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Wts: Thompson 28 Wh , Fbi , Drum, Parts,$16.3k Pic


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After much debate I am selling my WH and keeping my C&R Savage 28. http://www.machinegunbooks.com/forums/invboard1_1_2/upload/html/emoticons/sad.gif

 

For Sale: Thompson U.S. Model 1928, West Hurley, Serial number 2534A, gun is in very good to excellent condition. It comes with a Kahr "L" Drum that has been to Merel for proper tuning and it runs great. The FBI case is a Greg Williams (not Greg Fox) reproduction and is of excellent quality, I was told that these were made in the mid 80's, this one belonged to LJ Warren. The FBI case comes in a custom heavy cardboard box to protect it from damage during transportation and has Velcro straps to keep it closed. The XX mags, three are Auto Ordnance and one is W.P.S. all are in great shape. You also get a 1928 complete parts kit with knurled actuator, chrome bolt act this is a nice parts kit. One brass cleaning rod. I will pay the first transfer and all shipping to you and your dealer. I have plenty of other pictures of the case, drum, mags , parts kit. This gun is on a form 4 in KY. $16.3K. When I receive payment, I will send everything to you except the receiver. Thanks Greg. 606-845-0098 home, 606-845-0098 cell 606-876-5551 work.

 

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http://www.sturmgewehr.com/webBBS/nfa4sale....cgi?read=65628

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If I were you, I'd sell off the parts set, Kahr drum and FBI case. Get what you can for these. I think you'll get some interest if you get the price down in the 13K to 14.5k range.

The more you ask, the more patient you need to be.

My .02

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I paid $9500 a month ago,for a new condition, unmolested West Hurley 1928, that didn't run. So , I bought a Coles Dist. 1928A1 parts kit and if you allow $1500 for PK to go through it I'll have around 12K in it. I would be interested in purchasing the case! !
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RonO,

 

I think your post is a bucket of cold water in the face of the momentary frenzy of WH high prices over the last several months. I think this started when a poster said he got $17K for his C&R WH M1. That seemed to signal a let the good times roll feeling for WH owners. But when WH's had a hard time getting $16K, $15K, or $14K they withdrew back to their true $11K-$!3K level.

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QUOTE (Arthur Fliegenheimer @ Oct 26 2005, 12:54 PM)
RonO,

I think your post is a bucket of cold water in the face of the momentary frenzy of WH high prices over the last several months. I think this started when a poster said he got $17K for his C&R WH M1. That seemed to signal a let the good times roll feeling for WH owners. But when WH's had a hard time getting $16K, $15K, or $14K they withdrew back to their true $11K-$!3K level.

Ya whatever. I sold a WH '28 w/accessories for 15k Last week. Took three days to sell.

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QUOTE
Ya whatever. I sold a WH '28 w/accessories for 15k Last week. Took three days to sell.
45wheelgun

 

Considering the number of WH's languishing on the internet boards for that type of money, you must have offered $2K worth of L drums, mags, and whatever else constitutes accessories to snag that buyer, or you found yourself a total lay down.

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What is your gun worth? I just sold a NIB WH for slighly less than 16K. Funds have been received and item shipped. Purchased a 28WH at KC and sold it via one phone call within minutes for slightly less than 15k. Sale did not include any drums or mags. I am having to replace a weapon (and then sue a moron in Tx) that I paid and never received a 28 WH gun from. I tried to purchase a of 28WH to replace this weapon and the ones I attempted to purchase were priced at 15k--and SOLD when I attempted to try and negotiate a deal. Bottom line is this: Thompsons are very popular machineguns and will always be in high demand. Can you get 15k for your weapon? I would bet yes.

 

John Thedford

NFA SALES

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Mr. Thetford,

 

Welcome to the Board and thank you for the current pricing information.

 

I hope you find this Forum interesting and informative as well as occasionally entagled in controversy.

 

While factual statements are always enjoyed, there's nothing so entertaining as passionate opinons, especially those cloaked as fact.

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John,

If you bought a WH1928 and then turned it around for just under $15K, you surely purchased it for somewhere around $11K-$13K. So how can you say that WH"s are really worth $15K? A dealer is not going to pay $15K for a WH.

 

If RonO can find WH's for way under $15K and you can too, then those who pay the $15K figure are paying for the dealer's mark up. Autoweapons.com has a WH1928 for $16,900. It has been there for a year. But at least they are now referring to the WH's as replica Thompson's.

 

There are probably more WH's in private party hands, read not dealers, then Cot/Savage/AO TSMG"S. This is the result of private parties buying them directly from WH from 1975 to 1986. Since condition is not a priority when it comes to the shooter WH's, the prices do not fluctuate for any valid reason from WH to WH.

 

If the high prices of Colt/Savage/AO TSMG's have made the WH a more attractive alternative, the relative high prices of a WH will turn once interested buyers back to the Colt-Savage/AO or a different mg/smg altogether.

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John,

 

Any buyer who lays down for a dealer's $15K+ price tage for what is essentially a WH full auto sear does indeed mystify me. For a couple grand more than $16.3K one could buy a WWII Savage/AO M1/M1A1.

 

I don't blame those who sell these WH's for whatever they can get, but at these prices one could buy an original Grease Gun, M-16, H&K etc.

 

If you believe these prices to be average, how will you find WH's for under $16K to resell to some mark for $18K?

 

I know that your 10 emails to me requesting information on TSMG's were not about WH's. But the fact that your confidence in sellers realizing high prices for their WH's is perhaps proved with these recent reports of sales, the WH as a replica TSMG has not changed.

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Arthur: Whether you wish to acknowledge it the forces of supply and demand in the marketplace dictate prices. I have no idea if you have even been in the NFA business. If so--and you regarded your customers as "marks"--I would believe they eventually discovered your inner attitude and took their business elsewhere. My customers are not "marks"--they are my friends, my customers, and I take their business seriously. There are plently of dealers and for customers that choose to do business with me I am greatfull. I currently have five inbound WH Thompsons--and a list of buyers waiting to be offered these weapons. I am sure if they could easily afford a Colt--they would prefer that. Do I see 20k WH guns in the future? I do not know. However--I recall seeing 8k HK sears--and thinking "NO WAY"! Have you ever seen someone so sure of themselves that they call someone else a liar--only have to eat those words? Read other posts in this thread where someone alluded I was posting BS concerning realized prices. I guess they wish to call the original poster full of BS as well? You or they should feel free to continue your posts. Some of the posts are more entertaining than the comics.
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QUOTE (John Thedford @ Oct 28 2005, 05:51 PM)
Arthur: Whether you wish to acknowledge it the forces of supply and demand in the marketplace dictate prices. I have no idea if you have even been in the NFA business. If so--and you regarded your customers as "marks"--I would believe they eventually discovered your inner attitude and took their business elsewhere. My customers are not "marks"--they are my friends, my customers, and I take their business seriously. There are plently of dealers and for customers that choose to do business with me I am greatfull. I currently have five inbound WH Thompsons--and a list of buyers waiting to be offered these weapons. I am sure if they could easily afford a Colt--they would prefer that. Do I see 20k WH guns in the future? I do not know. However--I recall seeing 8k HK sears--and thinking "NO WAY"!  Have you ever seen someone so sure of themselves that they call someone else a liar--only have to eat those words? Read other posts in this thread where someone alluded I was posting BS concerning realized prices. I guess they wish to call the original poster full of BS as well?  You or they should feel free to continue your posts. Some of the posts are more entertaining than the comics.

 

 

Come on John. I don't know how long you have been an NFA dealer, but I do know your knowledge on TSMG"s was soft only one year ago.

 

But as far as the "forces of supply and demand" go, if you have 5 inbound WH's, that surely indicates to me that you have an abundant supply from sources willing to sell way below $15K.

 

Do you mark up the resale of these WH"S for more than a grand for your "friends?" Why not just tell them who your contact is and they can buy it from them with you doing the transfer for a friendly fee?

 

Do you suppose that RonO bought his WH from a source like the one(s) from your inbound source(s)? He avoided the middleman and saved $5K.

 

Autoweapons.com advertises their WH TSMG's for $16,900 as replicas. Do you inform your customers that what they are about to spend their coin on is a replica?

 

Do you charge a $200 processing fee like BRMCII.

 

Where are the Ron Kovar dealers today?

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John,

 

I am more than ready to be enlightened. If it would not breech any code of ethics for an NFA dealer, could you elaborate on the following questions that you dismissed in my previous post as the hallucinations of a clueless observer of the NFA business.

 

1) Where do you come by these WH's whose owners do not want to sell for the going rate?

 

2) How much profit do you put on top of your cost per weapon as represented in a percentage or a straight fee?

 

3) Do you charge a processing fee?

 

4) Do you ever just provide a transfer where you are not dealing from stock and what would you charge for that service?

 

I'm sure any information provided would be of value to many board members who are not involved in the day to day workings of an NFA dealer.

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Arthur--you certainly deserve credit for giving many of us a good laugh:) I suggest you pose all of these questions to every NFA dealer you encounter for an accurate assessment of the NFA business. I am sure some will give you a straight answer if they can quit laughing long enough!

In the interest of "enlightening" some board members I shall address your questions:

Question 1>Where does a dealer come by Thompsons owners who do not wish to sell at the going rate? Answer: sometimes sellers are more motivated than other sellers. Turn enough stones--and you find a diamond. Many owners would not be willing to sell even at current market rates.

Question 2>How much profit do you put on top as represented as a percentage or straight fee? Answer: It varies on a deal to deal basis.

Question 3>Do I charge a processing fee? Answer: No--I never have. Should I?

Question 4>Do I ever provide a transfer srvice and what is the charge for that service. Answer: Yes--I provide transfer services. The charge varies from $50 on up.

Arthur--the fact is you make it sound like dealers have some secret resource for ordering or buying NFA weapons at below market prices. Were that the case it would be a much easier business. Why are there dozens of ads in Shotgun News and Gunlist advertising "we buy machineguns"? Some educated readers might suggest the law of supply and demand. This little law of economics might go over others heads:) Study this well known law and you might arrive at a reasonable conclusion as to the current prices of WH Thompsons! In closing for the night I must tell you thanks for the laugh Arthur--this has been VERY entertaining:) BTW--if you find some "overpriced" 28 Hurley guns at 12k--toss them my way and I will pay you a finders fee.

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John said it all with the three words, "supply and demand." There is no telling how high the prices will go in the future...or how fast. John, I assume you are in business to make money - if not, you have one expensive hobby. I completely understand how someone who bought a West Hurley Thompson (or any Class III firearm) years ago can sell to you hassle free and make a huge profit and not worry about leaving some money on the table. Now I would not do it because I enjoy the deal - but many (most?) people are not that way. One thing is for sure, if the 1986 ban is not set aside, the prices will continue to rise. Of course, if the law is changed West Hurley's could drop to 2K overnight. If imports were allowed, the WWII Thompsons could be in the 3K range. This would also affect the price of Colt's. How much would be interesting to see. Just food for thought.

 

For all you new board members - Arthur's comment of West Hurley Thompson's being "replica" Thompsons is just that, his opinion. Many on the board do not have any trouble following the history of Auto-Ordnance from Cleveland, Ohio to West Hurley, New York. Arthur takes great pains to share his opinion of West Hurley Thompson as often as possible. Perhaps, he may even believe what he posts by now. While Arthur is very knowledgeable and you can certainly learn from his posts, always remember to separate his opinions from fact.

 

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I am in business to make money. However--business is not "only about the money". People that think or run their business otherwise have lost sight and compassion. As far as NFA---what better business is there? You get to deal with historical firearms, meet many fine people, and sell a product that is unique. I have been a full time dealer for about three years but have had my SOT since 1994. I have a website and post on Sturmgewehr.com. Arthur has been an entertainment for me. I was glad to see the seller that started this thread post that he got his asking price. I posted earlier that I thought he would get his price--and he did. Facts are facts--and the naysayers can post their negative comments 24/7--but they will not affect the market. Hurley guns are indeed worth 15k. Sold one recently for almost 16k NIB--and will be askiing 16k for another NIB 28 inbound. In regards to other dealers asking 17k for similar weapons--they may be priced ahead of the market--but I believe eventually that price may be realized. Time will tell.
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QUOTE
Arthur takes great pains to share his opinion of West Hurley Thompson as often as possible. Perhaps, he may even believe what he posts by now.
TD

 

Now TD, you know as well as I do that Helmer, Cox, Herigstad and Doug Richardson all agree that the West Hurley version of the "Thompson" is a replica. Even Autoweapons.com now refers to the West Hurley as replicas in their internet adds. Why would an NFA dealer, whose prices are legendary, acknowledge the difference between a post 1944 "Thompson" and those that came before? I think it is a refreshing breath of honesty that is not always a hallmark in the NFA world.

 

I think this board has touched on the supply and demand theory with a frequency and painful obviousness only second to how many clicks does it take to wind an L drum for a 1928 TSMG.

 

Is the market value of a n NFA weapon set by a private party or a dealer? If RonO and Mike find TSMG's and list the price they paid for them are they the true value of the firearm or are these sales as reported by dealers the true value? One might ask who has the ulterior motive to keep prices artificially higher than what the NFA regs already account for.

 

John,

Thanks for indulging my babe in the woods perception of the NFA dealer's world. You managed to explain your business practices in a perfunctory and nebulous fashion as one would expect. Do you really get action on those "Will buy your unwanted machine guns for a fraction of their value" adds?

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Thanks John - interesting posts. I hate I did not stop by your booth at Knob Creek this fall. I will not make that mistake again.

 

Arthur,

No, I do not know all of that - but I know how to follow an organization from one place to another. And I certainly do not take my history lessons from Autoweapons.com (I can't believe you said that). Are you going to be at the SAR show this year?

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It's really been fun watching the sparring back and forth about prices of WH TSMGS. I took out my Class 3 in October 1971.

In 1974 I paid $275 each for (5) Colt TSMGs (with a partner who had gone in with me). We advertised them in SGNews at around $575 and sold (4) of them. I kept one, serial # 444 until Roger Cox pestered me enough to trade me out of it. My partner and I were patting ourselves on the back about what our good fortune at almost doubling our investment in the Colt guns.

 

Over the last 34 years I have sold a lot of Colt Tommys, quite a few WH's and a goodly numer of military 28s and M1's.

Over those 34 years of dealing in NFA, I've been convinced that everything is "relative." When I was selling Colts for $3000, I was getting $1850 for WH. When Colts started going for $8000, I was getting $4500 for U.S. Mil tsmg and $2800 for WH. You can run down the WH all you want, but there are many collectors who can't afford a Colt, don't want a military (they like the "gangster look" of the drum, blued finish, fins, etc.

 

Just about every Class 3 dealer got started with the 5-6 basic NFA weapons: M16, MAC10, S&W76, H&R Reising, Sten gun, etc. Then they gradually defined what their interest was and started collecting accordingly.

 

Just as the "spread" of values between each of the above basic guns remained constant, so it has with Colts, Militarys, and WH.

 

When I'm sitting on the front porch of the nursing home 20 years from now, reading my gun publications, I'll bet you that if Colt Tommys are selling for $55,000 to $85,000 then Military TSMGs will be selling for $40,000 to $60,000 and WH will be selling for $30,000 to $40,000.

 

If you think the Colts will be more like $100,000 to $125,000 in 20 years, then just adjust all the others accordingly.

 

If the 86 ban is ever overturned, then the above figures for WH will not hold valid because someone will be making a WH type tommy gun. But the Colts and Militarys will stay at the high end because there will never be any more of those mfg.

 

Another way of looking at the WH pricing:

 

Over the last 34 years of NFA dealing, I've had two types buyers/customers/prospects. One type paid whatever price I set on the guns (if I priced them fairly) the other type: they never bought anything! Why? Because they would tell me: "You want $2000 for a WH tsmg!@!?? They are only worth $1500. Then a year or so later they would contact me and say that whenever I got another WH in for $2000 or $2200 they would buy it. Well by that time, I would have one but it was priced at $3500 and they said: (you guessed it) "No way is worth that much!"

 

And for the guy who posted saying that you could get a grease gun or M16 for the price of WH, well what if I have absolutely no interest in a grease gun or an M16 but I want a blued, drum-toting, gangster looking gun to display and play with...?

 

Or..."I don't want a Chevy, I like Fords."

 

By the way, THERE IS NO WHOLESALE AND RETAIL IN NFA. If the individual collector finds a tommy gun owned by a purchaser of long ago, and he buys it directly for $12,000, that doesn't mean the wholesale is 12m. If I as a "dealer" bought it for $12,000 and resold it for $14,000 to another collector OR DEALER, I don't look at the transaction as a wholesale/retail transaction.

 

I look at it that if I found it first, I know there is someone who will buy it at more than I paid for it. Maybe I'm splitting hairs, but NFA is not like automotive sales where the "dealer" gets it wholesale and the "individual" pays retail.

 

If the "collector" bypasses me and finds an individual willing to sell an NFA for a low price and the collector buys it, does that mean he became the dealer buying at wholesale? Or did he just get a good buy by being at the right place at the right time?

 

Looked at another way, does the purchaser of stock on the stock martket buy it at wholesale and sell at retail? Or does he buy it when he believes it is undervalued by the seller and he can resell it for a profit to a buyer who will pay more for it?

 

But it is really fun to watch an experienced person say no way will that ever bring that price, only to find out that it not only brought that price, it sold quickly and there are others in line waiting to pay that "same unreasonably high price."

 

When I was in the insurance business and was involved with having clients insure their articles for "market value," the definition we used for market value was: "That price that a willing buyer and a willing seller, at arms length, would pay or ask for a similar article." And I never looked at that as a "retail/wholesale" scenario.

 

I can't remember if I posted the story about the gun dealer I knew (who has since retired and moved to the Bahamas). I was in his shop when a customer brought a Winchester M12 sporting shotgun in to sell. My dealer friend said he'd give $200 for it. The seller said that the ABC gun shop in the next town said it was worth $400. My dealer friend asked why they didn't buy it. The man said the other gun dealer didn't need one of these right now. So my dealer friend said: "Let me take a closer look at it." He carefully examined the bore, the amount of blue finish, the condition of the wood furniture on it and then said: "I was wrong. I think it's worth $800.... and I don't need it either....."

 

So while you guys that think a WH is a replica thompson sit there and say "no way they are worth that much" John Thedford and the rest of us will be buying and selling, making some customer happy, making a little money on the transaction, and meeting a lot of interesting people.!!

 

My 2 c worth.

 

Bill Douglas

 

 

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Good post Bill Douglas. Nice to see you onboard.

 

John Thedford, don't mind AF, he is a deluxe colt whore of the first order. His sole purpose on this board is to promote colt TSMGs and make fun of everything else. I am amazed that people still listen to his shit. http://www.machinegunbooks.com/forums/invboard1_1_2/upload/html/emoticons/rolleyes.gif

 

There is no doubt that when measured on dollars paid for TSMGS, (I have done TWO studies on this board an posted the results) the the WH TSMGs sell for less than WW2 and colts. This however does not preclude the fact that all TMSGs are going up in value.

 

If Hurleys sell for 15 to 16K, then that would place the Savage/AO M1/M1A1 group in the upper teens and low twenties, the Savage/AO 28s in the mid to upper 20's and the colts in the mid to upper 30's. Whats the problem?

 

Besides AF claims to own a WH Tsmg anyway.

 

 

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