2, and also TSMGs for a period, till they got their own arms factories back up and running. It is noted the pouches in question, do not have the usual belt fixtures encountered on 37 Pattern pouches.

Another possibility came to mind, could these have been a new design for 37 Patterns pouches, manufactured while looking for a solution to a problem that arose in late 1941. The reason behind this idea?

With the introduction of the Thompson into the British service from 1940, the more common 37 Pattern basic/ Bren pouches were used to carry Thompson XX magazines.

British soldiers in training with TSMG s and MKI or MK II Basic / Bren Pouches, from angle of photo it is difficult to ascertain which it is. 

Dispatch rider with TSMG and what appears to be a MKI Basic / Bren pouch due to it being so low on the belt

Without fear of plagiarism, in my research I referred to the website: www.karkeeweb.com.
In that I found confirmation that the 37 Pattern Basic / Bren magazine pouches were used to carry Thompson XX magazines by British and commonwealth soldiers.
“In 1939, the British infantry section comprised of 8 men; a commander and “No.'s. 1 to 7”. No.'s. 1 and 2 were the Bren group and No.'s. 2 to 7 carried rifles. Each man carried three Bren magazines, two in one Basic pouch and the third magazine in the other Basic pouch. Ammunition for their rifles, was carried in cotton bandoliers.

In 1941, Amendment No. 1 to S.A.T. Vol. 1, Pam. 4 was issued, which replaced the commander’s rifle, with a Thompson Machine Carbine. Therefore the Cotton bandolier was removed, though he still carried two Bren magazines. The Thompson XX magazines fitted into the other Basic pouch.” 

The British purchased over 500,000 TSMGs, both 1928 /1928A1's and M1 /M1A1's, the majority of Thompson magazines supplied for these guns where the XX mags. So they fitted into both the Mark I and Mark II Basic / Bren pouches, as well as the magazine boxes (tins) produced by the British to transport / store 10 Thompson XX magazines.

Scan down to my post, dated April 6, 2023, to see example of the British XX Magazine boxes

In chapter three of Tom Davis's excellent book, 'Great Britain- The Tommy Gun Story', he touches on the subject of pouches; in particular, the concerns of the British when the U.S War Department proposed changing all production of XX magazines to 30 round magazines in Dec. 1941.

The introduction of the 30 round magazines, became a problem for the British, as those magazines would not fit a 37 Pattern Mark 1 or II basic / Bren Pouch. So the British began to look for solutions, and according to Toms book, the purchase of the US style 30 round magazine bags was considered.

So perhaps the pouches I recently acquired were designed to fill this requirement, but not accepted into service?  Instead, in 1942 we saw the introduction, of the familiar design of the 37 Pattern Mark III Basic / Bren pouch. These pouches were ½-inch longer and replaced the Mark II pouch, and the 30 round Thompson magazines fitted these pouches comfortably.

Photo courtesy of James West found on page 59 of Tom Davis's book 'Great Britain- The Tommy Gun Story', demonstrating how the MK II pouch, (same size as the Mark I) on the left was too short to close flap on the 30 round magazines. MK III closes comfortably.

Interestingly enough, although the 30 round Thompson magazines fit the MK III pouches, looking at the photo above, courtesy of fellow MGB member John Dillinger, it appears the STEN magazines, 3rd from left, would be too long to fit into the MK III pouch? Something else to look into in the future.

The early Mark III pouches had the usual press-stud closure, but this changed quickly to a quick release buckle, which was simpler to manufacture than the press-stud fastener, and probably cheaper, there was a war being fought.  Another eventual addition to the pouch was an eyelet – called a grommet by the British Army – in the base of the pouch to allow water to drain out. That would have been handy for water born commando units, using the Thompson.

Gurkha armed with an M1A1 wearing a MKIII 37 Patt. Basic/ Bren pouch

As these pouches were designed to carry Bren magazines initially, there were no slots sewn into the pouches, to separate the magazines; unlike the pouch shown at the beginning of this topic. Logically, the same pouches could carry not only Bren and Thompson magazines, but Grenades and other ‘hardware’, so for the quartermaster it was less of a head ache having a universal pouch, rather than individual pouches for each weapon.

During my research trying to find an answer to the above, I did find out that there is another British army pouch designed for TSMG magazines.

A basic pouch was introduced in February 1944 for the Cavalry 1940 Pattern webbing equipment. This Pouch is very similar in design to the MK III 37 Pattern Basic / Bren Pouches, with the addition of a 2-inch aside piece to join it to the Back adjusting strap, and the typical 1-inch upper side strap found on Mills Cavalry Web Equipment.

 

As I don't think a Bren gun would be practical for horsemen (Cavalry), I am leaning towards this being for carrying Thompson 30 round magazines. If anyone can correct me on that, I am always interested in input.

The Australians were also known to have produced their own version of the 5 cell pouches for the XX magazines, and at least three have been owned by members of the forum, my colleague in Australia is trying to source one for me. 

Australian Soldier with Australian manufactured 5 cell XX pouch. Curiously enough he is carrying a M1A1 fitted with a 30 rnd magazine.

Link to a post on the forum on the subject of these pouches:  

This is a related earlier post on a similar subject, British 37 Pattern load carrying equipment pouches used for the Thompson Drum magazines.

Stay safe

Richard

 

 

 

After I posted the photos above, Tom Davis mentioned to me that he believed I had attributed incorrectly, the photo of the "Australian soldier with the 5 cell pouch". Today, I had time to go over some old Topics, and found this one from 2015, posted by azboater. 

 

 

In this akboater posted the same photo, with what we believe is the correct details.
"A fusilier of the Royal Scots provides covering fire with his Thompson sub-machine gun in the village of Namma in Burma, October 1944"
Thank you Tom for that correction, and the picture adds more intrigue now. This is the first picture I have seen of a British soldier using a XX mag 5 cell pouch

[APEXgunparts]

On 1/13/2025 at 12:59 AM, APEXgunparts said:

There is something I can add here.
Its not the first time I have contributed a correction to the topic.
There is a seller on E-Bay that sells these Portuguese FBP magazine pouches as British.
The FBP was a postwar SMG that uses a magazine that is a copy of the STEN magazine and so they fit the pouch just fine.
The Portuguese military has a long standing connection to the British military which explains the similar pattern of pouch and the colour.
 

 

I have 4 of these pouches setting about 4 feet from me as I write this!
I use them for a number of SMG mags like OWEN and AUSTEN.
APEX has several hundred of these pouches inbound along with FBP/948 kits, bayonets and magazines.

Richard
 

 

 

APEX Gun Parts has finally listed for sale the FBP M/948 magazine pouches (the ones shown in the above pictures)
They are a handy sized pouch for any 9MM SMG magazines of about a 32 round capacity.

FBP M/948 Magazine Pouch, 3-Cell, for 32rd Magazines

 

Richard

[rpbcps]

On 1/27/2025 at 9:24 PM, rpbcps said:

I am not sure if you can pass a strap behind the sewn-on bit, I have never seen any in the 'flesh' yet. I am curious about that myself.

In the karkeeweb.com link is saying they came with:

"Stores Ref. A1/AA 1502 Pouch, magazine, C.M.T., strap, web, 1-in. x 30-in."

Over the last few months I have been purchasing various pieces to put together a set of mismatched Pattern 37 webbing. Initially I bought the two basic pouches, to demonstrate the differences between the MK II and Mark III capacity. Already shown above, in James Wests photo in my initial post.

So I have a former RAF Blue/Grey webbing MK III, for the 30 rnd Thompson mags, and a Army Green MKII for 20 rnd magazines.

Then CMT pouch question came up, "how were they worn having no belt attachments?", (as shown earlier in this topic). So I sourced a Pattern 37 Belt and a pair of cross straps to put the pouches together.

I then confirmed a CMT pouch, fitted to a cross strap, could be worn above the MKII pouch, see picture below. On the right hand side the MKIII, (as you look at picture), holds the 30 rnd magazines. The left hand MKII is loaded with XX mags and the CMT pouch above the MKIII, also holds XX mags.

In reality, the platoon leader in a British platoon at the time would also be carrying other munition in their pouches, as well as their Thompson magazines. These could include magazines for the platoons Bren gun team, hand grenades, etc.

The LCE when assembled is a good way to demonstrate them in displays also...now I need a manikin🤔

Edited Tuesday at 05:53 PM by rpbcps
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