Relative rarity of smooth barrel 1928a1 Savage?

[Lewisfan]

It would seem that fewer "late feature" Savage 1928a1 guns were made than any of the other 1928a1 variants? Or is this a misperception on my part?

If so, it currently does not seem to have the "desirability" of the finned, ladder sight types. I'm just mainly curious if the production numbers were lowest with the smooth, L-sight types (Savage)?

[rpbcps]

How many Thompson 1928A1 (and Model of 1928s, as the serial numbers ran consecutively), were manufactured by Savage?

I read, probably in Franks book, that the smooth barrels replaced their finned predecessors on Savage 1928A1’s from approximately serial number S-500,000; which was the same approximate serial number that the plain ‘L’ sight was introduced to Savage 1928A1 production.

[Got Uzi]

People want the finned barrel and Lyman ladder sights so it looks like a “gangster gun” and not a cheapened wartime production 1928. Let’s face it, most of the guns you just described, find their way to new finned barrels and rear sight swaps. The only time this isn’t done is if the person is a shooter and doesn’t care, or the gun came from somewhere with some historical significance. 

[Rekraps]

12 minutes ago, Got Uzi said:

People want the finned barrel and Lyman ladder sights so it looks like a “gangster gun” and not a cheapened wartime production 1928. Let’s face it, most of the guns you just described, find their way to new finned barrels and rear sight swaps. The only time this isn’t done is if the person is a shooter and doesn’t care, or the gun came from somewhere with some historical significance. 

Excellent point. Once again......

[Lewisfan]

As time passes folks change what is deemed "desirable".  I've seen this with RDIAS (duds to studs), beltfeds (now less popular), etc.

I'm in the camp of not changing an original gun just so it can look like something else. Given the change to "late" features around 480,000+ serial, and seeing the highest Savage SN around 525,000 (?). It just seems that this variant would be among the rare types for the Thompson series.  Maybe with time these will be deemed more desirable solely based on rarity(?).  Should be interesting to watch.

[rpbcps]

4 hours ago, Lewisfan said:

As time passes folks change what is deemed "desirable".  I've seen this with RDIAS (duds to studs), beltfeds (now less popular), etc.

I'm in the camp of not changing an original gun just so it can look like something else. Given the change to "late" features around 480,000+ serial, and seeing the highest Savage SN around 525,000 (?). It just seems that this variant would be among the rare types for the Thompson series.  Maybe with time these will be deemed more desirable solely based on rarity(?).  Should be interesting to watch.

Living on the wrong side of the Atlantic when it comes to being a Thompson Enthusiast, my Thompsons are all deactivated. 

However my goal many years ago in fact decades ago was to have examples of each Model and various modifications, but still not there.

I have my 3 digit serial number Model of 1921, and three Model of 1928's, each with differences in markings. Early serial number NY address with patent dates, NY address with Patent numbers, which I have just acquired. Finally an example with the  Bridgeport address.

Then I have three 1928A1's. First with Lyman adjustable sight, finned barrel and receiver marked 'Tommy Gun'. Next has finned barrel, but with battle sight. Final example has smooth barrel and battle sight.

[Countryboy77]

Untouched yes the Savage is certainly a variant more rare then the AO version but as GotUzi stated above a lot of people want it to look like the gangster guns in the movies and the Thompson smith's of years would agree as many sights barrels and forends been swapped,some may even think they were upping the value of their Thompson doing so and uninformed buyers that bought them as well.There has been a resurgence of people appreciating the WW2 styling but most of them go M1 for reenactments and such want a gun like grandpas. Are there smooth barrels without comps?I know I usually see comp and smooth barrel L battle sight on the later models.Were there any 1928s( not colt overstamp) that did Not have a compensator?

[68coupe]

I don't know about actual firearms, but I bought an original NOS replacement smooth barrel that is threaded for a comp approximately 30 years ago. It's both marked Savage, and has the alignment witness mark at the chamber end. 30 years ago price was about $100.

FWIW, Karl

[rpbcps]

On 1/30/2025 at 8:56 PM, Countryboy77 said:

Untouched yes the Savage is certainly a variant more rare then the AO version but as GotUzi stated above a lot of people want it to look like the gangster guns in the movies and the Thompson smith's of years would agree as many sights barrels and forends been swapped,some may even think they were upping the value of their Thompson doing so and uninformed buyers that bought them as well.There has been a resurgence of people appreciating the WW2 styling but most of them go M1 for reenactments and such want a gun like grandpas. Are there smooth barrels without comps?I know I usually see comp and smooth barrel L battle sight on the later models.Were there any 1928s( not colt overstamp) that did Not have a compensator?

Indeed there were..

You can find many photos of British soldiers and Home Guard with Savage Model of 1928s, with no compensators, Model of 1928A's. These were shipped to the UK in one of the early orders made by Britain in 1940 if I recall correctly. 

Full story can be found in Tom Davis's book 'Great Britain - The Tommy Gun Story', with more photos of them.

 

[Countryboy77]

Yes but I was told those were COLTS ,not Savage. And they had smooth barrels with comps why woukd they drop the comp and return the fins? See it dont make much sense

[john]

I've heard that most WWII guns if all types had undergone at least one rebuild or at least field repairs during the war or shortly after. As such, most any given Thompson might have a finned or solid barrel as both were used for replacements.

I understand the desires of some to make a 28 look more like a 21 Colt .....my first Thompsona finish was sanded off, polished and blued by the guy who sold it to me. I had it cleaned up a few years ago, bead blasted and refinished in black oxide so at least it looks good.

I also have a late Savage 28A1 that has a smooth comp'ed barrel and "L" rear sight.

Thus particular gun is pictured in more than one of Curtis Earls catalogs and the serial can be read. It's got a non-finned barrel and an L-drum sight and in spite of having several finned and solid USGI barrels on my parts shelf, it's my desire to keep it the  way I bought it and as it was catalogued.

 

[rpbcps]

7 hours ago, Countryboy77 said:

Yes but I was told those were COLTS ,not Savage. And they had smooth barrels with comps why woukd they drop the comp and return the fins? See it dont make much sense

What you were told is incorrect, well partly, no doubt a very small number of Colts were already in the UK, or were in the early orders.

However, AOC remaining stock of the original Colt manufactured guns had already been purchased by France &  Sweden. 

The British were busy haggling on price. The story was the British noticed that the compensators were listed as an extra, if my memory serves me correctly for $25 each. So the British placed an order for Model of 1928's without compensators to keep costs down.

I don't have time to type out the full story. But, there is definitive evidence that some Savage 1928A's were purchased and delivered to Britain, (and used by British forces) in Tom's book.

Edited February 1 by rpbcps
Typo

[Countryboy77]

That would mean some early savages didn't have a compensator,but still a finned barrel ,right? I'm going to guess one in original condition would be the rarest Thompson Model next to Colt 1927.I don't think I ever seen one( unless I thought it was a Colt 1921).I woukd imagine they had flip up Lyman sights

[Got Uzi]

The rarest would most likely be an AOC M1 variant Thompson as most were reworked into M1A1’s 

[rpbcps]

7 hours ago, Countryboy77 said:

That would mean some early savages didn't have a compensator,but still a finned barrel ,right? I'm going to guess one in original condition would be the rarest Thompson Model next to Colt 1927.I don't think I ever seen one( unless I thought it was a Colt 1921).I woukd imagine they had flip up Lyman sights

Yep, finned barrels, Lyman adjustable sights with New York address on receiver. Identical to early Savage Model of 1928's, except they had no compensators.

If I recall correctly, I'm away from home at the moment so unable to refer to relevent text in Tom's book, AOC agreed to include compensator at a much reduced price to the British with their Model of 1928's, after that order was fulfilled.

[TSMGguy]

There was no US Army Ordnance Department depot maintenance rebuild program for US M1928 variants like there was for the M1s and M1A1s. That's why we don't see '28 WWII issued variants with depot rebuild stamps and parked finishes.   

[jpw43]

On 1/29/2025 at 6:42 AM, Got Uzi said:

People want the finned barrel and Lyman ladder sights so it looks like a “gangster gun” and not a cheapened wartime production 1928. Let’s face it, most of the guns you just described, find their way to new finned barrels and rear sight swaps. The only time this isn’t done is if the person is a shooter and doesn’t care, or the gun came from somewhere with some historical significance. 

I wanted one that looks like the SGT Saunders Thompson!

[rpbcps]

On 2/1/2025 at 7:56 AM, rpbcps said:

What you were told is incorrect, well partly, no doubt a very small number of Colts were already in the UK, or were in the early orders.

However, AOC remaining stock of the original Colt manufactured guns had already been purchased by France &  Sweden. 

The British were busy haggling on price. The story was the British noticed that the compensators were listed as an extra, if my memory serves me correctly for $25 each. So the British placed an order for Model of 1928's without compensators to keep costs down.

I don't have time to type out the full story. But, there is definitive evidence that some Savage 1928A's were purchased and delivered to Britain, (and used by British forces) in Tom's book.

"The final sales of the Colt manufactured Thompsons occurred in 1939 and 1940, 3,000 shipped to France, 951 sold to the US government, and 500 sold to Sweden; these three sales accounted for 4,451 weapons, almost 1/3 of the Thompsons manufactured by Colt. 
These orders resulted in AOC, almost clearing their remaining inventory of the 15000 Thompsons manufactured in 1921 and 1922 by Colt. The Swedish order left AOC with only 100 of the Colt manufactured Thompsons."

And

"In April 1940, the first Savage manufactured Thompsons were rolling off the assembly line. 
The first 3,000 Savage Model of 1928s were to meet the second French order for 
Thompsons placed in March 1940, which was never delivered due to the Armistice of 22 June 1940. The British took over all of the French military contracts in America, following the 22nd June, to avoid ‘war material’ continuing to be delivered to France and falling into German hands. It is recorded that 1,150 of the French Contract Savage Model of 1928s were amongst the ‘war materials’ delivered to Britain. 

The remainder of the contract, 1,850 Model of 1928s, was cancelled, once the British had negotiated a penalty from AOC for not meeting the schedule for the delivery of the French contract. As a penalty, AOC provided, free of charge, 149 new Savage Model 1928’s and 40 refurbished Colt Thompsons. 

Despite the British urgent requirement for weapons, they were still very conscious of costs, which was the reason for the British cancellation of the outstanding French Thompson contract. 
The French contract was for $175.00 per gun, whereas the British Purchasing Committee, purchased the early 1928 Thompsons for $168.75 each, which was further reduced to $130.00 per gun, by the end of the British contracts. 

The first British order with AOC, was for 750 Thompson Submachine guns, which was rapidly followed by several more orders. Prior to the enactment of the U.S. Lend-Lease program, (March 1941), the British had purchased 108,000 Savage Model of 1928s."

 

[Countryboy77]

Rpbcps Any idea where the serial numbers for savage 'cash and carry' end and 'lend an lease' begin?How to tell difference between the 2?

[rpbcps]

How you tell the difference and where the serial numbers for Savage 'cash & carry end?

From memory, in my collection I have a ‘Tommy gun’ stamped Savage Thompson, serial number S-162650. This was part of an order placed by Britain during the initial ‘cash and carry’ period of ‘MODEL OF 1928’ Thompsons.

This order of 50,000 ‘MODEL OF 1928’ guns was placed just before the introduction of the U.S. Lend Lease Program in March 1941.

Savage was still using an early roll stamp for the ‘MODEL OF 1928’ markings at the time.

However, under the Lend Lease Act, the US government assumed ownership of the guns that were supplied to foreign armed forces, and the Act stated that the guns had to be marked as U.S. Property. 

So, the "US" and "A1" were retrospectively added by hand stamping them to the 42,000 guns, (including S-162659), from this order. As they were hand stamped the "."s after the "U" and the "S", were not added. 

I read somewhere around the 200,000-serial number range, Savage began using a new roll stamp marked ‘U.S. MODEL OF 1928 A1’, so everything looked tidier, and the font was changed.

[rpbcps]

23 hours ago, Countryboy77 said:

Rpbcps Any idea where the serial numbers for savage 'cash and carry' end and 'lend an lease' begin?How to tell difference between the 2?

When I got home this evening, I dug out a few books to find out if I could find out more definitive information on S/N details for Savage 'cash & carry' end and Lend Lease' take over, with little joy.

Franks book, 'American Thunder 3', states that "The 1928 and the U.S. 1928A1 marked models were both being produced by Savage at the same time".

Maybe due to the fact the US Govt. orders for the US Army were being placed at the same time, as the orders for the British. So, I presume the US army orders were being stamped 'U.S. Model of 1928A1', prior to Lend Lease? The US Army, in Sept. 1938 designated the Thompson as "Submachine Gun, Caliber .45, Model of 1928A1.” 

Going back to Franks book he states that there exist U.S 1928A1's with S/Ns in the low 17000 range, (US Army guns?); and other S/Ns in the 185000 range that were NOT U.S. 1928A1 marked.

Perhaps I need to purchase volume 3 of The Thompson Encyclopaedia, to see what information that book provides on the subject.

[TSMGguy]

My own M1928A1, S-3329xxNAC, is interesting in that the records obtained under FOIA show only that it was imported by Numrich, but not from where. I've always assumed that it came from UK unissued Lend-Lease stocks. It is matching and fully US martially marked with US, GEG, RLB, and flaming bomb stamps, but has no UK marks or proofs. The NAC was obviously added.

  

Edited February 15 by TSMGguy

[rpbcps]

2 hours ago, TSMGguy said:

My own M1928A1, S-3329xxNAC, is interesting in that the records obtained under FOIA show only that it was imported by Numrich, but not from where. I've always assumed that it came from UK unissued Lend-Lease stocks. It is matching and fully US martially marked with US, GEG, RLB, and flaming bomb stamps, but has no UK marks or proofs. The NAC was obviously added.

  

I read somewhere that only the Model of 1928's were marked by the relevant UK authorities. 

The Lend Lease 1928A1s were not stamped with proofs etc. as officially they were US Govt. Property on loan.

It was only when the lend lease guns were repaired that they received relevent stamps to indicate were they had been repaired and by whom.

If your 1928A1 was unissued, then obviously not had any repairs, it would not have been marked.

 

[Bridgeport28A1]

On 2/4/2025 at 9:36 AM, TSMGguy said:

There was no US Army Ordnance Department depot maintenance rebuild program for US M1928 variants like there was for the M1s and M1A1s. That's why we don't see '28 WWII issued variants with depot rebuild stamps and parked finishes.   

While not a US Army Ordnance Department Depot, I have an article on Rock Island Arsenal in Man at Arms magazine number 3 1997.  There are multiple pages of Rock Island Arsenal Small Arms Overhauled and Modified at Rock Island Arsenal. I am only going to list activity starting at the end of WW2 for M1928A1.

15 August - December 1945 Overhauled and Modified       427 Gun, Submachine, Caliber .45 M1928A1  

1 January 1945 - June 1946 Overhauled and Modified      2,210 Gun, Submachine, Caliber .45 M1928A1

1 July 1946 - 30 June 1947  No M1928A1 activity listed

1 July 1947 - June 1948 Overhauled Modified or Prepared for Storage   4,051 Guns, Thompson Submachine, cal.45 M1928A1

1 July 1951 - 30 June 1952  2  Guns, Thompson, Cal. 45 M1928A1

I do own a M1928A1 Thompson that's first National Firearms Registration and Transfer Record (NFRTR) is from Pueblo Ordnance Depot to a Massachusetts Police Department as part of a three gun transfer. Author Tom Davis told me it was the first documented FOIA transfer record showing a transfer from the US Army to a police department he had seen. 

While I have not observed a Savage or Auto Ordnance (Bridgeport) RIA marked 1928A1. I have seen RIA marked examples of Colt US 19298 A1 guns.