Russell MFG Co. XX Pouches

[M40scoutsniper]

I am always on the lookout for TSMG goodies. Especially canvas WWII items. I recently have seen multiple RUSCO XX pouches on Ebay. However, they are not marked in the usual fashion I see them marked by Russell. They are marked much like their M1936 pistol belt with the “R.M. Co.”, instead of “RUSCO”. I was able to snag one of these pouches and wanted to share some pics and see if yall had run into this production variant. The last photo is an original photo of some Rangers taking a break in Italy. If you look closely you can see the XX mag pouch of the fella standing all the way to the right has a Russell pouch with the “US” on the center flap.

[M40scoutsniper]

[TD.]

M40scoutsniper,

Thank you for posting.

There are so many World War II reproduction style magazine pouches in the marketplace that everything now looks fake to me! I have never seen a 5-cell Thompson pouch marked "RUSCO" on the inside of a flap with a date mark. Perhaps this style is referenced in the new Thompson Encyclopedia series in a volume I do not have. I look forward to comments from other forum members who collect canvas gear.    

[Taliaferro]

I agree with Tom, I think that by 1942 Russell MFG was using the R. M. Co and date

codes as were required by the US ordnance department. The RUSCO marked 1942 

appears to be added later. Why someone would bother doing this is a mystery. 

 

Tracie Hill

[Bridgeport28A1]

Shhhh, the next batch of newly marked pouches will be  R.M. Co and date. 

 

[RoscoeTurner]

1 hour ago, Bridgeport28A1 said:

Shhhh, the next batch of newly marked pouches will be  R.M. Co and date. 

 

May as well talk about it, the "dress up" crowd is always pushing manufacturers to make this stuff more and more authentic every day.

[halftrack]

Look at the lift dots.  Usually the quality of those will help ideny repro vs authentic.

Edited May 1 by halftrack
Mis read

[Bridgeport28A1]

I expect the US RUSCO 1942 marked 5 cell pouch was formerly an unmarked WW2 five cell pouch that came back with the Russian/Ukraine Thompson parts kits and cleaning rods.

Marked US pouches have higher asking prices, marked pouches have turned into a buyer beware category unfortunately.

[rpbcps]

After reading this topic, I thought I would dig out my RUSCO marked 5 cell pouch, see attached.

As you can see the pouch in my collection is marked RUSCO, not R.M. Co, BUT has no date on it.

Intersted to know what those forum members who know more about pouches than me, (which is not a lot), think about this one?

Forgot to say, love the photo showing the Ranger, sitting on case opposite the Sgt., with his XX cell pouch holding a couple of 30 rnd magazines.

Edited May 1 by rpbcps
added ref to Ranger picture

[halftrack]

After comparing the above photos to about 10 examples I have (both original and reproductions), I have no doubt that the pouch itself is original.  The lift dots are original and I have yet to see any reproduction manufacturer come close to matching the back crimping of originals.  That being said, the pouch may be original but the markings are suspect. 

[The Moor]

Here is a pouch that is reported to be a RUSCO.  Opinions are welcomed and encouraged. Looks similar to a MILLS pouch and a RUSCO. Could this be an experimental 5 call XX pouch made at the time of the end of MILLs and the transition to RUSCO in early 1930. Check the markings on the lift the dot fasteners. Carr fastener company merged with another company and changed their name somewhere in the 1928-1932 time frame.  

Also check out the back of the snap fastener on the unmarked, alleged RUSCO, case. 

And finally a unmarked belt L drum pouch that is alleged WWII manufacture. 

Comments are welcomed and encouraged. 

Thanks,

The Moor

[TD.]

The Moor,

I really like that 5 cell Type XX magazine pouch. Thank you for sharing. The "CARR FAST. CO. BOSTON MASS" fasteners are a great indication this is an early RUSCO product. Does this pouch have any history or provenance? While I really don't study the canvas products, I do not remember ever seeing a pouch like this. Are there any more like it in the collection of other forum members? Yes, RUSCO used the CARR fasteners. I believe the fasteners with the BOSTON MASS markings are the earliest ones - but more data is needed to state that with any authority. 

I believe the snap found on your unmarked canvas carrying case is marked: UNITED CARR

If your magazine pouch is an example of an early (unmarked) RUSCO 5 cell magazine pouch, it begs the question why the very scarce 4 cell RUSCO marked magazine pouches where not made with the same CARR marked fasteners. One would think both types would be made in the same time frame.  

All good stuff!!!

[The Moor]

Also, What is interesting about this pouch is that is made like MILLS early pouches with the smooth cells on the outside and not distinct cell pockets.  And the flaps are made like RUSCO pouches, even with the early RUSCO fasteners. I know Tracie mentioned in Thompson Encyclopedia volume 7 that it is believed the MILLS made a five cell mag pouch but none had been seen to date. That is why I mentioned that this may have been something that was started at MILLS and finished at RUSCO.  The people from who I acquired this pouch said it came from a police department along with a M1921A and a L drum pouch of the same weave as the bottom of the XX mag pouch and also unmarked. (Yes I wish that I could have gotten that drum pouch but it was gone long before I came across the other stuff) They did not remember about the fastener on the drum  pouch.  The unmarked case is in new condition, never had a gun in it and came out of the Colt factory warehouses in the late 1990s or early 2000s.  I very carefully removed some of the vertigras to make the word CARR. I will go back and try to clean around the other word, I thought it said Patent. 

[TD.]

The Moor,

I find it an interesting piece of canvas. I recommend identifying the actual police department and the serial number of the "M1921A" Thompson submachine gun. I would seek a letter from the seller with this information. All documentation with any unusual piece like this is very important. I want to know when that Model of 1921A was shipped by Auto-0rdnance. Could there be a newspaper picture of policeman wearing this magazine pouch showing off the then "new" Thompson submachine gun? It is certainly worth the search, but you need to provide the starting point with information from the seller. 

Before the Mills Belt Company went out of business in 1930, they very well could have designed this pouch and provided the drawings to the Auto-Ordnance Corporation. Given the Mills company propensity for marking canvas items, it is hard to believe they would have let an actual canvas piece like this leave the factory with no markings. If a sample piece by Mills was provided to Auto-Ordnance, it would not be surprising Auto-Ordnance later sold it. When the inventory of Mills manufactured items was depleted, Auto-Ordnance turned to the Russell Manufacturing Company (RUSCO) to manufacture canvas items. The first evidence is in the 51 Pine Street Auto-Ordnance catalog with the introduction of the 5-cell magazine (marked) pouch with individual flaps. While Mills items are also pictured in this catalog, all references to the Mills company were removed.

Let's not forget that Mills did manufacture a magazine pouch with individual flaps. Is there any similarity to this unmarked 5-cell pouch to the 2-cell Mills shot shell pouch? 

 

Those with my book, Thompson: Colt's, West Hurley's & More, may recognize this Mills shot shell pouch in the cover photograph. The Moor, you have something that may be very special. Let's do some research and see what turns up. 

 

 

Edited May 4 by TD.

[The Moor]

3 hours ago, TD. said:

The Moor,

I find it an interesting piece of canvas. I recommend identifying the actual police department and the serial number of the "M1921A" Thompson submachine gun. I would seek a letter from the seller with this information. All documentation with any unusual piece like this is very important. I want to know when that Model of 1921A was shipped by Auto-0rdnance. Could there be a newspaper picture of policeman wearing this magazine pouch showing off the then "new" Thompson submachine gun? It is certainly worth the search, but you need to provide the starting point with information from the seller. 

Before the Mills Belt Company went out of business in 1930, they very well could have designed this pouch and provided the drawings to the Auto-Ordnance Corporation. Given the Mills company propensity for marking canvas items, it is hard to believe they would have let an actual canvas piece like this leave the factory with no markings. If a sample piece by Mills was provided to Auto-Ordnance, it would not be surprising Auto-Ordnance later sold it. When the inventory of Mills manufactured items was depleted, Auto-Ordnance turned to the Russell Manufacturing Company (RUSCO) to manufacture canvas items. The first evidence is in the 51 Pine Street Auto-Ordnance catalog with the introduction of the 5-cell magazine (marked) pouch with individual flaps. While Mills items are also pictured in this catalog, all references to the Mills company were removed.

Let's not forget that Mills did manufacture a magazine pouch with individual flaps. Is there any similarity to this unmarked 5-cell pouch to the 2-cell Mills shot shell pouch? 

 

Those with my book, Thompson: Colt's, West Hurley's & More, may recognize this Mills shot shell pouch in the cover photograph. The Moor, you have something that may be very special. Let's do some research and see what turns up. 

 

 

TD, 

I recently acquired your book that you mention above and as a result I have submitted a FOIA request on my latest purchased Thompson , a Colt US Navy Model 1928.  I also submitted a FOIA on my other Thompson, a Savage US Model 1928 A1.  I love researching history, if I only had more time. TOO MANY HOBBIES and my work for GOD, which always comes first.   Your book and your knowledge has been a blessing to me. 

Yes I noticed the shot mag pouch on the cover. While the fasteners on the shot mag pouch flaps are not marked, the construction of the pouch pockets is identical to the five cell pouch that I have.  

I going to get back in touch with the seller of the mag pouch and see how much information I can obtain from them on the particulars of the pouches and the original department that owned the 21A. 

Wonder if I should start another thread with just the XX five cell pouch.  I feel that there is someone out there that may be able to share knowledge. 

Thanks,

Robert

[TD.]

Robert,

Thank you for purchasing a copy of my book. I appreciate the kind words. 

I will be glad to help you decipher any questions you may have with the FOIA results.  

I understand being busy. Hat's off to your work for GOD. That certainly comes first!

I will be glad to assist with some research when you find out where the pouch came from. We need a starting point. Good luck with the seller. When requesting a letter, I have found that sometimes if you offer to write the letter, the other party is much more inclined to agree if all they have to do is sign.