Early Savage Thompson model 1928

[Patrick Vdv]

I want to share my Thompson model 1928 Savage her in this forum.

As I am in Belgium and have a legal gun license for the gun, it has professionely made only to be used as 'SINGLE' without damaging the mechanics. (photo 3).

It is 'MODEL OF 1928 NO. S-30578'. That makes it an early Savage, as I researched it. 

In the forgrip and buttstock, there are 2 holes drilled. I can't find any explenation for these holes. (photo 1) Any suggestions?? 

The only stamps are on the left side: GEG, George E. Goll (photo 4) , on the right side: English gunmark (crown, F 7, E) , and a umbrella shaped mark. What does that umbrella mark stands for?? (photo 5)

Note the round S on the barrel and de square S on the front gripmount. (Photo 6) That's from the two Savage factories. 

 

Please feel free to comment or share hints According this gun. I have more detail pictures of the gun, compensator and magazines I can share if asked for. 

 

Edited April 23 by Patrick Vdv

[JJX]

Hello Patrick,

Great looking early 1928. The two holes in the foregrip were for a sling swivel, a common British modification. The two holes in the buttstock are reinforcing screws, another common modification. 
The ‘umbrella’, I believe, is a British broad arrow mark.

[rpbcps]

14 hours ago, JJX said:

Hello Patrick,

Great looking early 1928. The two holes in the foregrip were for a sling swivel, a common British modification. The two holes in the buttstock are reinforcing screws, another common modification. 
The ‘umbrella’, I believe, is a British broad arrow mark.

Welcome to the forum Patrick,

Yep, the buttstock reinforcing screws were a common British modification on their Thompsons and I also agree with JJX, on the British broad arrow mark. The buttstock screws were a British 'Royal Electrical and Mechanical Engineer' (REME)’ workshop modification adopted for reinforcement to prevent the buttstocks cracking. 

This is an example of the 2nd version of a ‘Cash & Carry’  AOC New York address Thompson ‘MODEL of 1928’. This version replaced the first Savage Thompson Model of 1928's produced with the 12 patent dates marking stamps, with the 13 patent numbers. The Model of 1928’s which had the 13 patent numbers began from approx. S/N 26732 I read, maybe in the definitive book wrote by Tom Davis Jr. on the British Thompsons, 'Great Britain – The Tommy Gun Story'‘, which I would recommend. If not, maybe the information was in the book written by Frank Iannamico, 'Amercan Thunder 3', which is another good reference book on my bookshelf.
To note, Savage placed an incorrect patent number on their Model of 1928’s,  (and later US 1928A1) receivers. Patent # 1,403,492 was omitted and in its place patent # 1,403,623 is stamped. This patent describes the use of belt fed cartridges fitted into a magazine designed to hold the belt. This was a development in the Model of 1919 guns, as they evolved from the belt fed ‘Persuader’ to the magazine fed ‘Annihilator’.  Both patents were issued on the 17th of Jan 1922, despite 1,403,623 being applied for on the 19th of Dec. 1919, hence the origin of the Savage mistake.

The block style ‘S’ (square), is that of the J. Stevens Plant that provided parts for Savage.

Does the serial number on the trigger frame, found under the butt stock, match the one on the receiver?  The early New York address Model of 1928s usually did not have magazine catches with tooling holes in the knurled area. Savage continued to use the ‘no hole’ model up until the 70,000 serial number Model of 1928’s, when they were modified and produced with the tooling hole in them. Also the safety and selector levers were knurled on the early Model of 1928's, not smooth as the ones found on your Model of 1928.  These modifications were introduced on guns produced later in the war, as cost cutting measures.  Field armourer repairs and depot level refurbishments often resulted in receivers and trigger frames being mixed up, so it is not unusual, a few examples in my collection have mismatched receivers and trigger frames. The armourers priority during the war, was to keep the weapons in working order and therefore matching serial numbers were not important to them.

You have a really nice example, is this Model of 1928 deactivated to the EU standards?
 

Edited April 24 by rpbcps
typo

[68coupe]

Man, i am continuously amazed at the collective brilliance of this group. Y'all amaze me with the things you remember, or have references for. I can't even remember what I had for lunch.

Karl, 68coupe

[Patrick Vdv]

11 hours ago, rpbcps said:

Welcome to the forum Patrick,

Yep, the buttstock reinforcing screws were a common British modification on their Thompsons and I also agree with JJX, on the British broad arrow mark. The buttstock screws were a British 'Royal Electrical and Mechanical Engineer' (REME)’ workshop modification adopopted for reinforcement to prevent the buttstocks cracking. 

This is an example of the 2nd version of a ‘Cash & Carry’  AOC New York address Thompson ‘MODEL of 1928’. This version replaced the first Savage Thompson Model of 1928's produced with the 12 patent dates marking stamps, with the 13 patent numbers. The Model of 1928’s which had the 13 patent numbers began from approx. S/N 26732 I read, maybe in the definitive book wrote by Tom Davis Jr. on the British Thompsons, 'Great Britain – The Tommy Gun Story'‘, which I would recommend. If not, maybe the information was in the book written by Frank Iannamico, 'Amercan Thunder 3', which is another good reference book on my bookshelf.
To note, Savage placed an incorrect patent number on their Model of 1928’s,  (and later US 1928A1) receivers. Patent # 1,403,492 was omitted and in its place patent # 1,403,623 is stamped. This patent describes the use of belt fed cartridges fitted into a magazine designed to hold the belt. This was a development in the Model of 1919 guns, as they evolved from the belt fed ‘Persuader’ to the magazine fed ‘Annihilator’.  Both patents were issued on the 17th of Jan 1922, despite 1,403,623 being applied for on the 19th of Dec. 1919, hence the origin of the Savage mistake.

The block style ‘S’ (square), is that of the J. Stevens Plant that provided parts for Savage.

Does the serial number on the trigger frame, found under the butt stock, match the one on the receiver?  The early New York address Model of 1928s usually did not have magazine catches with tooling holes in the knurled area, Savage continued to use the ‘no hole’ model up until the 70,000 serial number Model of 1928’s, when they were modified and produced with the tooling hole in them. Also the safety and selector levers were knurled on the early Model of 1928's, not smooth as the ones found on your Model of 1928.  These modifications were introduced on guns produced later in the war, as cost cutting measures.  Field armourer repairs and depot level refurbishments often resulted in receivers and trigger frames being mixed up, so it is not unusual, a few examples in my collection have mismatched receivers and trigger frames. The armourers priority during the war, was to keep the weapons in working order and therefore matching serial numbers were not important to them.

You have a really nice example, is this Model of 1928 deactivated to the EU standards?
 

Thank you rpbcps for all that information.

The holes in the buttstock are drilled but never been used (no screw marks inside the holes), the same for the front grip. (photo 1)

There are 13 patent numbers  with patent # 1,403,623 (photo 2)

The serial numbers on the resever and trigger frame (photo 3) are the same.

How is that the serial numbers are the same but has the magazine catch with tooling hole in the knurled area and has the smooth safety and selector levers, if they changed these things until 70.000 serial number Model 1928's??

Yes it's made legal 'half automatic' so the select lever can't be turned from 'SINGLE' to 'FULL AUTO' (photo 4) and I have a Belgian gun license for the Thommy gun. It's registered in the Belgian gunregister so I presume it's up to EU standards.

The broad arrow is a mark for British government property (now I know). Like the other British 'crown' mark, wat does 'F' '7' 'E' means?? (photo 5)

On the left side is a mark (stamp) of 'J' , what does that stands for? (photo 6)

 

 

I'm curious about the originality of the gun and if it's correct to date (not fake or tampered with). 

I don't know if I can ask on this platform what the approximate value is of this gun? When I bought the gun in 2012, someone checked it and told me it is remarkable in good mechanic condition, not much used.

[Patrick Vdv]

14 hours ago, JJX said:

Hello Patrick,

Great looking early 1928. The two holes in the foregrip were for a sling swivel, a common British modification. The two holes in the buttstock are reinforcing screws, another common modification. 
The ‘umbrella’, I believe, is a British broad arrow mark.

Thank you JJX.

The holes are drilled but never used. In the buttstock there are no screw marks in the holes. (photo)

[Rekraps]

14 hours ago, rpbcps said:

Welcome to the forum Patrick,

Yep, the buttstock reinforcing screws were a common British modification on their Thompsons and I also agree with JJX, on the British broad arrow mark. The buttstock screws were a British 'Royal Electrical and Mechanical Engineer' (REME)’ workshop modification adopted for reinforcement to prevent the buttstocks cracking. 

This is an example of the 2nd version of a ‘Cash & Carry’  AOC New York address Thompson ‘MODEL of 1928’. This version replaced the first Savage Thompson Model of 1928's produced with the 12 patent dates marking stamps, with the 13 patent numbers. The Model of 1928’s which had the 13 patent numbers began from approx. S/N 26732 I read, maybe in the definitive book wrote by Tom Davis Jr. on the British Thompsons, 'Great Britain – The Tommy Gun Story'‘, which I would recommend. If not, maybe the information was in the book written by Frank Iannamico, 'Amercan Thunder 3', which is another good reference book on my bookshelf.
To note, Savage placed an incorrect patent number on their Model of 1928’s,  (and later US 1928A1) receivers. Patent # 1,403,492 was omitted and in its place patent # 1,403,623 is stamped. This patent describes the use of belt fed cartridges fitted into a magazine designed to hold the belt. This was a development in the Model of 1919 guns, as they evolved from the belt fed ‘Persuader’ to the magazine fed ‘Annihilator’.  Both patents were issued on the 17th of Jan 1922, despite 1,403,623 being applied for on the 19th of Dec. 1919, hence the origin of the Savage mistake.

The block style ‘S’ (square), is that of the J. Stevens Plant that provided parts for Savage.

Does the serial number on the trigger frame, found under the butt stock, match the one on the receiver?  The early New York address Model of 1928s usually did not have magazine catches with tooling holes in the knurled area. Savage continued to use the ‘no hole’ model up until the 70,000 serial number Model of 1928’s, when they were modified and produced with the tooling hole in them. Also the safety and selector levers were knurled on the early Model of 1928's, not smooth as the ones found on your Model of 1928.  These modifications were introduced on guns produced later in the war, as cost cutting measures.  Field armourer repairs and depot level refurbishments often resulted in receivers and trigger frames being mixed up, so it is not unusual, a few examples in my collection have mismatched receivers and trigger frames. The armourers priority during the war, was to keep the weapons in working order and therefore matching serial numbers were not important to them.

You have a really nice example, is this Model of 1928 deactivated to the EU standards?
 

Great summary! 

[rpbcps]

Patrick,

I have an even earlier NY address Model of 1928 in my collection, and that was once a semi auto, (coup par coup). So it has the the selector lever fixed in the semi auto (half automatic) position. Although with changes in UK law in 1988, it had to be deactivated (neutralisée).

Matching serial numbers, a bonus , so the only explanation I can think of for the magazine catch having the tooling hole in the knurled area and smooth safety and selector levers, is they have been changed in service by an armourer for some reason , or even later during the semi auto conversion process in Belgium. 

In the 85 years since these guns  were manufactured, shipped to Europe and used initially by the British forces then by whoever after, a lot of things can happen to then. So again it is not unusual to find these kind of modifications. Some times they are even made by collectors.

Recently there was a Bridgeport address Model of 1928 for sale in the UK, which had the later M1/M1A1 safety and selector levers fitted.

The 'F7' , below Royal Crown, is an inspector code and the 'E' is the location of inspection E = Enfield.

'J' I am afraid I do not have an answer to that one. 🫣

'Holes drilled but no screws added', again I have no answer why that would have been done.

Two of my Thompsons also have the holes drilled in same locations but reinforcing screws have been added to the buttstock, and a sling swives added to the foregrip.

The actual Model of 1928 is original, manufactured in 1940.  Like most of these old guns, as mentioned above, due to necessity in wartime or choice of subsequent collectors and owners modifications have been done.

Price depends where you,  or rather the gun is, and laws concerning the transfer of the gun which have introduced in firearms regulations over the years. 

Hope this helps

Richard

Edited April 24 by rpbcps
Typo, again...

[Patrick Vdv]

14 minutes ago, rpbcps said:

Patrick,

I have an even earlier NY address Model of 1928 in my collection, and that was once a semi auto, (coup par coup). So it has the the selector lever fixed in the semi auto (half automatic) position. Although with changes in UK law in 1988, it had to be deactivated (neutralisée).

Matching serial numbers, a bonus , so the only explanation I can think of for the magazine catch having the tooling hole in the knurled area and smooth safety and selector levers, is they have been changed in service by an armourer for some reason , or even later during the semi auto conversion process in Belgium. 

In the 85 years since these guns  were manufactured, shipped to Europe and used initially by the British forces then by whoever after, a lot of things can happen to then. So again it is not unusual to find these kind of modifications. Some times they are even made by collectors.

Recently there was a Bridgeport address Model of 1928 for sale in the UK, which had the later M1/M1A1 safety and selector levers fitted.

The 'F7' , below Royal Crown, is an inspector code and the 'E' is the location of inspection E = Enfield.

'J' I am afraid I do not have an answer to that one. 🫣

'Holes drilled but no screws added', again I have no answer why that would have been done.

Two of my Thompsons also have the holes drilled in same locations but reinforcing screws have been added to the buttstock, and a sling swives added to the foregrip.

The actual Model of 1928 is original, manufactured in 1940.  Like most of these old guns, as mentioned above, due to necessity in wartime or choice of subsequent collectors and owners modifications have been done.

Price depends where you,  or rather the gun is, and laws concerning the transfer of the gun which have introduced in firearms regulations over the years. 

Hope this helps

Richard

Thank you Richard for sharing your knowledge. 

Like you say, in the past the militairy or previous owners change things to so call 'upgrade' the gun. But later on it damage the value of the gun, does it?

'E' for Enfield is  Royal Small Arms Factory at Enfield, Middlesex. That's where the crown comes from on the mark.

You can't find any public sites where these things are sold, to find out the different values according the condition it is in.

 

Patrick

[Canuck]

Patrick,

If the foregrip is original to the gun it will likely be marked with a "S" in the channel just behind the hole for the attachment bolt. There may be a lot of aging there but the "S" should show through. If there is no "S" it would tell me that the foregrip is likely a replacement. 

Regarding your magazines, the drum is not WWII vintage. You will notice the center shaft is solid and the originals had a hollow shaft that allows greasing. When you open it up does it hold 50 rounds? It is likely a later (1970's) West Hurley drum. Are there any maker markings on the box magazine? There are several manufacturers of the magazines.

I stand to be corrected but I think there was an Enfield inspector at the factory when these guns were made and they were proof marked before they even left America. Maybe Tom can pipe up on that.

Do you have any history of the gun other than where you obtained it?

 

[rpbcps]

1 hour ago, Patrick Vdv said:

Thank you Richard for sharing your knowledge. 

Like you say, in the past the militairy or previous owners change things to so call 'upgrade' the gun. But later on it damage the value of the gun, does it?

'E' for Enfield is  Royal Small Arms Factory at Enfield, Middlesex. That's where the crown comes from on the mark.

You can't find any public sites where these things are sold, to find out the different values according the condition it is in.

 

Patrick

Value of an item is what the buyer will pay. Over the years I have paid over the top for some items I really wanted, fell foul of my addiction to the Thompson history 🤣😂

[rpbcps]

Talking of magazines, in this link there are some examples of magazines including many modified in service with the British forces.

 

[Patrick Vdv]

1 hour ago, Canuck said:

Patrick,

If the foregrip is original to the gun it will likely be marked with a "S" in the channel just behind the hole for the attachment bolt. There may be a lot of aging there but the "S" should show through. If there is no "S" it would tell me that the foregrip is likely a replacement. 

Regarding your magazines, the drum is not WWII vintage. You will notice the center shaft is solid and the originals had a hollow shaft that allows greasing. When you open it up does it hold 50 rounds? It is likely a later (1970's) West Hurley drum. Are there any maker markings on the box magazine? There are several manufacturers of the magazines.

I stand to be corrected but I think there was an Enfield inspector at the factory when these guns were made and they were proof marked before they even left America. Maybe Tom can pipe up on that.

Do you have any history of the gun other than where you obtained it?

 

Canuck, thank you for the information.

There is no 'S' on the inside of foregrip.😪

It is a 50 rounds drum with a solid centre shaft. There are no hidden maker markers on the drum or the ones you can see (photos). I bought that drum on a militaria swapmeet about 10 years ago. I was happy to find a 'original' Thompson drum. 😊

I bought the gun 12 years ago at a gunstore in Bruges, Belgium. There was no history about it, an anonymous seller.

Patrick

 

[Patrick Vdv]

12 minutes ago, rpbcps said:

Talking of magazines, in this link there are some examples of magazines including many modified in service with the British forces.

 

Nice collection, wow.

[TD.]

Patrick Vdv,

Thank you for sharing pictures of S-30578. Many of the above knowledgeable forum members have provided you a lot of valuable information. These are my thoughts:

1. I really like this Thompson, especially the semi-automatic conversion with the rod or steel peg installed in the frame to prevent turning the rocker pivot to fully automatic fire. I have never seen a Thompson submachine gun modified like this before. 

2. S-30578 is a very early Savage Thompson with the second variation receiver. Note the New York address and patent numbers on the right-side receiver. The first Savage variation had patent DATES instead of patent numbers. The end of the Patent Dates and beginning of the Patent Numbers occurred somewhere between the 25,000 and 26,000 serial number range. No one knows exactly were Savage Arms started numbering the Savage guns when production began, but it is believed to be in the early 15,000 serial number range. S-15259 is the earliest Savage production gun known to exist. Based on Savage Arms production numbers, I would guess S-30578 was manufactured in September 1940. It is certainly one of the early Cash & Carry guns shipped to Great Britain. 

3. A review of the pictures leads me to believe S-3578 has been refinished. The matching color all over is just too uniform. 

4. I suspect the vertical fore grip is a modern-day reproduction. Let us know if you find an "S" letter mark inside the grip channel. The (pistol) grip has been heavily sanded. Note how it fits with the frame. If mine, I would replace this grip.  Brass re-enforcement screws in the butt stock are common with British guns. So is a top mounted sling swivel. I cannot tell from your pictures if British Armorers filled the original sling swivel slot at the bottom of the butt stock. Again, very common.

5. Unfortunately, sometime in the past the no-hole magazine catch and knurled fire control levers have been changed out with later variations. However, the milled ejector and knurled actuator are present. Perhaps Canuck will post a picture of his 33,000 Savage (a beautiful gun) that has the proper magazine catch and levers. 

6. The barrel is probably original and has the proper "S" mark for Savage Arms on the barrel collar. I count 29 fins and grip mount resting under the 21st fin. Perfect. The grip mount is marked with the square S for Stevens Arms, a brother company to Savage Arms and subcontractor for Thompson submachine gun parts. Note blue color inside the pitting on the grip mount, a sure sign of re-bluing. 

7. I believe it has the correct a Type 2 compensator but really need more pictures. I would be interest in seeing if the ends of the compensator pin are flattened. 

8. The frame serial number is matched to the receiver serial number. This is a big plus. We see a lot of mis-matched guns and forced numbered matched frames to receivers. 

9. The British Broad Arrow mark, Crown and "E" or Enfield markings indicate a definite British Cash & Carry Thompson gun. These are common markings. I have no idea what the "J" mark is all about but unknown letter markings on these old guns are somewhat common. 

10. The L drum you pictured is not original to S-30578. It is a modern-day L drum manufactured and sold in the 70s and 80s. 

11. I doubt British Inspectors were at the Savage factory when S-30578 was manufactured. I believe these marks were applied at the Enfield Small Arms Factory. Great Britain did hire Inspectors but from what I can tell, it was not a quick process. When the Lend-Lease Act was passed in March 1941 and the US government eventually took control of small arms manufacturing, everything changed regarding inspectors. More research needs to be done in this area. The round GEG stamp on the left side receiver is George E. Goll, the Chief Engineer and Inspector for Auto-Ordnance Corporation. Savage Arms was a subcontractor to Auto-Ordnance. It was Auto-Ordnance Corporation, not Savage Arms, that was selling all these Thompson guns to the British Ministry of Supply (MoS). 

What did I miss? Please ask questions.

Again, I really like S-30578. How common are the semi-automatic converted Thompson guns in Belgium? If S-30578 was properly registered in the USA, I would guess it would be worth somewhere between $25,000 and $30,000. 

An excellent book for you would be Frank Iannamico's, American Thunder, Third Edition. It will answer a lot of questions. You could also consider, Great Britain-The Tommy Gun Story. Both are available on Amazon.com. 

[Patrick Vdv]

17 minutes ago, TD. said:

Patrick Vdv,

Thank you for sharing pictures of S-30578. Many of the above knowledgeable forum members have provided you a lot of valuable information. These are my thoughts:

1. I really like this Thompson, especially the semi-automatic conversion with the rod or steel peg installed in the frame to prevent turning the rocker pivot to fully automatic fire. I have never seen a Thompson submachine gun modified like this before. 

2. S-30578 is a very early Savage Thompson with the second variation receiver. Note the New York address and patent numbers on the right-side receiver. The first Savage variation had patent DATES instead of patent numbers. The end of the Patent Dates and beginning of the Patent Numbers occurred somewhere between the 25,000 and 26,000 serial number range. No one knows exactly were Savage Arms started numbering the Savage guns when production began, but it is believed to be in the early 15,000 serial number range. S-15259 is the earliest Savage production gun known to exist. Based on Savage Arms production numbers, I would guess S-30578 was manufactured in September 1940. It is certainly one of the early Cash & Carry guns shipped to Great Britain. 

3. A review of the pictures leads me to believe S-3578 has been refinished. The matching color all over is just too uniform. 

4. I suspect the vertical fore grip is a modern-day reproduction. Let us know if you find an "S" letter mark inside the grip channel. The (pistol) grip has been heavily sanded. Note how it fits with the frame. If mine, I would replace this grip.  Brass re-enforcement screws in the butt stock are common with British guns. So is a top mounted sling swivel. I cannot tell from your pictures if British Armorers filled the original sling swivel slot at the bottom of the butt stock. Again, very common.

5. Unfortunately, sometime in the past the no-hole magazine catch and knurled fire control levers have been changed out with later variations. However, the milled ejector and knurled actuator are present. Perhaps Canuck will post a picture of his 33,000 Savage (a beautiful gun) that has the proper magazine catch and levers. 

6. The barrel is probably original and has the proper "S" mark for Savage Arms on the barrel collar. I count 29 fins and grip mount resting under the 21st fin. Perfect. The grip mount is marked with the square S for Stevens Arms, a brother company to Savage Arms and subcontractor for Thompson submachine gun parts. Note blue color inside the pitting on the grip mount, a sure sign of re-bluing. 

7. I believe it has the correct a Type 2 compensator but really need more pictures. I would be interest in seeing if the ends of the compensator pin are flattened. 

8. The frame serial number is matched to the receiver serial number. This is a big plus. We see a lot of mis-matched guns and forced numbered matched frames to receivers. 

9. The British Broad Arrow mark, Crown and "E" or Enfield markings indicate a definite British Cash & Carry Thompson gun. These are common markings. I have no idea what the "J" mark is all about but unknown letter markings on these old guns are somewhat common. 

10. The L drum you pictured is not original to S-30578. It is a modern-day L drum manufactured and sold in the 70s and 80s. 

11. I doubt British Inspectors were at the Savage factory when S-30578 was manufactured. I believe these marks were applied at the Enfield Small Arms Factory. Great Britain did hire Inspectors but from what I can tell, it was not a quick process. When the Lend-Lease Act was passed in March 1941 and the US government eventually took control of small arms manufacturing, everything changed regarding inspectors. More research needs to be done in this area. The round GEG stamp on the left side receiver is George E. Goll, the Chief Engineer and Inspector for Auto-Ordnance Corporation. Savage Arms was a subcontractor to Auto-Ordnance. It was Auto-Ordnance Corporation, not Savage Arms, that was selling all these Thompson guns to the British Ministry of Supply (MoS). 

What did I miss? Please ask questions.

Again, I really like S-30578. How common are the semi-automatic converted Thompson guns in Belgium? If S-30578 was properly registered in the USA, I would guess it would be worth somewhere between $25,000 and $30,000. 

An excellent book for you would be Frank Iannamico's, American Thunder, Third Edition. It will answer a lot of questions. You could also consider, Great Britain-The Tommy Gun Story. Both are available on Amazon.com. 

Thank you TD. for sharing your knowledge.

1. For a handyman its more then a semi automatic. 🤐

2. Very interesting!

3. It had been reblued for the sale in Belgium. Sadly for the originality of the gun.

4. No 'S' in the forgrip to be found. The original sling swivel slot at the bottom of the buttstock has been filled. See the photos of the sling swivel on top and the bottom. (Photo 1-2)

5. Looking forward to see Canuck's pictures.

6. On top of the barrel is a 'P' stamped. (photo 3)

7. Compensator (photos 4-5-6)

8. Matching numbers... check.

9. 'J' good it be the enitial of the essembly person or manufacturer supervisor??

10. I bought the drum on a military swap meet in Belgium, the seller was from Netherland.

11. Most of the Savage guns have much more markings. I was thinking this gun never made to the war, is that possible??

How to find out if it's properly registered in the USA?

 

If you need more pictures or details, let me know.

Patrick

[rpbcps]

Quoting Tom

"If S-30578 was properly registered in the USA, I would guess it would be worth somewhere between $25,000 and $30,000."

In the UK it would have to be deactivated, and interest in Thompsons here is not big, so despite being and early NY address Thompson, it would be worth about £3000.

[Patrick Vdv]

1 minute ago, rpbcps said:

Quoting Tom

"If S-30578 was properly registered in the USA, I would guess it would be worth somewhere between $25,000 and $30,000."

In the UK it would have to be deactivated, and interest in Thompsons here is not big, so despite being and early NY address Thompson, it would be worth about £3000.

Deactivating is like castration of Tommy the gun. 😂 That's why the value drops.

[Lewisfan]

It cannot be registered in the US. It cannot be imported into the US. For a machinegun to be registered for civilian ownership in the US it had to be done prior to 1986.  Machineguns imported to the US (even US made guns, like this Thompson) had to be imported before 1968. 

The small number of registered machineguns in the US is the reason why US prices are so high. Each time a machinegun changes ownership in the US, the paperwork goes through a government agency to verify proper registration and to help them keep track of where each gun is located.

[rpbcps]

2 minutes ago, Patrick Vdv said:

Deactivating is like castration of Tommy the gun. 😂 That's why the value drops.

Agreed, but unfortunately due to the draconian firearms regulations in the UK, the only Thompsons we can legally own are deactivated.

These started in 1988, when my semi auto Thompson became illegal to own. The latest changes were made in 2016, due to the Bataclan attacks in France.

[Patrick Vdv]

5 minutes ago, Lewisfan said:

It cannot be registered in the US. It cannot be imported into the US. For a machinegun to be registered for civilian ownership in the US it had to be done prior to 1986.  Machineguns imported to the US (even US made guns, like this Thompson) had to be imported before 1968. 

The small number of registered machineguns in the US is the reason why US prices are so high. Each time a machinegun changes ownership in the US, the paperwork goes through a government agency to verify proper registration and to help them keep track of where each gun is located.

That's sad for a USA made iconic submachine gun. 

Her in Belgium/mainland Europe, 12 years ago there were lots for sale at gunstores. Now adays, It's very rare to see one. 

That's why I can't find a value for this one.

[Patrick Vdv]

3 minutes ago, rpbcps said:

Agreed, but unfortunately due to the draconian firearms regulations in the UK, the only Thompsons we can legally own are deactivated.

These started in 1988, when my semi auto Thompson became illegal to own. The latest changes were made in 2016, due to the Bataclan attacks in France.

Oh rpbcps, that was you in France? 😂🤣 No, joke. Crimes are commited with illegal weapons. And gun enthusiasts who have to pay for licenses are alway the black sheep. Beautiful historic fire arms are getting distroyed. 🤬

[rpbcps]

36 minutes ago, Patrick Vdv said:

Oh rpbcps, that was you in France? 😂🤣 No, joke. Crimes are commited with illegal weapons. And gun enthusiasts who have to pay for licenses are alway the black sheep. Beautiful historic fire arms are getting distroyed. 🤬

Patrick,

Agreed, in the UK only the criminals are armed, and some of the police, not all of them. 

I am in France quite regularly, having served 6 years in the 2e Regiment Etrangere de Parachutists in the 1980's, and in my capacity as the délégué régional of the 'Amicale des Anciens Légionnaires Parachutistes' for Britain and Ireland.

Over the last few years I visited Belgium on a regular basis teaching 'formation de sensibilisation aux environnements hostiles', at Lens.

 

[Patrick Vdv]

1 hour ago, rpbcps said:

Patrick,

Agreed, in the UK only the criminals are armed, and some of the police, not all of them. 

I am in France quite regularly, having served 6 years in the 2e Regiment Etrangere de Parachutists in the 1980's, and in my capacity as the délégué régional of the 'Amicale des Anciens Légionnaires Parachutistes' for Britain and Ireland.

Over the last few years I visited Belgium on a regular basis teaching 'formation de sensibilisation aux environnements hostiles', at Lens.

 

Respect Richard. 

[TSMG28]

Patrick,

As you have learned from the responses to your query, you came to the right place for information about your Thompson.  Welcome!

Your gun was most definitely purchased by the British early in WWII, marked as a military arm, and put into use.  How it eventually got to Belgium, was refinished and converted, will likely never be known unless your can track it back from whoever sold it to you.  As far as current value in Belgium, it is difficult to say, as most of us on this board are familiar with pricing in other countries.  Some dealers in Luxembourg might be able to assist you with current pricing.  I believe Luxembourg still allows full-auto Thompsons to be owned.

The swivel that is mounted on the top of your buttstock is also a replacement.  It is the stamped metal design used on Thompson later in the war, especially the M1A1 models.  The original buttstock for you gun would have come with a milled swivel, which the British armorers would have moved to the top and filled in the bottom recess, as was done on your stock.

Since the vertical foregrip is a replacement, it is hard to say when or why the holes were drilled on the left side for mounting a swivel.  When the British armorers made this modification in 1940+, they installed an offset Enfield swivel on the Savage vertical foregrips.  None of the original Savage vertical foregrips came with swivels mounted, as far as I know.  The swivel bases of the Enfield swivel are different from the Remington swivel installed on the buttstock, so the hole separation and overall length is different.  Enfield swivels have a holes separation of ~1 inch, and an overall length of ~1.5 inches.  The Remington swivels have a hole separation of ~1.125 inches, and an overall length of ~1.625 inches.  I suggest you measure the hole separation of your buttsock screws and compare it with the hole separation on the foregrip.  If the separation is the same, whoever did that was probably planning to install a standard milled swivel.  If the separation is different, an Enfield offset swivel would be required there if you ever decide to add one.

As has been noted by several other people, your L-drum magazine is modern reproduction sold by Numrich in West Hurley, New York, starting in 1988. Be aware that some of those drums had serious manufacturing defects, preventing them from working properly.  Many actually work quite well, at least in semi-auto guns.  A few had the faceplates installed incorrectly, preventing the drum from even being inserted into a gun.  Hopefully yours inserts properly and feeds your ammo reliably for semi-auto fire.

Your latest pics do show your compensator is a Type II, consistent with the period your gun was made.  As has been discussed, your magazine catch, selector and safety have all been replaced with later versions at some point.  Perhaps this was done during the semi-only conversion by people who did not know the difference.  Perhaps whoever did it actually did know the difference, and knew that those early parts are much more valuable, at least in the U.S. market.  Pilfering of higher value parts for resale has been common, especially with all of the surplus Thompson that were released from the salt mines in Ukraine in the early 2000's. 

I am interested in the modification to semi-automatic only.  Installing the blocking pin certainly accomplishes the intended purpose of preventing the selector from being moved to full auto.  A similar modification was done with some L1A1 and FAL rifles to prevent full auto operation.  As Tom Davis noted, I have not seen that before, but it is definitely preferable to welding internal components as is done in some countries.  However, I am wondering what happens with your rocker when you disassemble the gun.  Standard procedures for full auto guns is to always have the selector in full auto and safety off when removing the trigger frame for cleaning/maintenance.  This keeps the rocker lowered to avoid interfering with other components.  Since that pin prevents this, do you have any issues with interference when trying to remove the trigger frame from the receiver?

Again, welcome to the board, and enjoy your gun.  It is part of WWII history, and it is great that at least you get to fire it in Europe, which has become very difficult.

Roger