Bought My First 1928A1 - UK

[Dazza]

It has matching serial No’s one on the receiver the other under the receiver when the butt stock has been removed. It says in Franks book there is a serial No roll marked on the trigger frame, nothing on mine.

It has deactivation marks on it from 1989  and 2014 (they had to re-issue the lost certificate in 2014) they didn’t deactivate it to latest spec as it’s performing as per pre 1995 spec. The deactivation was done at Birmingham England on both stampings. it cocks, dryfires and can be disassembled.

It has the ‘WB’ stamp on the receiver and it has the Ordnance Wheel stamp, not the ‘Flaming Bomb’ so I guess it’s a later AO gun although serial no. 63331 seems quite early to me considering that Bridgeport made 323,900 1928A1’s at the AO factory (From franks book). I think mine must be 1941 or 1942 manufactured as possible they all were?

I've been told the 30rnd stick magazine is incorrect, it is Seymour made., I'll be looking to replace that with a drum magazine. 

It says early production models at AO had the finned barrel and Lyman adjustable sight which mine has.

I think it has the later type 4^th Cutts compensator ref the description in Franks book.

The butt and the horizontal foregrip have had some work/repairs done on them moving the sling hooks around from their original positions and then the butt sling hook moved back to its original position.

I can’t see any mention of ‘Lend Lease’ on the gun.

If any of the above information is incorrect please tell me as I'm still very much in the learning process.

[Rekraps]

Very nice! Hard to believe so much of this stuff is still around after 80+ years!

[Dazza]

32 minutes ago, Rekraps said:

Very nice! Hard to believe so much of this stuff is still around after 80+ years!

Long may it continue.

[Countryboy77]

The roll mark under the stock is the roll mark Frank is talking about. That is the frame the Receiver is the top part the bolt moves in though the frame or trigger group lower receiver whatever people want to call it .Congratulations on the 1928a1.AO started putting together 1928a1 after Savage had produced several hundred thousand and they did their own thing with serial numbers all over again so it's sorta an early AO gun but not an early 1928.However there are fewer AO 1928 produced than Savages production

Edited January 23 by Countryboy77

[rpbcps]

Dazza,

Excellent addition to your collection.

A few answers to your questions:

U.S. before Model 1928 and A1 after it , indicates lend lease, (U.S. Model of 1928A1 on Savage made Thompsons). The British 'Cash and carry' , (pre lend lease),  guns were marked Model of 1928, and all of those were manufactured by Savage.

As countryboy says above, the trigger frame serial number IS the one under the stock, if it has been removed, the seller has misrepresented what he was selling, if he said it was matching. 

WB is the initials Colonel Waldemar Broberg who served as AIO of the Springfield District from 1 July 1941 until 30 June 1942. 

From my Notes, so not my work, probaly info from Franks book:

"The AOC Bridgeport Plant only manufactured this model from August 1941 until October 1942, with their last Model 1928A1 being completed on 15th October that year. Government documents show that the Bridgeport Plant manufactured a total of 323,900 Model of 1928A1’s during this period, on average 5784 left the assembly line per week.
Throughout the war, the Thompson underwent design changes that would make it faster and cheaper to produce. The first change eliminated the finely machined Lyman rear sight. This modification was the result of an Ordnance Committee meeting held in December of 1941. At this meeting, it was suggested that a much simpler ‘L’ type battle sight replace the complicated Lyman adjustable rear sight. It was agreed the new sight was better suited for a military application and it helped expedite production. 
So, from early 1942, 1928A1s’ were produced with the Lyman fixed aperture rear ‘L’ sight".

You can do the calculations from that, to give an idea when yours left the assembly lines.

Great piece, congratualtions.

Edited January 23 by rpbcps
Typo

[rpbcps]

Dazza, see above topic for information on inspection markings.

See below some 'Lend lease notes',  I made for a 1928A1 in my collection, S- 162650:

"President Roosevelt eventually came up with the idea of "lend lease", which despite some opposition from isolationist Republicans in Congress, was passed in both the congress and senate, and President Roosevelt signed the Lend Lease bill into law on March 11, 1941.

This permitted the U.S. to "sell, transfer title to, exchange, lease, lend, or otherwise dispose of, to any such government, (whose defence the President deems vital to the defence of the United States), any defence article." In April, this policy was extended to China, and in October to the Soviet Union. Roosevelt approved US$1 billion in Lend Lease aid to Britain at the end of October 1941.  This resulted in US Model of 1928 A1s’ being supplied to Britain, Canada Russia and China, amongst others, under the Lend Lease program. A provision of the Lend Lease program stated the US Government would take over all foreign contracts with US arms manufacturers. Both Savage and the AOC were keen to fulfil as many of the foreign contracts as possible, prior to the enactment of Lend Lease. They were both concerned that the US Government would question the high profit margin AOC was making on the Thompson.

Ironically enough, AOC could charge the US Government more than they had been charging the British, who had negotiated the price down to $130 per unit.  The price charged to the US Government was $225.00 minus 10%, which calculates to $202.50. Greasing and packing added an additional $2.50 to the cost, adding up to $205.00 per weapon.  The price was eventually reduced through negotiation and the lowering of manufacturing costs. 

During this period, the Model of 1928 Thompson underwent a few minor changes to the ejector and the compensator. It then had a major designation change in March of 1941, with the passage of the US Lend-Lease Act, which ended British ‘cash and carry’ orders for the Thompson.

‘Tommy gun’ 162650 was part of an order placed by Britain during the initial ‘cash and carry’ period of ‘MODEL OF 1928’ Thompsons. This order of 50,000 ‘MODEL OF 1928’ guns was placed just before the introduction of the U.S. Lend Lease Program in March 1941. 

Savage was still using an early roll stamp for the ‘MODEL OF 1928’ markings at the time.  However, under the Lend Lease Act, the US government assumed ownership of the guns that were supplied to foreign armed forces, and the Act stated that the guns had to be marked as U.S. Property.  

So, the "US" and "A1" were retrospectively added by hand stamping them to the 42,000 guns, (including 162659), from this order. 

[Dazza]

52 minutes ago, Countryboy77 said:

The roll mark under the stock is the roll mark Frank is talking about. That is the frame the Receiver is the top part the bolt moves in though the frame or trigger group lower receiver whatever people want to call it .Congratulations on the 1928a1.AO started putting together 1928a1 after Savage had produced several hundred thousand and they did their own thing with serial numbers all over again so it's sorta an early AO gun but not an early 1928.However there are fewer AO 1928 produced than Savages production

Thanks for the heads up on the roll mark, I suspected it might be the same thing, as I said still learning.

[Dazza]

33 minutes ago, rpbcps said:

U.S. before Model 1928 and A1 after it , indicates lend lease, (U.S. Model of 1928A1 on Savage made Thompsons). The British 'Cash and carry' , (pre lend lease),  guns were marked Model of 1928, and all of those were manufactured by Savage.

Well I learnt something new today. As always thanks Richard.

[Dazza]

20 minutes ago, rpbcps said:

Dazza, see above topic for information on inspection markings.

See below some 'Lend lease notes',  I made for a 1928A1 in my collection, S- 162650:

"President Roosevelt eventually came up with the idea of "lend lease", which despite some opposition from isolationist Republicans in Congress, was passed in both the congress and senate, and President Roosevelt signed the Lend Lease bill into law on March 11, 1941.

This permitted the U.S. to "sell, transfer title to, exchange, lease, lend, or otherwise dispose of, to any such government, (whose defence the President deems vital to the defence of the United States), any defence article." In April, this policy was extended to China, and in October to the Soviet Union. Roosevelt approved US$1 billion in Lend Lease aid to Britain at the end of October 1941.  This resulted in US Model of 1928 A1s’ being supplied to Britain, Canada Russia and China, amongst others, under the Lend Lease program. A provision of the Lend Lease program stated the US Government would take over all foreign contracts with US arms manufacturers. Both Savage and the AOC were keen to fulfil as many of the foreign contracts as possible, prior to the enactment of Lend Lease. They were both concerned that the US Government would question the high profit margin AOC was making on the Thompson.

Ironically enough, AOC could charge the US Government more than they had been charging the British, who had negotiated the price down to $130 per unit.  The price charged to the US Government was $225.00 minus 10%, which calculates to $202.50. Greasing and packing added an additional $2.50 to the cost, adding up to $205.00 per weapon.  The price was eventually reduced through negotiation and the lowering of manufacturing costs. 

During this period, the Model of 1928 Thompson underwent a few minor changes to the ejector and the compensator. It then had a major designation change in March of 1941, with the passage of the US Lend-Lease Act, which ended British ‘cash and carry’ orders for the Thompson.

‘Tommy gun’ 162650 was part of an order placed by Britain during the initial ‘cash and carry’ period of ‘MODEL OF 1928’ Thompsons. This order of 50,000 ‘MODEL OF 1928’ guns was placed just before the introduction of the U.S. Lend Lease Program in March 1941. 

Savage was still using an early roll stamp for the ‘MODEL OF 1928’ markings at the time.  However, under the Lend Lease Act, the US government assumed ownership of the guns that were supplied to foreign armed forces, and the Act stated that the guns had to be marked as U.S. Property.  

So, the "US" and "A1" were retrospectively added by hand stamping them to the 42,000 guns, (including 162659), from this order. 

Thanks for the explanation.