Thompson 1928A1 identification

[weem0]

Hi there, first time posting and from the uk, I'm considering buying this thompson deactivated 1928A1 and wanted to know if it was lend lease and possibly uk service based on the markings etc,  Many thanks,

[Lewisfan]

Great looking gun.

[Rekraps]

That cutts is STRONG! Wow.....

[TD.]

weem0,

Welcome to the Thompson forum.

The Thompson you pictured is late Savage Arms production, probably manufactured in early 1942. I do not see any markings that denote a positive indication of British ownership in the past. Generally speaking, British markings are mostly found on the right-side receiver nose - or a letter W inside a Crown mark on the left side upper receiver toward the ejector. The most common mark is the British Broad Arrow mark denoting British government ownership.  That said, I don't know if the British routinely marked the Thompson guns acquired via the Lend-Lease Act. Hopefully, other forum members will join in this discussion. British ownership markings are very common on the Thompson guns acquired during the entire Cash and Carry period. 

What I do see on the Savage Arms Thompson you pictured is a forced serial number match for the serial number. The frame is of Savage Arms manufacture, but the original serial number has been ground off and the receiver serial number stamped on the frame to match. This is very common on Thompson guns coming out of the former Soviet Union and turned into dewats/deacs or part kits for the USA. If me, I would look for a deac with original matching frame and receiver serial numbers. 

If you like Thompson guns, I highly recommend, American Thunder, Third Edition, by Frank Iannamico or Great Britian - The Tommy Gun Story, by Tom Davis, Jr. Both are available on Amazon.com.

[rpbcps]

Hi Weem0,

Welcome to the forum, there are a few other members on here who are based in the UK, like myself.

Nice example of a late production lend lease gun 1928A1. The later guns had the battle sight, (this one is a 2nd version of the Lyman fixed aperture rear ‘L’ sight), and smooth barrels, as well as the smooth finished selector and safety levers.

It looks like the original serial number on the pistol frame has been ground away and the serial number on the receiver, added to the pistol frame, making it a 'forced' match. 

I can not see markings on the Savage made receiver, but they will probably be  the ‘GEG’ inspector stamp of the AOC 
inspector, George E. Goll, and the receivers usually bear the ‘RLB’ stamp of Army inspector ‘Roy L. Bowlin’. 

 

 

 

[rpbcps]

8 minutes ago, TD. said:

weem0,

Welcome to the Thompson forum.

The Thompson you pictured is late Savage Arms production, probably manufactured in early 1942. I do not see any markings that denote a positive indication of British ownership in the past. Generally speaking, British markings are mostly found on the right-side receiver nose - or a letter W inside a Crown mark on the left side upper receiver toward the ejector. The most common mark is the British Broad Arrow mark denoting British government ownership.  That said, I don't know if the British routinely marked the Thompson guns acquired via the Lend-Lease Act. Hopefully, other forum members will join in this discussion. British ownership markings are very common on the Thompson guns acquired during the entire Cash and Carry period. 

What I do see on the Savage Arms Thompson you pictured is a forced serial number match for the serial number. The frame is of Savage Arms manufacture, but the original serial number has been ground off and the receiver serial number stamped on the frame to match. This is very common on Thompson guns coming out of the former Soviet Union and turned into dewats/deacs or part kits for the USA. If me, I would look for a deac with original matching frame and receiver serial numbers. 

If you like Thompson guns, I highly recommend, American Thunder, Third Edition, by Frank Iannamico or Great Britian - The Tommy Gun Story, by Tom Davis, Jr. Both are available on Amazon.com.

Tom,

I read the lend lease guns, unlike the earlier Model of 1928's, had no British markings on them, as they were property of the US Govt, on Lend Lease.

Two of my early Model of 1928s, one a Patent Date NY Address and the other a Bridgeport address, have had their serial numbers on the trigger frame ground off, and the Bridgeports has had the serial number on the receiver, added to the trigger frame.

One of my 1928A1's also has the serial number on the trigger frame ground off, as well as the serial number on the receiver. That was a weapon recovered in Northern Ireland however, so the ground off serial numbers were for another purpose ?

Weem0, 

I also recommend both those books, especially Toms Book, Great Britian - The Tommy Gun Story, which is relevant to British collectors. Both are available on Amazon.co.uk.

[weem0]

Thank you all for your replies, what is the overall view on this thompson, lend lease but not British service? Inconclusive? Please let me know

[rpbcps]

Definitely lend lease, but as Tom said, it could be British, or Soviet. A lot of Thompsons were shipped into the UK in the 2000’s from the Ukraine, in new, unused condition, still in packing cases.

The fact the markings are so pristine , I would lean towards this being a Soviet gun. The former British guns you find, are usually well used and abused.

No way, that I am aware of, for finding out for sure, if it is British or Soviet though.

[TSMG28]

Weem0,

I agree with all of the comments so far. Based on my past inspection of more than 50 deac Thompsons in Britain between the mid-2000’s  and 2016, I suspect this gun came from the Soviet stash in Ukraine. That said, there is no way to prove where it came from. 
 

If they were kept intact into Britain, the guns would have had matching trigger frames, but I suspect they entered Britain as parts, handled by jobbers who brought them out of Ukraine.

Almost every gun I have inspected from shops in Nottingham to vendors at War and Peace shows have had the serial number ground off the trigger frame and restamped as a forced number match. I don’t recall any that used the S prefix for Savage guns on the trigger frame.

Hope that helps. 

[Mk VII]

The poor finish on the receiver is evident on these high-numbered ones, with some rather dull cutting tools and less effort being put into the appearance of the piece.  

The dismal European DEWAT standard, imposed on us by the EU, with the goalposts shifting several times, means there is very little means of looking inside these guns.  

[anjong-ni]

When the "Russian Parts kits" began to be imported years ago, I got several.

In really pristine condition.

Painted with "lamp-black", but none of my early batch had the lower serial-numbers ground off and re-stamped...

Wonder why?     Phil

 

[TSMGguy]

Another give away is that the serial number fonts are different. Originally, the receivers and frames were numbered with the same dies. Minor differences in depths and alignment will be identical.

[BillyDixon]

could you show how these are deacavited in the UK, welded with pins thru ? could you show what paperwork comes with a UK deactivated gun, is your name on any documents or what, just askin

[rpbcps]

3 hours ago, BillyDixon said:

could you show how these are deacavited in the UK, welded with pins thru ? could you show what paperwork comes with a UK deactivated gun, is your name on any documents or what, just askin

Over the years, the specifications have changed for firearm deactivation in the UK, and in Europe.

The current UK specification for military weapons, states that the barrel is blocked, pinned and cut. The bolt face is ground away at an angle along with the firing pin. The bolt can move within the gun, but cannot be removed, (unable to strip the deactivations). The trigger may move, but there will be no connection between it and the bolt, so the gun will not cock or dry fire.

Older specifications could cock and dry fire, pre 2018 specification. Weapons deactivated prior to 1995 could also be stripped.

In the UK, the deactivated weapons also need to have the London or Birmingham proof house stamps on them to show they have been deactivated. You can see examples of these stamps in the image above of left hand side of the receiver, next to the serial number. There are several deactivation stamps in this example, although unclear, to me what they all are in the image. So I presume, this example has been originally deactivated to an older specification and then deactivated again, to the more recent specifications. The barrels should also be marked with these proof house deactivation stamps.

The certificates do not have the owners name on them. They show the details of the weapon, serial number, calibre, manufacturer and model. The person, or the company, that carried out the deactivation and the date it was done is also found on the certificate.

 

[TD.]

Mk VII and rcbcps,

Great information. Thanks for sharing. 

If Great Britain is no longer a member of the European Union, why does it still follow the weapon deactivation specifications of the European Union. 

[Lewisfan]

Here's a comparison of SN stamps from a different "late features" gun (L sight,, smooth barrel, etc.). 

[rpbcps]

3 hours ago, TD. said:

Mk VII and rcbcps,

Great information. Thanks for sharing. 

If Great Britain is no longer a member of the European Union, why does it still follow the weapon deactivation specifications of the European Union. 

Good question , I have a feeling our current govt. is trying to get us back into the EU club.

The UK deactivation rules have always been one of the most Draconian in Europe though.

The rest of Europe, through the EU, only acted when some poorly deactivated weapons, (Czech Republic deactivations if I recall correctly) were 'reactivated' and used in the attacks in France in 2016.

Edited May 30, 2025 by rpbcps
Typo

[Mk VII]

On 5/30/2025 at 2:46 PM, TD. said:

If Great Britain is no longer a member of the European Union, why does it still follow the weapon deactivation specifications of the European Union. 

There is no significant body of public opinion to be placated by changing it (yet again).  And they have more important Euro matters to consider as a priority first.  

Older deacts are not supposed to change hands but a large gray market exists amongst people doing it anyway.  

You are supposed to notify the gov when one of the current spec ones changes hands, but I doubt if many people do.