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Has Anybody Delt With Craig Jordan


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I'm sorry I forgot "Nobody likes the truth." and you are the truth.... I'll not make that mistake again... http://www.machinegunbooks.com/forums/invboard1_1_2/upload/html/emoticons/rolleyes.gif
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t-man is reading this subject maybe he can post it all..{if greg want's to waste his more important time.} he'd have more fun doing the reinacting thing..then posting on this subject i'm sure..

 

leave the serial number alone,it is there for a reason.so a manufacture know's what he made and how many,and to pay his tax.and so they can trace the bad guy's.when they get used in a wrong manner to trace....kinda simple i guess..from the flat earth society manual page 22 verse 14 chapter 9.wink over and out.

 

ron

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Ok Guys:

 

This may be a little long but, When Phil origanally posted his "that is illegal" post which I assume is based on hearsay and emotion. I asked him to cite the USC. Not hard to do. He didn't so I have done it for him here. You'll find the cite at the end of all this.

 

Phil stated;

 

"I agree with our members who suggest putting the brakes on this "moving" of manufacturer marks. It's not called "moving". It is "removing". That's illegal. Isn't it simple? I don't think ATF or the Department of Justice would, or should, agree that hiding new markings someplace else makes everything sweetness and roses again. The rules say you don't grind 'em off. They don't say you can grind them off if you then place new ones under the grip bar, in the slot, in characters .035" high or something."

 

Well, ya know what Phil was kinda right see USC 26 E 53 5861 (g), (h) & (i) which I have thoughtfully cut and paste below. then Phil tells us this;

 

"I have an original first run Pasadena Automag, where they only etched the factory name and model markings on the receiver with some chemical process. It wears off, and did. So I had an engraver DEEPLY engrave them back on, over the faint remnants of the old ones, and working from a photo. I feel better about that, and it's about as far as I would suggest anybody go, in messing with markings."

 

Phil If those markings wore off on your clothing while you were carrying the gun then you removed them! I guess the ATF is aware of this problem.

 

Well, I called the ATF firearms technology branch some years ago and they advised that their ruling was that the serial number must be maintained as it was required to be affixed in a manner which may not be readily removed. there is a ruling which covers this. The ATF also advised that that they had ruled only the serial number fell under this as it is the only identification which must be affixed in a manner which may not be readily removed. See USC 26 B 1 5842 (a) which I have thoughtfully cut and paste below. The ATF rulings are law. An unusual situation as they are the only law enforcement agency in the United States that is capable of making the laws that they enforce. The ATF rulings are published I do not have them in hand but, I'll get them for you if you would like Phil.

 

Never the less, the law does not prohibit moving the manufacture's marking It does however prohibit changing that marking. Lets see Auto Ordnance Company. Yep that is the maker and will remain the maker. There are some further rulings that also cover the place of manufacture being displayed on the firearm and I intend to comply with those rulings as well, only inside the magwell. Phil you yourself have done with your Automag exactly what I intend to do. Your new markings have moved from their original location weather you realize it or not. They may not have moved to a different surface of the receiver but they moved when they were reapplyed. Does this set you up for a felony indictment? I hardly think so. I understand that firearms law is a highly emotional issue for you. Before you say that is illegal I would recommend you read the statute that governs what ever you are referring to.

 

 

TITLE 26--INTERNAL REVENUE CODE

 

Subtitle E--Alcohol, Tobacco, and Certain Other Excise Taxes

 

CHAPTER 53--

 

Subchapter B--General Provisions and Exemptions

 

PART I--GENERAL PROVISIONS

 

Sec. 5842. Identification of firearms

 

 

(a) Identification of firearms other than destructive devices

 

Each manufacturer and importer and anyone making a firearm shall

identify each firearm, other than a destructive device, manufactured,

imported, or made by a serial number which may not be readily removed,

obliterated, or altered, the name of the manufacturer, importer, or

maker, and such other identification as the Secretary may by regulations

prescribe.

 

 

 

 

TITLE 26--INTERNAL REVENUE CODE

 

Subtitle E--Alcohol, Tobacco, and Certain Other Excise Taxes

 

CHAPTER 53--MACHINE GUNS, DESTRUCTIVE DEVICES, AND CERTAIN OTHER

FIREARMS

 

Subchapter C--Prohibited Acts

 

Sec. 5861. Prohibited acts

 

It shall be unlawful for any person--

 

(g) to obliterate, remove, change, or alter the serial number or

other identification of a firearm required by this chapter; or

(h) to receive or possess a firearm having the serial number or

other identification required by this chapter obliterated, removed,

changed, or altered; or

(i) to receive or possess a firearm which is not identified by a

serial number as required by this chapter; or

 

 

 

TITLE 26 > Subtitle E > CHAPTER 53 > Subchapter D > § 5871 Prev | Next

 

§ 5871. Penalties

 

 

Release date: 2005-08-31

 

Any person who violates or fails to comply with any provisions of this chapter shall, upon conviction, be fined not more than $10,000, or be imprisoned not more than ten years, or both.

 

 

 

TITLE 26 > Subtitle E > CHAPTER 53 > Subchapter D > § 5872 Prev | Next

 

§ 5872. Forfeitures

 

 

Release date: 2005-08-31

 

(a) Laws applicable

Any firearm involved in any violation of the provisions of this chapter shall be subject to seizure and forfeiture, and (except as provided in subsection {B}) all the provisions of internal revenue laws relating to searches, seizures, and forfeitures of unstamped articles are extended to and made to apply to the articles taxed under this chapter, and the persons to whom this chapter applies.

Edited by rhlowe
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Well quite a thread you got goin here Mr. Lowe..... http://www.machinegunbooks.com/forums/invboard1_1_2/upload/html/emoticons/tongue.gif In the bit since this started from what I can find it states just what markings have to be on the gun when "shipped" but the only obliteration verbage seems to be on the serial number. I've mailed a letter off to find out what I can do to my gun as it is a full auto semi and it would be nice to dump the semi-stuff. I'm still interested in seeing the man's work and what he can do......

 

Blaine

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Let me see if I have this straight. A West Hurley 28 or M1 is a replica of either a Savage or Auto Ordance 28 or M1, and a Savage or Auto Ordance 28 is a replica of the Colt 21, and a Colt 21 is a replica of Thompsons original design?

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QUOTE (rhlowe @ Dec 2 2005, 02:03 PM)
Ok Guys:

This may be a little long but, When Phil origanally posted his "that is illegal" post which I assume is based on hearsay and emotion. I asked him to cite the USC. Not hard to do. He didn't so I have done it for him here. You'll find the cite at the end of all this.

Phil stated;

"I agree with our members who suggest putting the brakes on this "moving" of manufacturer marks. It's not called "moving". It is "removing". That's illegal. Isn't it simple? I don't think ATF or the Department of Justice would, or should, agree that hiding new markings someplace else makes everything sweetness and roses again. The rules say you don't grind 'em off. They don't say you can grind them off if you then place new ones under the grip bar, in the slot, in characters .035" high or something."

Well, ya know what Phil was kinda right see USC 26 E 53 5861 (g), {h} & (i) which I have thoughtfully cut and paste below. then Phil tells us this;

"I have an original first run Pasadena Automag, where they only etched the factory name and model markings on the receiver with some chemical process. It wears off, and did. So I had an engraver DEEPLY engrave them back on, over the faint remnants of the old ones, and working from a photo. I feel better about that, and it's about as far as I would suggest anybody go, in messing with markings."

Phil If those markings wore off on your clothing while you were carrying the gun then you removed them! I guess the ATF is aware of this problem.

Well, I called the ATF firearms technology branch some years ago and they advised that their ruling was that the serial number must be maintained as it was required to be affixed in a manner which may not be readily removed. there is a ruling which covers this. The ATF also advised that that they had ruled only the serial number fell under this as it is the only identification which must be affixed in a manner which may not be readily removed. See USC 26 B 1 5842 (a) which I have thoughtfully cut and paste below. The ATF rulings are law. An unusual situation as they are the only law enforcement agency in the United States that is capable of making the laws that they enforce. The ATF rulings are published I do not have them in hand but, I'll get them for you if you would like Phil.

Never the less, the law does not prohibit moving the manufacture's marking It does however prohibit changing that marking. Lets see Auto Ordnance Company. Yep that is the maker and will remain the maker. There are some further rulings that also cover the place of manufacture being displayed on the firearm and I intend to comply with those rulings as well, only inside the magwell. Phil you yourself have done with your Automag exactly what I intend to do. Your new markings have moved from their original location weather you realize it or not. They may not have moved to a different surface of the receiver but they moved when they were reapplyed. Does this set you up for a felony indictment? I hardly think so. I understand that firearms law is a highly emotional issue for you. Before you say that is illegal I would recommend you read the statute that governs what ever you are referring to.


TITLE 26--INTERNAL REVENUE CODE

Subtitle E--Alcohol, Tobacco, and Certain Other Excise Taxes

CHAPTER 53--

Subchapter B--General Provisions and Exemptions

PART I--GENERAL PROVISIONS

Sec. 5842. Identification of firearms


(a) Identification of firearms other than destructive devices

Each manufacturer and importer and anyone making a firearm shall
identify each firearm, other than a destructive device, manufactured,
imported, or made by a serial number which may not be readily removed,
obliterated, or altered, the name of the manufacturer, importer, or
maker, and such other identification as the Secretary may by regulations
prescribe.




TITLE 26--INTERNAL REVENUE CODE

Subtitle E--Alcohol, Tobacco, and Certain Other Excise Taxes

CHAPTER 53--MACHINE GUNS, DESTRUCTIVE DEVICES, AND CERTAIN OTHER
FIREARMS

Subchapter C--Prohibited Acts

Sec. 5861. Prohibited acts

It shall be unlawful for any person--

(g) to obliterate, remove, change, or alter the serial number or
other identification of a firearm required by this chapter; or
(h) to receive or possess a firearm having the serial number or
other identification required by this chapter obliterated, removed,
changed, or altered; or
(i) to receive or possess a firearm which is not identified by a
serial number as required by this chapter; or



TITLE 26 > Subtitle E > CHAPTER 53 > Subchapter D > § 5871 Prev | Next

§ 5871. Penalties


Release date: 2005-08-31

Any person who violates or fails to comply with any provisions of this chapter shall, upon conviction, be fined not more than $10,000, or be imprisoned not more than ten years, or both.



TITLE 26 > Subtitle E > CHAPTER 53 > Subchapter D > § 5872 Prev | Next

§ 5872. Forfeitures


Release date: 2005-08-31

(a) Laws applicable
Any firearm involved in any violation of the provisions of this chapter shall be subject to seizure and forfeiture, and (except as provided in subsection (http://www.machinegunbooks.com/forums/invboard1_1_2/upload/html/emoticons/cool.gif) all the provisions of internal revenue laws relating to searches, seizures, and forfeitures of unstamped articles are extended to and made to apply to the articles taxed under this chapter, and the persons to whom this chapter applies.

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QUOTE (railroader @ Dec 2 2005, 07:24 PM)
Let me see if I have this straight. A West Hurley 28 or M1 is a replica of either a Savage or Auto Ordance 28 or M1, and a Savage or Auto Ordance 28 is a replica of the Colt 21, and a Colt 21 is a replica of Thompsons original design?
http://www.machinegunbooks.com/forums/invboard1_1_2/upload/html/emoticons/smile.gif

railroader,

 

The reason why WH's are replicas has been covered pretty thoroughly on this board. The WWII TSMG are not. It has to do with the time the original Auto Ordnance Corporation became defunct in 1944. For further evidence refer to any publication by Roger Cox, Doug Richardson, William J. Helmer and Gordon Herigstadt.

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Well Guys:

 

I guess this thread is about to run out of steam. I had a great time with Y'all and a couple of you actually answered my question. No negative comments on Craig Jordan.

 

Ron & Mark: thanks for the reference.

 

Big Daddy, Philasteen and all of Y'all: thanks for jumping on my band wagon.

 

PK: I figure worst case I'll lose .010 of .120 wall on the receiver. I'll take the risk. If I were in your position I probably wouldn't do this for a customer. If everything goes to s**t I'll be the one with a black eye from the back end of the receiver. There is a stress riser at the back end of the frame rails a 1/16 end mill will fix that?

 

Phil: You may be right. I'll be talking to Craig Jordan about what we have discussed here. I'm comfortable with this but, I can't go to the federal pen I don't play golf or tennis.

 

Arthur Arthur Arthur: You know when I worked narcotics they made me go to a topless bar. Have you ever been to one? Why were you looking at those things?!!!!!!!!!! You know they are fake fraudulent a misrepresentation of the real woman. I like the 21a. Without those markings it would look like the above mentioned fake things without an areola. I do however understand your position. If I had what I assume (dangerous) you have I'd probably be a little upset with this to. When I'm finished with this project if we are ever at the same place together with our guns all you will hear is a loud thud as I throw my project gun on the ground so that I can get a close look at what you have.

 

T-man hasn't commented I understand that from a police officers point of view.

 

Y'all are a great bunch of guys. Heck Frank didn't have to delete any posts the moderators on most boards have to do that a lot.

 

I'll post some photos of this thing when I am through. Don't get in a hurry I'm not.

 

Thanks,

Richard

Edited by rhlowe
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Phil:

 

I just found it interesting that you made the statement "That's Illegal" and then were unable to provide a cite of the Law. By the letter of the law you are right. I stated that I had a telephone conversation with the ATF firearms technology branch some years ago and advised what there response was, ATF ruling. Possibly you missed that portion of my post. There sure are a bunch of guys that provide engraving services. I don't think this would be going on if it were illegal. You should know that your Automag is not a firearm according to title 26 USC, but since you bring it up you say "I had them engraved much, much deeper, exactly on top of what remained, and in precisely the same size and configuration as what was worn off...whether or not it was "required" by anybody else; I required it". It would have been impossible for your engraver to engrave these markings in exactly the same location if he was really good they may have moved as little as .001 but I would suspect that they moved much more than that no matter how bad you wanted them in the same location. It doesn't matter because a pistol is not a firearm according to title 26 USC. Title 26 USC is what we are concerned with here it governs machineguns If you were the legal expert that you would have liked for me to believed that you were when you originally posted your negative comments you would know this. It appears that you are giving legal advice to someone who evidently understands the law much better than you do. Lets just take the emotion portion out of what I said. I apologize for that comment your legal knowledge is based on hearsay. Have you read any portion of title 26 USC other than what I have posted here for you? You also made comments about Italian single actions with colt markings again not a title 26 firearm, but by simply putting a reproduction first generation SAA barrel in most Italian single action's it will very closely approximate an original colt though the serial number wont work I have seen this done often and there are several engravers that will remark your Italian barrel still not title 26. Now title 26 weapons I have an UZI done by Broadhead Armory during the ban rush it has no markings only a serial number It has been inspected by ATF as it was purchased from Stemple. The ATF while investigating Stemple examined the gun and not a word was said. They evidently wanted stemple and if they could have made a case based on this I believe they would have. I am basing my knowledge of this situation on hearsay (telephone conversation with ATF) but I'm comfortable with having the gun remarked. You believe that remarking this gun is Illegal, Immoral and unconstitutional and I do not. There is no point in us discussing this further. http://www.machinegunbooks.com/forums/invboard1_1_2/upload/html/emoticons/banghead.gif

 

Thanks,

Richard

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QUOTE (rhlowe @ Dec 1 2005, 07:38 AM)
I,m about to send a WH 28 off to Craig Jordan, Tiffany Arms for engraving and a barrel. Has anybody delt with him?

Welcome to the board Richard. A problem that occurs here is you ask a simple question (as is quoted) and it becomes a ruckus. Craig Jordon has been in this business for years and the guns I've seen from Tiffany Arms are first class in fit, finish and function.

I also must say that there is a lot of info here and a good group of members Except ARTY http://www.machinegunbooks.com/forums/invboard1_1_2/upload/html/emoticons/laugh.gif MR COLT HISELF.

It's your gun you are working with a reputable manufacturer, have fun.

I guess if I took the Dodge markings off of my truck and replaced them with ford someone would have a tizzy. But the title (read form 4 ) is the final say. Once again welcome

BILL OUT

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  • 1 month later...

 

 

 

Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives

Office of Public and Governmental Affairs

650 Massachusetts Avenue, NW.

Room 8290

Washington, DC 20226

 

 

To Whom It May Concern:,

 

I have questions as to the legality of remarking the receiver of a firearm. Specifically I bought a registered firing pin allowing me to create a class III firearm in a semi-auto frame. The frame has not been altered in any form just the firing pin that is in it. I would like to remove some of the script on the semi-auto frame for esthetic reasons. I will not in any way be altering the serial number with this process. Once again the firing pin is the registered part not the receiver and there will be no alteration of the serial number in any way.

 

Thank you in advance for your help,

 

 

 

Blaine R Clark

 

 

 

Some people, name withheld, will still argue coming from me and all but here is my response from ATF concerning remarking of a firearm.....

 

 

 

http://mail.roadfly.com/z3bigdaddy/atf%20letter2.jpg

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rhlowe, with respect, I don't know how good your metal prep is, but I'll personally guarantee that PK's is better.

Let him do what you need, and follow his advice. He is The Master.

I sent him my WH M1 to be turned into an emulation of a WWII M1 TSMG, and it is awesome indeed, with a perfect blued finish and all of the original poor quality WH machineing completed and perfect. I posted an extensive series of photos of this gun on this site.

Regardless how it's marked, your WH '28 can never be a Colt. It has value in its own right, which may well be ruined by what you propose. Original TSMGs were never pantograph marked.

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  • 2 weeks later...

And now let's hear from the guy this is all about.

 

Let me explain my conversation with Mr. Lowe as I remember it.

 

First, I told Mr. Lowe that we could not "remove" his West Hurley address and/or serial number. That what I could do was "move" it to a different location (magazine well) where it would be readily accessable to ATF inspection. NOT ILLEGAL! Done BEFORE originals markings are removed.

 

Part of my business is reproduction A4's,A6's and 1917's. When the guns come in with some goofy manufacturer's logo where the Saginaw or Westinghouse address should be ... I engrave their logo on the bottom edge of the receiver, weld up the address on the rear of the gun and commence to engrave the appropriate logo and proof marks. (The "current" serial number of the gun is placed in the appropriate spot in the new address. If the customer wants, his intials are used as U.S. INSP.)

 

 

If you have ever seen the 1928 Colt watercooled MG's that Collector's Corner sold years ago ... I designed and engraved all that logo on the receiver. Mike Brown's original address would have been on the inside of the gun after it was built. To comply with ATF regulations his Group Industries address was engraved along the bottom edge. ATF liked the idea as they didn't think taking the gun apart to check the serial number and manufacturer address would be fun. (It actually is not technically correct to have it on the inside of the receiver.)

 

This did not make the gun an "original" Colt nor was there any intent on my part to deceive anyone into thinking that so! And I have never heard any feedback that Bob was doing so either. The markings were done to give the gun an "aire" of originality.

 

This is all that I would be doing for Mr. Lowe. His serial number would not change nor would the paperwork ... still a West Hurley gun and would give his gun an "aire" of originality.

 

As for Mr. Lowe claiming in this thread that he has already removed all the markings from said receiver ... I had explained to him when he called that I would not accept a sanitized hunk of metal into my shop. (I believe he wanted to do this to save $.)

This sanitized piece could be anything but the original West Hurley and I am not going to jail for anybody!! I have too much legal work to do than to get involved with unknowns!!

 

I run, and always have, a straight up legal business. I've been doing this for 26 six years now and those of you who only know how to pull a trigger ... should keep your digits off the keyboard. Everyone knows what is said about arguing with an I.D.10 T. As the old saying goes - "I have forgotten more than most of you know!!!"

 

Great minds discuss ideas; average minds discuss events, small minds discuss people. This about covers it ... where do "you" fit in this thread?

 

Ron - As far as you go ... you were a pain in the arse to deal with back in the day and the "fax" thing was just the icing on the cake. No hard feelings about it but if you're waiting for an apology from me because you were a dick ... sorry it ain't comin'.

 

Lionheart - enjoyed the popcorn thingy ... this was entertaining, wasn't it?

 

 

 

 

 

 

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QUOTE (PhilOhio @ Jan 28 2006, 09:14 AM)

Then ATF said the request was not clear to them, and they needed more info, to be able to knowexactly what they would be "O.K.ing"

When things are fuzzy, this is exactly the right way to do it. Not some other way.

Nothing is fuzzy in the least in paragraph two of that letter. And yes they did not give a specific answer to "my" particular project but I don't think there is any need for further clarification or permission. I'm not planning on doing anything that is not plainly and "clearly" addressed in paragraph two. I wanted an answer for the general question and I recieved it. It looks pretty damn black and white to me but if you want to read into something to get another shade then have at it..... but for me I'm full steam ahead on the very final touches to the SFAB gun.....

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QUOTE (calibre @ Jan 28 2006, 12:52 AM)

Great minds discuss ideas; average minds discuss events, small minds discuss people. This about covers it ... where do "you" fit in this thread?

Ron - As far as you go ... you were a pain in the arse to deal with back in the day and the "fax" thing was just the icing on the cake. No hard feelings about it but if you're waiting for an apology from me because you were a dick ... sorry it ain't comin'.

  WOW craig you remembered however i never called you a dick...the name is ron, like you like to be called craig right??it was a freakin joke get it!! get it...!!and i didn't even get a piece of the cake. was it chocolate or white??wink!! life's way too short for problem's...and i gave you a good review read the post.....your still the cat's pajama's....t.c.ron

peace out!!

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Paragraph two of the ATF letter is crystal clear as to what an individual may do regarding manufacturers markings. ATF, Tech Branch simply declined to make a ruling on this specific firearm. That's the way I read the letter. I'm not sure whether or not you'd consider me a "prudent person," Phil; but I am a lawyer. http://www.machinegunbooks.com/forums/invboard1_1_2/upload/html/emoticons/wink.gif

 

Incidentally, the statement, "an individual may not re-mark or change a serial number in any way" is interesting considering that it is not uncommon to move serial numbers around on a firearm without any alteration of the number the itself.

 

Sam

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OK So I gather from your postings the bottom line is, I asked the right people but they gave the wrong answer or a non-defining answer at best? I've seen Mr. Sterling’s name on many documents so I don't believe he is new to the game.... Now I will concede that markings other than the serial number are required by law of the manufacturer but my letter did not address that. I do know that if you ask the same question enough times of the ATF eventually the answer "will" be no and then the letter "does" become law... The Oly receiver letter being a good example.... So as far as I'm concerned this letter is defining as to my project....
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