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I submitted a poll on this very issue on this board and the overwhelming majority of people who voted were in favor of some identifying mark on such parts.


In order for your militant resistance to GH marking any of these parts in the most unobtrusive manner to make sense, you will have to tell me how such a process would cause you so much discomfort that you would just as soon reject the part. Since you already know it is a repro, how would this mark make you believe otherwise? Did you think that after a year past, you would wake up one day and forget that you didn't have an original spare parts box, or Colt ejector? What if one day GH told you that he had indeed secretly marked these items? Would you throw them out?


Maybe you are still coming down off the high of meeting GH at the SAR show. But your remark that this topic is analogous to guns causing crime reveals your argument to be obdurate and feckless. GH is a person, not an inanimate object. Again, his intentions may have been pure gold, but why leave the door open for others down the road to profit where GH never intended them to do so?


Your jejune solution for owners to apply their own marks to GH's intentionally unmarked products sounds like an idea worthy of Johnny Cochran.

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QUOTE (john @ Dec 7 2004, 05:17 PM)

BTW, anyone ever think about knurling a smooth actuator knob or a smooth selector?? Wouldn't be too tough to do....... http://www.machinegunbooks.com/forums/invboard1_1_2/upload/html/emoticons/dry.gif

Piece of cake to take a smooth selector and or safety, drill and chamfer a hole, and use a checkering file to knurl them.


What tips them off from originals is that undefinable patina of age, which included the smoothing of the knurling by the contact of fingers over years and years.




PS: It all depends on your world view of things as far as reproduction/new productions/counterfeit goes.


Those that want things marked most likely already have a sizable amount invested in stuff and don't want that investment diluted by things that the question arises as to whether they may or may not be original.


As far as views on things, I, for example, don't see anything wrong with leaving a beer bottle in a suitably remote spot. Some may call it litter; I think of it as doing a public service be leaving an archeological artifact for future generations to find and cherish. I mean, wouldn't you be all excited to find a bottle from 1880 laying in a remote mountain valley? In 2130, I will make someones life happier by the beer bottle I left behind.http://www.machinegunbooks.com/forums/invboard1_1_2/upload/html/emoticons/laugh.gif



Edited by AZDoug
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Nobody is stopping you. Put your own initials on it if it makes you happy. It's kinda like Kids and Television, folks!! If you don't want your kids watching a sex scene on TV, TURN IT OFF!!! The power is yours. If you don't like the fact that Gordon doesn't mark his parts, don't buy them, or buy them and mark them yourself.


I suppose that if your kids don't watch sex on TV then everything will be alright. People don't buy reproduction parts that are unmarked to go out and market the wares as originals. At least we hope they dont. I doubt Gordon wants this to happen. However, he reads this board, and he is reading this topic I know. This is at least the third instance of this "mark the part" crap coming up. Why doesn't he go ahead and mark the part? Doug Richardson makes 1921 barrels out of despised M1 barrells and I understand they look EXACTLY like real REMINGTON 21 barrels. He DOES NOT MARK THEM. Both Gordo and Doug are HIGHLY RESPECTED THOMPSON PEOPLE. They are even up there with Frank and Tracy Hill. BuT.........


Mark the FUCKING REPRODUCTION PART people. Is that so hard to understand.



As all of you know, I have no interest in Colt Thompsons and all the garbage that goes along with them, but If I was a Colt Thompson collector, I would be very upset about all the reproduction parts that go unmarked.





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QUOTE (LIONHART @ Dec 8 2004, 01:07 PM)
It's simple. A perfect reproduction isn't perfect if it's marked.

I've resisted weighting in this issue because feelings are so strong on both sides of the issue and it has become obvious that no minds are going to be changed. But regardless of this I just have to point this out because it really IS simple. A perfect reproduction that is'nt marked has a name. It's called a counterfeit.

Anyone can tell that this just doesn't pass the smell test.

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If you are indeed a stickler for perfection and originality, then BUY the original. If you are into reproductions, no matter how authentic, but never genuine, then you should have no problem with allowing others to know that your part is a repro, just a you know it is. We are talking about three dimensional functional, utilitarian pieces, not Object D'art. But what is considered a forgery in the latter's world is also applicable in the repro firearm parts world.


A counterfeit $20 bill is still counterfeit whether the owner passes it off at the Walgreens or holds on to it for life.


An artist is allowed to make twelve copies of their sculpture, but all have to be numbered. Any further copy, even if made in the artist's lifetime and under their supervision, is legally considered a reproduction, and the word "reproduction" must appear on the sculpture. But there is no specification as to the size and placement of said marking.


Granted the penalties and eventual enforcement for fraud in the art world are way beyond what we are talking about here. Would, or should, GH do 18 months in prison like Guy Hain did for his bronze forgeries? Only if a Colt TSMG ever hangs in the Louvre and is discovered to have forged parts, I guess.

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Die thread, DIE!


No one on this board is going to change their mind on this subject.


Can we all just agree on that?





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Actually, I'm just sitting here removing fresh Pudding Skins with an Exacto Knife. Hopefully if I'm quick, more Skins will grow....


Say Norm, sorry I haven't yet emailed you that Pic. I will get to it soon.

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One thing we know - the beat goes on!


Each person has a different positon on the issue - I had a chance to purchase a "real nice" Colt patterson several years ago, one problem - fake bbl. I wouldnt touch it with a ten foot pole. This was too much restoration. A small part like a trigger would have passed, but not the complete BBl.


Some day this gun will be passed off as original and someone will get it in the shorts. Maybe at that time the price of pattersons will be such, and number available will make the buyer not care.


The small parts for the thompson I can live with, Doug's BBl I can live with because it will be next to impossible for an advanced collector not to know its a replacement - at least it saves a gun, the next issue is value - that's up to the buyer and seller.


Gordon's box - its not the exact same as an original, my suggestion is know what you are looking at before putting any serious money out on any gun item.


Not everyone will agree on this issue - that's your right - if you don't like the repo don't buy them!


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QUOTE (PhilOhio @ Dec 8 2004, 10:36 AM)
And I'm dubious about Doug's argument that his dumping of beer bottles in the wild is a laudable service to future archaeologists. Are you putting us on? http://www.machinegunbooks.com/forums/invboard1_1_2/upload/html/emoticons/blink.gif

I don't *dump* bottles or other item, I place them in remote locations, where they may be found later. You will never see one of my future artifacts on a casual stroll around. Maybe though in a cave, grotto, or sheltered area, or perhaps in a jumble of rocks a mile from the nearest trail.


Todays trash is tomorrows treasure. remember all those 1930's cars they used to dump in the riverbanks to controll erosion? Bet you would like that 1934 Ford a lot better today, if it wasn't all rusted out from the mud. If this stuff wasn't intersting, why are archaologists even employed? Just bulldoze evrything down as trash, destroy the past. But the past, begins today.


Failure to see the future, makes us destory the present.


I remember a conversation witha ranger person at a national forest. We were discussing what was up this trail in a wilderness area. She said a ghost town and a bunch of mining trash. i asked what kind of trash. She said old buildings, machinery, processing stuff, etc, but the forest service was going to remove it. I asked why? Why leave a ghost town and not the mining stuff. her reply was: "well, the ghost town is from the 1880's and is historic, the mine was abandonded in the 1950's, it is just junk." I then asked her: 'well, don't you think people might find that mining operation as interesting and historic as a ghost town 100 years from now?" All i got was a dirty look.


it all depends on your view of things,and to blythly state that it isn't relative, is a crock.



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now i know why i post less...


after reading this all again.........at s.a.r.show gordon and the other's had some great table's and display's...and was selling his ware's to pay the $90.00 per table rent....and his great gangster outfit.... so why press the man..................soon we will be gone from the planet.....the metal parts will still be around....so what???


we won't,and somebody else can have fun with this stuff.wink!!


folk's we need to get a life.....or change it!! take care,ron

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Come one Ron, tell us how your really feeling! Care to share in a Pudding Skin? I was quite successful in reheating the Pudding Cups again, to create another layer of Skin. Of course I had to carefully mark each one, Reproduction with my Knife, seeing that these weren't the Originals. Oh well....
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okay my true feeling's i am glad somebody is making anything for any thing now....i went back to buying german g-43's and k-43's....and yep not as bad as thompson's....you can still hopefully find a minty almost in grease, rifle matched with complete original scope and mount for $5,000.00


wow thats 1980 thompson price's.....and yes there is g-43 k-43 greed also...{go shop for them}


and since i was lucky enough on my first buying spree.to find a rare one.per the book{hitler's garand's} only twelve known...


I'M HAPPY! now back to gordon....he's a great man would accept him as my brother anyday......and help's all collector's with nice stuff....have i ever made parts in my days of buying and selling? nope!!


did i ever wish i could have a actuator...or rear sight,or wood in much better shape? YES!


and every thompson guy i know out there.wants thee best he can afford..within reason...when i collected thompson's. fn- fal's,svd sniper's colt's 1911,single action's p-38's luger's, garands'.ak-47's ak-74's,belt feed's...i always tried to get the best of the best....and in alot of them new in crate or mint,or new in issued box was the best you could get...


even my mp-38 was mint and fg-42 years ago.


however one day it all come's to a end...no more mint stuff no more nice part's,no replacement's of anykind...or big buck's...


i just paid a guy $600.00 for six new mp-40 mags...


sound nut's??find new one's again....and sold four new patent date mags.to a good buddy on this board last week...find new one's again.....everything colt and military has gone bonker's....check out s.a.r.show price's...


i know i was there for 48 hour's looking...


all the classics are just about gone..a guy asked me at the show on his beater navy 28 a value....i told him truthfully i would have given him between $10,000.00 to $12,000.00 for it.he had told me at the show he had a half dozen offer's of over $15,000.00>and was waiting for $20,000.00........a 50% condition gun..crazy huh??


{ i gave him ten minute's or better of my time .no charge}now that's love for the stuff.wink!!


so if somebody now makes everything thompson so what???if i buy something i try and check it out the best i can...and i do ask other opinion's....and hope whom i'm asking know's more about it then i do...whatever the subject maybe.


if i decided to make a part whatever it would be for whatever gun.i would try and make it as exact as possible,mark it no way....i would sell it as a replacement of whatever it is....NOT ORIGINAL > but duplicate current made..


do collector's get duped?? yes everyday.....and i have 100 storie's on that subject..have i myself over the year's..not that i can remember...i have a keen eye for this stuff.and many book's and picture's.and i ask question's.and and not afraid to ask how did you buy this gun....


my latest purhase,i am asking to speak to the deceased last living son>


i am sure 20 years from now people will have the brush,box firing pins{whoop's}actuator's,case's..manual's and all..and think this might be original...and it might be a repo.???


will some care?/yes! will other's nope!


i am on the downslide in collecting...ya know 33 year's...do i still enjoy it?YES, the hunt.


however i do get tired of all the rehashing of collecting this and who did that and repro that and can't import that....


i just about know everybody in the bizz,that is worth knowing!


do i care if they know me or use me for my info..who care's..


it's all about the history,the magic.and that we can do this stuff.


maybe other collector's in everything else are even more emotional on this subject of marking's,and repro's and phony stuff..i'm not!


and if i ever did get burned >i would sell it and tell the other party what it is upfront,and what they are buying...


and if i ever did make a mistake on selling anything in my collection to somebody....the deal must have been darn good in their eye's..because i never got anything back.


{and thats a fact}


so let gordon be,and doug richardson,and numrich tommygun man.and the other's who sell this stuff... WHY!


because then some would be moaning that we can't find original's>why doe's somebody not make a repro??go figure!!


all the last collection of stuff i sold was new complete or original!and some said {not here}it looks to good to be original>i asked how long you been collecting???ANSWER under five year's:


my answer to that....you've got a long way baby! a very long way!


everybody have fun with this stuff.it's the history,and not the buck's.


at the sa.r. i saw the buck's,and really little history.except gordon's table's and his buddie's..merle,murray.doug,and tommyman.{did not get his name}


well enough ya-da ya-da..hope you old timers and youngblood's did not throw up reading this post....i think it equaled ohio phil's for filler...but not content.wink!!


take care all...ron

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FWIW. I bought a Colt SAA through the Single Action Shooting Society (SASS) a while back and after a year's wait, it came so badly out of time that I had to spend $125 to make it run. (The revolver had cost $1450 from Colt.) The grips look like they were fitted by a retarded ape with a hand file. The sight's so far off that the gun shoots 7 inches high at 30 yards.


It was about 20% of one of the Italian repros.


The interesting point, and one I still puzzle over, is that the Colt came with an Uberti parts catalog (Uberti builds Italian SAA repros). Now, what am I to beleve? Does Colt advise I use repro parts in my expen$ive SAA, or are THEY using Uberti parts?


Where does it all end? Do I own a REAL Colt, or what? http://www.machinegunbooks.com/forums/invboard1_1_2/upload/html/emoticons/blink.gif

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QUOTE (Poprivit @ Dec 9 2004, 03:48 PM)
FWIW. I bought a Colt SAA through the Single Action Shooting Society (SASS) a while back and after a year's wait, it came so badly out of time that I had to spend $125 to make it run. (The revolver had cost $1450 from Colt.) The grips look like they were fitted by a retarded ape with a hand file. The sight's so far off that the gun shoots 7 inches high at 30 yards.

It was about 20% of one of the Italian repros.

The interesting point, and one I still puzzle over, is that the Colt came with an Uberti parts catalog (Uberti builds Italian SAA repros). Now, what am I to beleve? Does Colt advise I use repro parts in my expen$ive SAA, or are THEY using Uberti parts?

Where does it all end? Do I own a REAL Colt, or what? http://www.machinegunbooks.com/forums/invboard1_1_2/upload/html/emoticons/blink.gif

however were you happy with the colt 1911a1 you bought from me?? thats the hard question. wink!!


yes everybody today is using other part's and whatever they can....even the m-16 series is full of other companies item's...put together at colt!! at least.........have a good holidays take care,ron

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The gun collecting biz/hobby is a very strange one.


it is about the only collectible that is worth more as an untouched original rusty pile of shit than in a professionally restored condition.


They restored the Mona Lisa, and the Sistine Chapel roof, which included adding new paint and stailizing the base. Are they now worth less, or considered non-original? Hell no.


Do you see people paying mega bucks on old clapped out 1964 Nova SS's that have all teh original parts? No, they pay the mega bucks for the retored Nova, which has it's share of new manufactured parts.


Only in guns do people look ata gun and say" that looks refinished, it is worthless now".


That is what i mean by relativity. on something, resto is OK and accepeted, on others it is not.



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AZ Doug,

But the curators of the Sistine Chapel are not passing off the Michelangelo roof as never having been maintained in order to keep it from eroding altogether. There is absolutely nothing more patently false that any restoration or preservation of firearms, swords, paintings, bronzes, leather, wood, etc is detrimental to the value of the item, if it is done by experts in their field, and if continued neglect means further deterioration and eventual worthlessness of said item. If any firearm is so pitted and rusted and completely devoid of any semblance of what it once was, then of course it is obligatory to save the item by refinishing it.


But again, the argument is not about sacrificing the repro part at the expense of the whole piece. It is the honesty about what transpired, when and why.


I have never seen so many convoluted and twisted analogies as to why it's OK to have counterfeit parts flooding the market. The truly confounding argument, "Who will care in 100 years anyway," is exactly the same one made by no name artists back in the 19th century, who copied the Masters and figured that time would blur the originals from the forgeries. It didn't take Nostradamus to invalidate that theory.

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A quick note from working in the art field.


Mr. Rembrandt made a lot of etchings in his time. These were steel

plates, coated with an acid resist paint, scratched with a needle and then etched with acid.

Ink is applied to the plate, wiped to stay in the lines, then transfered to a sheet of paper under pressure. Beautiful little things. And you can make more then one.

Fetch quite a handsome price nowaydays.


After his death, low and behold, the plates remained. The various estates controlling them re-printed them in what

is refered to as a "re-strike". These fetch quite a bit less money, but are still valuble for what they are.

In most cases, a re-strike has a identifiying mark, put there by the printer, inside the image margin,

or a stamp stating it is a re-strike, printed by so and so on the back.


What get's quite sticky, are the re-strikes that are not marked. Now these may have been re-struck over a hundred years ago... providence being lost by time, so, it's hard to tell if it's an oringinal ( okayed by Rembrandt himself), or something printed after he was dead.

Great Big difference in Money http://www.machinegunbooks.com/forums/invboard1_1_2/upload/html/emoticons/sad.gif

Many folks have bought a re-strike thinking it was an original (from both reputable and shady dealers and auction houses).


Then again, I personally know a fellow who bought a supposed "un-marked" re-strike Rembrandt self portrait at a used book store in London for about $200.00 only to find out later it was authentic, by an expert from the Art Institute of Chicago.

His $57,000.00 print is quite nice, and the price was right:)

A very sticky subject, indeed.

I guess it's " let the buyer beware" for me... If it seems like too good of a deal, it probably is.


Lionhart: I can't belive I've found someone else who actually harvests pudding skins!!!!

My wife thinks I'm nut's http://www.machinegunbooks.com/forums/invboard1_1_2/upload/html/emoticons/smile.gif I have gotten to the point of pouring the pudding onto cookie sheets, very thin, and coming up with yards of the stuff. Roll em up like crepes!


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Lionhart: I can't belive I've found someone else who actually harvests pudding skins!!!!
My wife thinks I'm nut's  I have gotten to the point of pouring the pudding onto cookie sheets, very thin, and coming up with yards of the stuff. Roll em up like crepes!


Wow, what a fantastic idea Zamm! I made another batch early this afternoon, but tomorrow, I'm going to try your method. Thanks for passing this by. This board is great...

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It's nice to know that some here (Lionhart and a few others) have enough common sense to know what the hell I am talking about.

Arthur, I guess you really told me, eh, buddy? Oh, and those big words....obviously you are waaaayyyyyy smarter than me. http://www.machinegunbooks.com/forums/invboard1_1_2/upload/html/emoticons/wink.gif BTW, I don't get any sort of "high" from meeting anybody in particular and for your info I met Gordon last summer in DC. The SAR show was the second time I've enjoyed his company. I like the man because he is (unlike some....) genuinely decent. I don't care for those who are so far into their own opinions that they can't ever entertain a notion that someone else MIGHT be right (not saying I am on this matter, but it won't make any difference to some anyway!) or might have a differing opinion than their own.

I guess that what we should do to make everyone here happy is to pass all manner of legislation to make sure scoundrels like Gordon never have the opportunity to make potential crooks out of the rest of us, right? (Hey Arthur! Ever see the Sci-Fi movie "Minority Report"? Bet you really liked that one, huh??)

Oh Yeah. As a matter of fact, let's make so damned many laws to protect everyone that we are forever hobbled by so much red tape and legalese that we will never ever think of doing something that might irk the moral fiber of those righteous few who would do our thinking for us. http://www.machinegunbooks.com/forums/invboard1_1_2/upload/html/emoticons/wink.gif

And the first new law could be the "Arthur Fleigenheimer Thompson Parts Counterfeit Protection Act". Just what we need. Politicians and Righteous wanna-bes making our decisions for us!!! That is one of the bad ideals that the founding Fathers fought the Revolution to prevent, isn't it?


Come on folks!


What I said was that we need to take care of ourselves. We certainly don't need someone else (Arthur,Philohio OR the Government) making all our decisions for us..............


Arthur, after all finally settled down after your last big rant a couple years ago, and having read many very intelligent posts from you since then, I was actually thinking that you might not be such a horses --- after all. But once again, time has proven me wrong!!

I won't make that mistake again!!


And for the rest who disagree with me, SORRY!! http://www.machinegunbooks.com/forums/invboard1_1_2/upload/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif As I said SEVERAL TIMES in my original post, These are just MY OPINIONS!! But everyone here is SOOOOOOO serious sometimes, and then there are those who would tell you that you are not entitled to your own opinions..... http://www.machinegunbooks.com/forums/invboard1_1_2/upload/html/emoticons/dry.gif


My original post started out as kind of a light-hearted rant that merely expressed my opinion, and I hoped this board still allowed that. But Arthur and a couple others really kinda pissed me off with their vitriolic posts that are seemingly or directly aimed at those of us who would dare tread on THEIR opinions....

Sorry if I offended anyone else.....


Arthur, even you are entitled to your opinion. I disagree with it completely. And I don't expect you to agree with mine. But it would be decent of you to honor the fact that I, too am entitled to my opinion. Or am I??



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The ONLY persons who are effected by unmarked Duplicates are those who profit from Thompson Greed.


You added two and two and came up with five. Since these bogus unmarked parts didn't hit the scene for Colt TSMG's until the firearm itself reached their $30K-$40K market value for the best examples, it is those who manufacture the un marked parts that tap into the so called "TSMG greed." Why else turn out, in SecondAmend's own words, "virtually identical" parts that wind up substituting missing, or broken original parts in these very same high dollar firearms where the allegedly unscrupulous owner doesn't fancy tell tale signs for these "substituted" parts.


Since NFA weapons are illegal in your state, your indifference, or rather preference for unmarked parts is innocuous enough, if not puzzling, since you don't have the weapon they plug into.


Again your rational that there is no difference between factory made parts for their own firearm and repro parts posing as factory made ones, now includes the bizarre notion that in order for the part to be correct and of the time period for the gun, it had to leave the factory with that part on it. This is patently absurd since we all know that all 1921 TSMG's did not have Cutts, or the original barrels that were fitted to the gun on the assembly line when customers wanted the second pattern Cutts fitted to the newly produced barrels that accommodated them. Not to mention the Auto- Ord's Navy actuators pilot/buffer/spring.


No one can guarantee that the wood on their TSMG is the exact one the firearm left the factory with. And the market value for these firearms isn't even concerned with that unprovable aspect of the firearm. And since the parts to the Colt TSMG are not numbered, naturally parts from other Colt TSMG's may have been substituted for the ones that the firearm left the factory with.


None of this has anything to do with those who would "allegedly" commit fraud by substituting unmarked Colt type parts posing as originals in a firearm that have nothing to do with the original gun manufacturer.


The substitution of NOS Savage/ AO parts in WWII TSMG's hasn't affected their value at all. No doubt these firearms have been rebuilt multiple times. But as long as they are made up of their NOS parts, then no harm no foul.


How can you compare a helmet, that may or may not have had a decal, or insignia on it ever, to a firearm that has to have the exact number of parts according to it's own designation? As long as the parts are from the manufacturer, then there is no reason to expect deception.

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