Early Savage Thompson model 1928

[TD.]

Patrick Vdv,

I am not seeing the picture of the "P" or proof mark stamped on the top of the barrel. I want to see if the stem of the letter P touches both the barrel collar and the end of the receiver.  

[Patrick Vdv]

6 minutes ago, TSMG28 said:

Patrick,

As you have learned from the responses to your query, you came to the right place for information about your Thompson.  Welcome!

Your gun was most definitely purchased by the British early in WWII, marked as a military arm, and put into use.  How it eventually got to Belgium, was refinished and converted, will likely never be known unless your can track it back from whoever sold it to you.  As far as current value in Belgium, it is difficult to say, as most of us on this board are familiar with pricing in other countries.  Some dealers in Luxembourg might be able to assist you with current pricing.  I believe Luxembourg still allows full-auto Thompsons to be owned.

The swivel that is mounted on the top of your buttstock is also a replacement.  It is the stamped metal design used on Thompson later in the war, especially the M1A1 models.  The original buttstock for you gun would have come with a milled swivel, which the British armorers would have moved to the top and filled in the bottom recess, as was done on your stock.

Since the vertical foregrip is a replacement, it is hard to say when or why the holes were drilled on the left side for mounting a swivel.  When the British armorers made this modification in 1940+, they installed an offset Enfield swivel on the Savage vertical foregrips.  None of the original Savage vertical foregrips came with swivels mounted, as far as I know.  The swivel bases of the Enfield swivel are different from the Remington swivel installed on the buttstock, so the hole separation and overall length is different.  Enfield swivels have a holes separation of ~1 inch, and an overall length of ~1.5 inches.  The Remington swivels have a hole separation of ~1.125 inches, and an overall length of ~1.625 inches.  I suggest you measure the hole separation of your buttsock screws and compare it with the hole separation on the foregrip.  If the separation is the same, whoever did that was probably planning to install a standard milled swivel.  If the separation is different, an Enfield offset swivel would be required there if you ever decide to add one.

As has been noted by several other people, your L-drum magazine is modern reproduction sold by Numrich in West Hurley, New York, starting in 1988. Be aware that some of those drums had serious manufacturing defects, preventing them from working properly.  Many actually work quite well, at least in semi-auto guns.  A few had the faceplates installed incorrectly, preventing the drum from even being inserted into a gun.  Hopefully yours inserts properly and feeds your ammo reliably for semi-auto fire.

Your latest pics do show your compensator is a Type II, consistent with the period your gun was made.  As has been discussed, your magazine catch, selector and safety have all been replaced with later versions at some point.  Perhaps this was done during the semi-only conversion by people who did not know the difference.  Perhaps whoever did it actually did know the difference, and knew that those early parts are much more valuable, at least in the U.S. market.  Pilfering of higher value parts for resale has been common, especially with all of the surplus Thompson that were released from the salt mines in Ukraine in the early 2000's. 

I am interested in the modification to semi-automatic only.  Installing the blocking pin certainly accomplishes the intended purpose of preventing the selector from being moved to full auto.  A similar modification was done with some L1A1 and FAL rifles to prevent full auto operation.  As Tom Davis noted, I have not seen that before, but it is definitely preferable to welding internal components as is done in some countries.  However, I am wondering what happens with your rocker when you disassemble the gun.  Standard procedures for full auto guns is to always have the selector in full auto and safety off when removing the trigger frame for cleaning/maintenance.  This keeps the rocker lowered to avoid interfering with other components.  Since that pin prevents this, do you have any issues with interference when trying to remove the trigger frame from the receiver?

Again, welcome to the board, and enjoy your gun.  It is part of WWII history, and it is great that at least you get to fire it in Europe, which has become very difficult.

Roger

Thank you Roger for the info. 

When I shoot the gun with the drum full of 50 bullets, half way I have to give it a few extra clicks to get more tension on the spring to empty the drum. It's fun firing this gun, very little recoil. 

[Patrick Vdv]

12 minutes ago, TD. said:

Patrick Vdv,

I am not seeing the picture of the "P" or proof mark stamped on the top of the barrel. I want to see if the stem of the letter P touches both the barrel collar and the end of the receiver.  

 

[TSMG28]

11 minutes ago, Patrick Vdv said:

Thank you Roger for the info. 

When I shoot the gun with the drum full of 50 bullets, half way I have to give it a few extra clicks to get more tension on the spring to empty the drum. It's fun firing this gun, very little recoil. 

Patrick,

Yes, weak springs was one of the problems with the West Hurley drums.  It was an even bigger problem with their later C-drums.  How many clicks are you winding the drum when fully loaded?

Roger

[TSMG28]

Patrick,

You might also take a look at the alignment of the rails on the inside.  There may be a tight spot that you could free up a bit to avoid the drum hanging up.  Rails out of alignment was another problem with the West Hurley drums.

Roger

[Patrick Vdv]

14 minutes ago, TSMG28 said:

Patrick,

Yes, weak springs was one of the problems with the West Hurley drums.  It was an even bigger problem with their later C-drums.  How many clicks are you winding the drum when fully loaded?

Roger

10 clicks, I don't want to damage the spring with a full drum. If I do 1 box of .45acp (25pc) then 11 clicks and no problem.

[Mk VII]

That foregrip looks very slab-sided - one of the many replica ones made over the years.

[TD.]

Patrick Vdv,

Thank you for the additional picture. I have little doubt your Savage Thompson was used by British forces during World War II. The military in Great Britain was asking for more and more Thompson guns when your Thompson was shipped to Great Britain in 1940. Each one was very valuable. No doubt it was put to immediate use. I would guess the original finish showed a lot of wear when the decision was made to re-blue it. I know the fore grip is not original. I would guess the same for the (pistol) grip and butt stock. That said, you have a very nice example of an early Savage Thompson with a New York address. If I lived in Belgium, I would try to buy it from you. 

TSMG28 is the authority on everything drums and magazines for the Thompson gun. If me, I would not use the West Hurley L drum and find a WWII L drum. You can always sell the WH L drum to offset some of your costs. Generally speaking, the WWII L drums fit and run nicely. One with the "U" marking (United Air Cleaner) on the faceplate would be perfect for your early Savage Thompson. 

Many other Savage Thompsons do have more markings on the left side receiver. The Thompson submachine guns purchased by the U.S. Army will have "U.S." and "A1" nomenclature markings added as well as ordnance inspectors' initials (for example: R.L.B.) and an ordnance mark (wheel or flaming bomb). Some guns purchased by the British under Cash & Carry will have the W or Woolwich mark inside a Crown stamped on the left side receiver, usually near the GEG stamp. Guns from other Allied forces may have different markings. 

Welcome to the wonderful world of Thompson submachine guns! 

[Patrick Vdv]

12 hours ago, TD. said:

Patrick Vdv,

I am not seeing the picture of the "P" or proof mark stamped on the top of the barrel. I want to see if the stem of the letter P touches both the barrel collar and the end of the receiver.  

Is this OK?

[TSMG28]

Patrick,

I understand your concern about spring damage on your drum.  There is a way to add grease to the spring cup to help protect the spring.  If you wish to investigate this, I suggest you search this board for references to drum greasing.  It is easy to create a drum greasing tool with off-the-shelf (at least in the U.S.) items, and I recall that some of the postings show how to create a greasing setup at home.  That said, a number of Thompson enthusiasts have fired many rounds through their WH L-drums for years before the idea of greasing the spring came up, so unless you are firing 1000's of rounds, you should be relatively safe even without greasing.

My earlier comment about the rail alignment is easy to check.  Just take a cartridge and by hand move it around the body tracks to see if there are any narrow spots.  Since you say that 25 rounds feeds without problem, it is possible that there is a narrow spot beyond the 25 round location.  Worth a check.  Since you wind to the full 11 clicks for 25 rounds, you should be able to do the same for 50 rounds without greater risk to the spring as long as there is not a narrow area of the tracks.  In fact, winding to 11 clicks for only 25 rounds actually puts greater stress on your spring.  The winding instructions are for a full drum.  If you insert only 25 rounds, when the drum is empty, the additional spring tension remaining is unwound suddenly, creating greater stress on the spring.  I suggest you investigate how many clicks are necessary to move the 25 rounds reliably, without leaving significant extra spring tension when the drum is empty.

All of that said, I agree with Tom that if you can find a WWII drum, that would be preferable.  He is correct that the United Specialties (United Air Cleaner plant) drums are historically a perfect fit, but you could also use a Crosby drum with silvered rotor.  That would also be correct for your early gun.  I wish you luck in your search.

Happy shooting!

Edited April 25 by TSMG28