Replica

[rhlowe]

Arthur:

 

You might be right (dang I can't believe I said that). Would it be OK with you if I redid the West Hurley to approximate a Savage commercial 28 and left the West Hurley Markings.

 

Thanks'

Richard

[Arthur Fliegenheimer]

QUOTE (rhlowe @ Dec 4 2005, 04:08 PM)

Arthur: You might be right (dang I can't believe I said that). Would it be OK with you if I redid the West Hurley to approximate a Savage commercial 28 and left the West Hurley Markings. Thanks' Richard

Absotively!

[TD.]

I thought we went over this. Let me recap – The sale is documented by Helmer. Given the amount of money involved between two business entities is why I know a contract for sale was drafted and executed prior to payment. That is how incorporated businesses operate when making a business deal involving that much money – shareholder responsibilities and all. According to Helmer, Maguire Industries did the following when it reorganized: “The special machinery, tools, blueprints, leftover parts, records, and everything else pertaining to the Tommygun went into crates and then into storage.” Everything sat dormant until four years later when Kilgore came into the picture. Kilgore “had business contacts in Egypt that felt certain the equipment and drawings for making Thompsons could be resold to the Egyptian government at a handsome profit.” Obviously, Kilgore was interested in obtaining the manufacturing rights of the Thompson so it could sell these rights and all related equipment, blueprints, drawings, etc. to the Egyptian government. It is well known that George Numrich found many of the original prototype Thompsons, the Blish pistol and even the original contract between Auto-Ordnance Corporation, New York, New York and Colt in these crates. As stated by George Numrich and by Helmer, Numrich bought it all – and owned it all. Could you please refer me to this document that you use as documentation that stipulates incontrovertibly that Maguire sold Kilgore all names, trademarks and patents? Where did you find it? Helmer would probably be very grateful since he never saw it either and could only determine that Maguire sold crates. In fact, as far as the $385,000 sale figure, Helmer can only go so far as to say it was the "reported" price.

 

Helmer also says that Numrich picked up only the "crated" assets of Auto Ordnance. Unless Maguire/Kilgore/Willis slipped into those crates legal papers entitling the bearer of the crates rights to Thompson names, patents, and logos of "The Auto Ordnance Corporation Of New York, U.S.A." then there is a huge leap in faith that Trast ever had the legal right to use the full "Auto Ordnance Corporation" name with his city tacked on the end anymore than any other manufacturer of a "Thompson" type of firearm that wanted to place their own town or city as the suffix.

 

This is exactly the point that Doug Richardson makes with such authority and logic.

 

 

 

 

The author of the extra chapter was George C. Nonte, Jr. And your point? Several things on this paragraph leap off the page with inaccuracies. Helmer's book was reprinted with the additional information contained in a chapter 11 entitled "Thompson, Trast and Today" by George C. Norton Jr.

 

I can go with your name – not a problem. In March 1944, the Auto-Ordnance Corporation under Russell Maguire was re-organized and a new parent company emerged named Maguire Industries, Inc. All assets pertaining to the Thompson Submachine gun became a division of the parent company; this division was titled the Ordnance Division of Maguire Industries. The assets of this division were placed in storage and sat dormant for the next few years. In 1949, Kilgore Manufacturing, Westerville, Ohio, paid $385,00 to McGuire Industries for all the remaining assets of what now had become the Ordnance Division of Maguire Industries. Kilgore had the intention to resale the now former Ordnance Division to the Egyptian government because officials at Kilgore thought the Egyptian government wanted to manufacture the Thompson Submachine gun. This deal was done with future manufacturing as the stated pretext.

 

This is where you have to make your decision about the continuing lineage of the Thompson Submachine Gun. I submit that even today $385,000 is a lot of money; imagine what it represented in 1949. I think is ridiculous to think Kilgore paid that type of money for a few crates of parts and old machinery? Given the money involved, I submit the legal department of one of these parties drafted a contract of sale. I expect it was a very simple contract assigning all rights to the Thompson Submachine Gun from McGuire Industries to Kilgore Manufacturing. To take it one step further and again given the amount of money involved, I am sure Kilgore would have expected the Egyptian government to have performed some type of due diligence prior to making any future deal so clear title and rights would have been important issue to Kilgore. In addition, I have never heard anywhere that McGuire Industries retained any rights to the Thompson Submachine Gun or ever claimed any future rights to the Thompson Submachine Gun. If you can make this link between Maguire Industries and Kilgore Manufacturing, the rest of the story is very easy to follow. I like your use of the term entity. You almost have it. George Numrich and Ira Trast formed the entity Auto-Ordnance Corporation, West Hurley, New York with the assets of the Ordnance Division of Maguire Industries George Numrich had purchased in 1951. Since the assets included everything related to the Thompson that Maguire Industries owned, George was free to do what he wanted with these assets from a business standpoint – and he did. There is no restriction on what type or name of the entity George or Ira could create. What is important is the link between what John Thompson created in Cleveland can be traced all the way to West Hurley, New York. Given the original purchase price, the fact the seller (Maguire Industries) has never claimed any ownership rights in what was sold in 1949 and George Numrich’s uncontroverted statements, I think the rights issue is well settled. Maguire did not sell the "Auto Ordnance Division of Maguire Industries" to anyone. That is for sure. "Maguire Industries Incorporated" was still attempting to make a go at it into the 1960's. The only thing that Maguire could possibly sell to Willis, since "Auto Ordnance Corporation of New York, U.S.A." was still maintained by the Maguire family, was an entity called "ORDNANCE DIVISION."

If we agree that anything other than the sale of crates ever transpired between Maguire and Kligore, then that anything could only be the name of 'ORDNANCE DIVISION" that contrary to its name, never in it's five year existence, before supposedly being sold to Kilgore, ever manufactured any ordnance or any TSMG's.

 

Now in 1975, Trast resurrects "ORDNANCE DIVISION" from it's 1944 slumber and waves a magic wand over it and it becomes the very familiar sounding "Auto Ordnance Corporation" (that was then, and still is, owned by the Maguire family) with the "West Hurley" now stigmatized identification tag stamped on the end.

 

You really need to stop playing lawyer because your statement is absolutely false. If there was any truth to this and Maguire Industries (or whatever they have now become) had retained any rights to the Thompson, I am sure they would have sued George Numrich and Ira Trast a long time ago. Arthur, simply stated, Russell Maguire made his money off his investment with the Thompson Submachine Gun. Russell was finished with the Tommygun and happily sold everything to move onto new frontiers – end of story. If we agreed that Maguire sold Kilgore anything aside from crates, "ORDNANCE DIVISION" is the only possible legal name that Trast could use on his receivers.

 

Again, I think you are confusing lineage with craftsmanship. No one has ever suggested the WWII or West Hurley Thompsons were made to the same standards as the Colt Thompson. However, craftsmanship has nothing to do with lineage. Yes, maybe to some it is a shame that General Thompson’s name and dream ended up with George Numrich and later Ira Trast and is now at Kahr Arms, but that is what happened. I am sure Kahr Arms did some due diligence before buying the Auto-Ordnance Corporation, West Hurly, New York. Doug Richardson’s supposed opinion notwithstanding, obviously, this lineage or chain of succession is worth something.

 

[LIONHART]

http://www.machinegunbooks.com/forums/invboard1_1_2/upload/html/emoticons/popcorn.gif

[TD.]

To everyone that has been reading Arthur and my bantering on the history of the Thompson Submachine Gun, please note that I am only addressing the issue of lineage or chain of succession. Simply stated, I believe you can easily trace the history of the Thompson Submachine Gun from Cleveland, Ohio to Numrich Arms Corporation and beyond. What this means to me is any Thompsons manufactured in this chain of succession can be directly linked to the original company and dream of John T. Thompson. Of course, some Thompsons have been manufactured that have no link to this chain of succession. The Pearl Thompsons, Doug Richardson receivers, foreign government produced Thompsons and even Dan Block’s beautiful Post Sample Thompson would be included in this group. The fact that these Thompsons are not directly related to the lineage of the Thompson Submachine Gun as started by General Thompson, hijacked by Russell Maguire and later purchased by George Numrich does not mean the Thompsons are not Thompson Submachine Guns. To the contrary, they are all Thompsons (maybe even replica’s http://www.machinegunbooks.com/forums/invboard1_1_2/upload/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif) ; but they are not connected to the documented succession of General Thompson’s original business. Of course, as Mike Hammer stated so aptly, …..“I guess if you are standing in front of me and my F.A. W.H. with my "C" drum and I decided to press the trigger and cut you in half with it in about 8 seconds, do you think people are going to say..."

 

Please do not hesitate to join in. Everyone learns when more participate. Thanks,

[Arthur Fliegenheimer]

QUOTE

According to Helmer, Maguire Industries did the following when it reorganized: “The special machinery, tools, blueprints, leftover parts, records, and everything else pertaining to the Tommygun went into crates and then into storage.â€

TD

 

See if you can refrain from cut and pasting your previous posts to address these points.

 

1) The only company name that Maguire could possibly sell by 1949 to Kilgore, along with the Thompson PHYSICAL crated assets, was "Ordnance Division," not "Auto Ordnance Corporation."

 

Helmer inexplicably continues to use the "Auto-Ordnance Corporation" name on page 205 even after he has already explained on page 203 that that name no longer existed for it was replaced by "Ordnance Division." No doubt a glitch in editing.

 

It wasn't the "Auto-Ordnance Corporation" that was "sealed in wooden boxes taking up warehouse space," as Helmer mistakenly references, but rather the "Ordnance Division" that "remained a valueless paper corporation," for five years until Kilgore was hoodwinked by Maguire to pay him the "reported" $365,000 for unknown items in crates.

 

This point is critical since the Maguire family has retained the "Auto -Ordnance Corporation" name. It is impossible for you to acknowledge this fact since it is the foundation for your continued attempts to link Numrich/Trast's "AOC" of 1975 back to Maguire' AOC of February, 1944.

 

2) The crates of course had machinery, gages, blueprints, parts, records, and complete smg's & prototypes that, Helmer notes, Numrich was 'SURPRISED TO DISCOVER." Ole George didn't even know what were in the crates so why would it also be a "surprise for him to discover" that Maguire never sold anything but the tangible assets of the Thompson firearm to Kilgore in the first place.

 

You keep crediting Kilgore with more business acumen then the situation warrants. It doesn't matter that he thought he was buying "the manufacturing rights" to the Thompson. He also believed he had a deal with the Egyptians for a bunch of TSMG's.

 

There was no deal. Kilgore never put the "manufacturing rights" to the test since he never manufactured any TSMG's and neither did the next purchaser, Willis, who also never looked inside the crates Kilgore sold to him.

 

Have you ever heard of any single business deal conducted by common sense entrepreneurs, never mind THREE separate deals, where the buyers of the physical property never took an accounting of what they were actually buying? So why be shocked to discover that they were also oblivious to the contents of the written materials such as copywriters and patents?

 

 

3) Again, show me where Helmer ever says he personally viewed the contents of this sale's agreement? Are you saying that you have seen it? If Helmer actually viewed this document then he would never use the term "reportedly" to describe the $365,000 sales figure. He would have seen that figure for himself disclosed in the document if he had access to it.

 

We do not know what ulterior motives Maguire may have had regarding the copyrighted names after selling the crates. He died before anyone ever attempted to make a TSMG in the U.S.A. using the Thompson name, the business name Auto-Ordnance Corporation, the bullet logo, or the patents. Knowing Maguire's previous history for underhandedness, the idea of him pouncing on Numrich with a law suit would appear to be keeping in character for Maguire.

 

By the way, "the Pearl Thompsons, Doug Richardson receivers, foreign government produced Thompsons and even Dan Block’s beautiful Post Sample Thompson" share exactly the same non-existent lineage to the pre March 1944 Auto-Ordnance Corporation as that of the West Hurley. But they are indeed all replicas.

 

D.R. could have turned out "Thompson's" with his Malibu, CA address stamped on them back in 1975 and they wouldn't have any more lineage than Numrich/Trast's West Hurley, New York versions.

[colt21a]

i guess whomever owned kilgore.must have been like some collector/ dealer's today.they had mo-money then brain's..just cut a check for $365,000.00 or whatever and bought it and said so what!! let it sit.."what did we buy again?"

 

however the real truth....they figured we spend the money and jam the mummy people!!

 

and get it all back and more..let them deal with the rusty part's and old dusty crate's..and if anything go's bad..they can admit.WE NEVER LOOKED AT THE STUFF.WHO ME!

 

kinda like how some work today...build me a srike send me the money..and i will get around to it.

 

and if a gov.contract pull's me out of it fine.

 

 

THE GENERAL TODAY WOULD SAY RUBBISH TO IT ALL..he supposed died with the statement>.it should never have happened.WHAT SHOULD NEVER?

 

maybe a reporter was at the death bed.and not just what written on a manual from 1921..yep

 

i never followed the lineage on colt:it just say's all i want to know,manufactured by COLT:not branched out to remington ,lyman, and blue done by herb in stall 12.and test fired by irvine.and boxed up by kathy.and shipped by vito.

 

yep

 

take care,ron

[TD.]

Ron... http://www.machinegunbooks.com/forums/invboard1_1_2/upload/html/emoticons/hail.gif

[TD.]

The truth is the truth. I don’t have to say it many different ways to make it more truthful. See if you can refrain from cut and pasting your previous posts to address these points.

 

Maguire did not sell Kilgore a company; Maguire sold Kilgore all the assets pertaining to the Thompson Submachine Gun – all assets. All of these assets were part of the Ordnance Division of Maguire Industries. 1) The only company name that Maguire could possibly sell by 1949 to Kilgore, along with the Thompson PHYSICAL crated assets, was "Ordnance Division," not "Auto Ordnance Corporation."

 

Agree - Helmer inexplicably continues to use the "Auto-Ordnance Corporation" name on page 205 even after he has already explained on page 203 that that name no longer existed for it was replaced by "Ordnance Division." No doubt a glitch in editing.

 

I have not seen any information to indicate Kilgore was hoodwinked by Maguire Industries. The purchase price was $385,000. It wasn't the "Auto-Ordnance Corporation" that was "sealed in wooden boxes taking up warehouse space," as Helmer mistakenly references, but rather the "Ordnance Division" that "remained a valueless paper corporation," for five years until Kilgore was hoodwinked by Maguire to pay him the "reported" $365,000 for unknown items in crates.

 

When the Auto-Ordnance Corporation re-organized in March 1944, the Auto-Ordnance Corporation name was discarded when the new name, Maguire Industries was chosen. It makes no difference if Maguire Industries kept the name Auto-Ordnance Corporation, New York, New York as an active registered corporation in the State of New York. The link or line of succession from Cleveland to West Hurley is complete – see above – Maguire Industries sold everything Thompson related to Kilgore in 1949. The business names mean little – follow the Thompson assets, the assets Maguire Industries sold. Maguire Industries or the Maguire Family has no interest in the Thompson Submachine Gun. This point is critical since the Maguire family has retained the "Auto -Ordnance Corporation" name. It is impossible for you to acknowledge this fact since it is the foundation for your continued attempts to link Numrich/Trast's "AOC" of 1975 back to Maguire' AOC of February 1944.

 

George Numrich was in the business of buying defunct firearm businesses and appeared to be very good at it. He has been quoted as saying he owns all the rights and no one has ever brought an action against him that I know of contesting this fact. In addition, he must have owned something because I understand Kahr Arms is not in the habit of paying good money for something that does not exist. Agree that some of the objects found in the crates even surprised George i.e., complete Thompsons, Blish pistol, original contract between Auto-Ordnance Corporation, New York, NY and Colt, etc. My guess is George did pretty well on this deal, especially after selling 100 Thompsons to the Ruler of Kuwait. (2) The crates of course had machinery, gages, blueprints, parts, records, and complete smg's & prototypes that, Helmer notes, Numrich was 'SURPRISED TO DISCOVER." Ole George didn't even know what were in the crates so why would it also be a "surprise for him to discover" that Maguire never sold anything but the tangible assets of the Thompson firearm to Kilgore in the first place.

 

Kilgore bought everything. The manufacturing rights were what were going to be sold to the Egyptians. There is nothing to show the officers of Kilgore would be so stupid as to pay $385,000 for a bunch of dusty crates. There is evidence to show the officers of Kilgore were certainly misguided in thinking they could make a deal with the Egyptians. You keep crediting Kilgore with more business acumen then the situation warrants. It doesn't matter that he thought he was buying "the manufacturing rights" to the Thompson. He also believed he had a deal with the Egyptians for a bunch of TSMG's.

 

It is immaterial whether of not Kilgore (or Willis) ever manufactured Thompsons. There was no deal. Kilgore never put the "manufacturing rights" to the test since he never manufactured any TSMG's and neither did the next purchaser, Willis, who also never looked inside the crates Kilgore sold to him.

 

As I have stated before, given the amount of money involved between two business entities is why I know a contract for sale was drafted and executed prior to payment. That is how incorporated businesses operate when making a business deal involving that much money – shareholder responsibilities and all. You do make a good point as to inventory. It is entirely reasonable to assume some type of inventory as to machinery, drawings, blueprints, special tools, and parts were attached to the contract. Even if Kilgore was a stupid as you would like to believe, I am sure Fredrick Willis, a former Executive of the Auto-Ordnance Corporation, New York, New York was well versed in the gun business – especially concerning a company he had previously worked at. Have you ever heard of any single business deal conducted by common sense entrepreneurs, never mind THREE separate deals, where the buyers of the physical property never took an accounting of what they were actually buying? So why be shocked to discover that they were also oblivious to the contents of the written materials such as copywriters and patents?

 

 

The price was $385,00. I think it very possible George Numrich let Helmer view all the records of the transaction. The use of the word “reportedly” is to accent the 48 hours it “reportedly” took to close the deal between Maguire Industries and Kilgore Manufacturing, not the purchase price. Helmer may have used the word “reportedly” because George told him that he had heard the deal between Kilgore and Maguire Industries took 48 hours. However, there is no reservation as to the purchase price – good point – George Numrich does have all the original or copies of the original contracts of sale. This would ensure to George that he was buying all the rights and left over assets pertaining to the Thompson Submachine Gun. 3) Again, show me where Helmer ever says he personally viewed the contents of this sale's agreement? Are you saying that you have seen it? If Helmer actually viewed this document then he would never use the term "reportedly" to describe the $365,000 sales figure. He would have seen that figure for himself disclosed in the document if he had access to it.

 

Maguire Industries sold all rights to the Thompson Submachine Gun to Kilgore – see above. Agree about Russell Maguire’s character. We do not know what ulterior motives Maguire may have had regarding the copyrighted names after selling the crates. He died before anyone ever attempted to make a TSMG in the U.S.A. using the Thompson name, the business name Auto-Ordnance Corporation, the bullet logo, or the patents. Knowing Maguire's previous history for underhandedness, the idea of him pouncing on Numrich with a lawsuit would appear to be keeping in character for Maguire.

 

West Hurley Thompsons have a direct link to General Thompson’s dream. The others do not but are none the less Thompson Submachine Guns. Replica is more of a John, Jr. issue http://www.machinegunbooks.com/forums/invboard1_1_2/upload/html/emoticons/wink.gif ; I am into making sure everyone knows the complete line of succession to what General Thompson began in Cleveland, Ohio in 1916…or at least providing all relevant information so they can make an informed decision. By the way, "the Pearl Thompsons, Doug Richardson receivers, foreign government produced Thompsons and even Dan Block’s beautiful Post Sample Thompson" share exactly the same non-existent lineage to the pre March 1944 Auto-Ordnance Corporation as that of the West Hurley. But they are indeed all replicas.

 

Anything produced by Doug Richardson has no lineage to General Thompson. However, the West Hurley Thompsons do have a direct link – see above beginning with my first post. HD.R. could have turned out "Thompson's" with his Malibu, CA address stamped on them back in 1975 and they wouldn't have any more lineage than Numrich/Trast's West Hurley, New York versions.

 

[Arthur Fliegenheimer]

QUOTE

given the amount of money involved between two business entities is why I know a contract for sale was drafted and executed prior to payment. That is how incorporated businesses operate when making a business deal involving that much money – shareholder responsibilities and all"

 

QUOTE

Maguire did not sell Kilgore a company; Maguire sold Kilgore all the assets pertaining to the Thompson Submachine Gun – all assets. All of these assets were part of the Ordnance Division of Maguire Industries.

 

OK. Your entire argument as to how WH is in any way related or relevant to the Maguire owned Auto-Ordnance Corporation pre 1944 is represented in your two statements above.

 

The first premise is based on the amount of money that Kilgore, "reportedly" paid to Maguire, but you do not have any idea what Willis paid Kilgore or what Numrich paid Willis.

 

How much less than $365,000 would suggest that Kilgore purchased only the materials contained in the crates? Maguire made over $15 million from the Thompson with government contracts. $365,000 seems a fire sale for such a proven money maker. Why wouldn't Maguire have sold directly to the Egyptians and by passed the middle man? Do you think Kilgore had access to info on potential buyers that Maguire didn't have? Or is it more likely that what was sold were just what was not even itemized, i.e. crated materials.

 

Your second premise is that Maguire did not sell a company name and Kilgore did not buy a company name, but merely the physical assets of that company. Now you are getting warmer. Except that you continue to superimpose some "I know because I know" broad interpretation of this sale because your personal understanding of big business deals dictates that the greater the amount of money involved guarantees an all encompassing purchase of any and all rights perceived or understood.

 

Instead of trying to grow WH roots all the way back to Cleveland, which by the way Helmer never even hinted at in his thesis book, why not rely on what is available to the public on this subject. The only thing we know and Helmer knows regarding Numrich and Willis' transaction is that crated Thompson assets were involved.

 

It seems that you have a soft spot for George Numrich that influences your analysis of the available information regarding this subject.

 

If William J. Helmer himself were to tell you that he never saw any of the three different contracts that any of the four participants signed from 1949 to 1951 and, therefore, has no way to endorse or vouch for what Numrich was entitled to, would you then reevaluate your misinterpretation of his info and that WH is no different from the other folks who made replica TSMG's?

[DC Chris]

Ok - this is getting old.

 

I have a 1928 and a M1 and a SBR M1. They shoot great and are a blast to collect and have fun with. I don't give a shit if someone thinks it is a replica or not. It is all what is important to you and to me dumping a C drum down range gives me a big smile. I would rather shoot and enjoy a replica than spend 35K on a safe queen I would not risk shooting. Just my opinion, of course.

 

This thread has deteriorated into arguing opinions and unverifiable facts, which is pointless. Been there and done that.

 

Chris.

[John Jr]

QUOTE (Arthur Fliegenheimer @ Dec 4 2005, 02:41 PM)

railroader, While Auto Ordnance Corporation did contract with Colt/Savage/AO to manufacture their Thompson 1921/1928 and the M1/M1A1 type SMG's, the firearms WH made initially in 1975 were and are still replicas.

The only guns that are not TSMGs are the semi auto guns. A Thompson Submachine Gun is a Thompson Submachine Gun, or Thompson or Tommy Gun for short. I may get reamed for saying a semi ain't a Thompson, but its not a Thompson.

 

I would think the closest thing I have seen to a replica TSMG would be that nasty Chinese thingy that Prasser was trying to get 80K for. Those cap guns the japs (yes, I said japs) made lots of that shot blanks full auto comes to mind next, but Westy is still a TSMG. http://www.machinegunbooks.com/forums/invboard1_1_2/upload/html/emoticons/soapbox.gif

[LIONHART]

I think it's time for John Jr's Not this Shit again Pic...What about it John?

[Grey Crow]

Ron,

 

What is depressing is that even a Savage Thompson is priced higher than what I earn in a year! http://www.machinegunbooks.com/forums/invboard1_1_2/upload/html/emoticons/sad.gif

 

You can bet that if someone walked into the bank with a Kahr 27A1 to make a withdrawal to purchase an original Thompson that the media would still say the bank was robbed by a machinegun toting villain. They would play it up like a 20's style hit and run. -->http://www.machinegunbooks.com/forums/invboard1_1_2/upload/html/emoticons/blink.gif

 

From what I've gleaned was that Numrich never produced any Thompson's of their own manufacture. They assembled them and sold what was left from crates of parts.

That it wasn't until Trast stepped in that the ATF approved the 27A1 for production. I'm not even certain if Trast produced FA's for LE, or foreign sales.

 

Would there be any government offices that might hold some sort of documentation as to where the name Auto Ordnance, and Thompson as registered names ended, or began again?

 

I'm sure if someone started producing another Tommy look alike under the same name, that Kahr would have them by the short hairs in no time flat.

If Kahr does not have the right to use the names it amazes me in this world of everyone wanting to make a buck fast that no charges have been filed.

 

Now everyone here knows or should know that a Kahr Thompson is not an original. Nor will it ever be!

 

Although it is in some circles looked at as a part of the evolution of the "style" of gun. If nothing else it makes the look of the gun available to more people.

 

Yep, I'd love to have a Colt, Savage or even a later AO.

Perhaps one day! http://www.machinegunbooks.com/forums/invboard1_1_2/upload/html/emoticons/smile.gif

 

John Jr.

QUOTE

I may get reamed for saying a semi ain't a Thompson, but its not a Thompson.

 

Then I guess a Colt 27 that has never been converted isn't a Thompson.. http://www.machinegunbooks.com/forums/invboard1_1_2/upload/html/emoticons/wink.gif

[John Jr]

QUOTE (LIONHART @ Dec 4 2005, 09:34 PM)

I think it's time for John Jr's Not this Shit again Pic...What about it John?

http://www.cswnet.com/~luther/notthisshit.jpg

 

http://www.machinegunbooks.com/forums/invboard1_1_2/upload/html/emoticons/wink.gif

[LIONHART]

QUOTE

What is depressing is that even a Savage Thompson is priced higher than what I earn in a year!

 

QUOTE

walked into the bank with a Kahr 27A1 to make a withdrawal to purchase an original Thompson

 

Crow, you planning something here? Well, if you do, I hope you the best of luck Brother. Just be sure to grab enough Dough for me too.. We'll go Thompson Shopping together!

 

Better yet, let's ALL Move to one Place, and create our own Township. We'll all get Deputized, and have as many MG's that we each could possibly afford!

[Arthur Fliegenheimer]

QUOTE

From what I've gleaned was that Numrich never produced any Thompson's of their own manufacture. They assembled them and sold what was left from crates of parts. That it wasn't until Trast stepped in that the ATF approved the 27A1 for production. I'm not even certain if Trast produced FA's for LE, or foreign sales.

Grey Cow

 

If the board will indulge me for a few moments longer on a subject that has taken up much band width now as it has before on this board. I believe what Grey Cow notes about the fact Numrich never made any TSMG's from the ground up is significant.

 

I'm not so sure it was the ATF regs that prohibited Numrich from utilizing the equipment he paid for and the supposed rights to all things Thompson. I think it had more to do with waiting for the patents, trademarks and logos to expire as well as waiting for Maguire to expire.

 

Trast was stalled by ATF with his semi-auto version until 1975, but neither he nor Numrich had any ATF hindrance to produce smg's. So again what was so magical about the year 1975 before either Numrich or Trask made even one ground up Thompson for their own amusement, LEO's, or foreign governments?

[John Jr]

QUOTE (Grey Crow @ Dec 4 2005, 09:38 PM)

John Jr. QUOTE I may get reamed for saying a semi ain't a Thompson, but its not a Thompson.   Then I guess a Colt 27 that has never been converted isn't a Thompson.. http://www.machinegunbooks.com/forums/invboard1_1_2/upload/html/emoticons/wink.gif I knew you would make me revise that!   A CLOSED BOLT, SEMI-AUTO ONLY produced in the last 30 some odd years ain't a Thompson Submachine Gun.   http://www.machinegunbooks.com/forums/invboard1_1_2/upload/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif

[TD.]

Actually No. All my posts on this thread lay out why you can trace the Thompson Submachine Gun from Cleveland to West Hurley, New York. In a word, cumulative. OK. Your entire argument as to how WH is in any way related or relevant to the Maguire owned Auto-Ordnance Corporation pre 1944 is represented in your two statements above.

 

No – I understand how corporate entities conduct business. The amount of money is somewhat inconsequential. The first premise is based on the amount of money that Kilgore, "reportedly" paid to Maguire, but you do not have any idea what Willis paid Kilgore or what Numrich paid Willis.

 

The amount is $385,000. Again, Kilgore bought everything. The equipment and drawings to manufacture the Thompson were what Kilgore planned to sell to the Egyptians. The manufacturing rights go hand in hand with that planned sale. I did not know Maguire had any contacts in Egypt that knew of Egypt’s interest in the Thompson Submachine Gun. Where did you find out about this? How much less than $365,000 would suggest that Kilgore purchased only the materials contained in the crates? Maguire made over $15 million from the Thompson with government contracts. $365,000 seems a fire sale for such a proven money maker. Why wouldn't Maguire have sold directly to the Egyptians and by passed the middle man? Do you think Kilgore had access to info on potential buyers that Maguire didn't have? Or is it more likely that what was sold were just what was not even itemized, i.e. crated materials.

 

Again, Kilgore bought everything. The equipment and drawings to manufacture the Thompson were what Kilgore planned to sell to the Egyptians. The manufacturing rights go hand in hand with that planned sale. Your second premise is that Maguire did not sell a company name and Kilgore did not buy a company name, but merely the physical assets of that company. Now you are getting warmer. Except that you continue to superimpose some "I know because I know" broad interpretation of this sale because your personal understanding of big business deals dictates that the greater the amount of money involved guarantees an all encompassing purchase of any and all rights perceived or understood.

 

Helmer connected all the entities in his scholarly thesis. It is all laid out step by step. Instead of trying to grow WH roots all the way back to Cleveland, which by the way Helmer never even hinted at in his thesis book, why not rely on what is available to the public on this subject. The only thing we know and Helmer knows regarding Numrich and Willis' transaction is that crated Thompson assets were involved.

 

Not true – never met or spoke to the man. However, I do have an appreciation that he donated all the prototypes Thompsons to West Point and registered the rest of the discovered Thompsons and receivers. It seems that you have a soft spot for George Numrich that influences your analysis of the available information regarding this subject.

 

Helmer reported all the transactions from Cleveland to West Hurley, New York and George Numrich stated and advertised that his company owned all the rights to the Thompson Submachine Gun. I suspect if Helmer had suspected anything different he would have researched further and at the very least reported his suspicions. The subsequent sale to Kahr Arms years later indicates something of value was purchased by George Numrich in 1951. If William J. Helmer himself were to tell you that he never saw any of the three different contracts that any of the four participants signed from 1949 to 1951 and, therefore, has no way to endorse or vouch for what Numrich was entitled to, would you then reevaluate your misinterpretation of his info and that WH is no different from the other folks who made replica TSMG's?

 

 

[TD.]

John, Jr..... http://www.machinegunbooks.com/forums/invboard1_1_2/upload/html/emoticons/hail.gif

[John Jr]

There is something else in the mix of the whole TD vs. AF deal. There was no money in making the Thompson because there were shitloads of them in the surplus market.

 

Ron K..

 

What were prices like back in the early 50s...? How about early 1970's? I bet not enough to make it pay to produce new ones. 1968 probably made it more attractive because of the importing issues, but still, prices weren't crazy like now.

 

Just a thought...

 

[Grey Crow]

QUOTE (LIONHART @ Dec 4 2005, 11:56 PM)

QUOTE walked into the bank with a Kahr 27A1 to make a withdrawal to purchase an original Thompson   Crow, you planning something here? Well, if you do, I hope you the best of luck Brother. Just be sure to grab enough Dough for me too.. We'll go Thompson Shopping together!   Better yet, let's ALL Move to one Place, and create our own Township. We'll all get Deputized, and have as many MG's that we each could possibly afford! LOL, I knew that there was another reason I should not have gone the SBR route. Dang now I'm in the top drawer. "Oh Bother"   I even though about selling insurance to local businesses. You know, just to make sure nothing happens.   Well if your going to have a throw away it might as well be a Kahr.   Perhaps an island! That way taxes can be charged to finance the purchase of MORE Thompson's.... Real Ones!

[Arthur Fliegenheimer]

TD,

 

If Helmer himself declares that what you have read into his thesis book is not stipulated to anywhere and that it is your interpretation, would you then be satisfied?

 

Cox, Richardson and Herigstadt have read this book as intently as you have and yet do not share your conclusions. Perhaps you have a copy that was never released to the public?

[Arthur Fliegenheimer]

QUOTE (John Jr @ Dec 4 2005, 11:04 PM)

There is something else in the mix of the whole TD vs. AF deal.  There was no money in making the Thompson because there were shitloads of them in the surplus market.  Just a thought...

Even if accurate, that doesn't explain why Numrich/Trast never produced one single unit in the 24 years since taking possession of the crates. The surplus TSMG's were still in the hands of the governments of the U.S. Great Britain, Soviet Union, not civilians back in 1951. What changed in 1975? These same entities still had their TSMG's. What government purchased WH TSMG's from Trast at any time during their production?

[TD.]

John, Jr., you have hit the nail on the head so to speak. The Thompson was obsolete when Maguire decided to change the direction of corporation. Pack up the past and pick a new name was the new order of business. There is nothing to indicate Maguire wanted to retain any rights related to the Thompson. The Thompson was old news; Maguire was off to bigger and better things. And to think Kilgore Manufacturing paid $385,000 for only a bunch of dusty crates when it planned on selling the manufacturing rights to the Egyptians is not a reasonable position. That coupled with Helmer’s reporting, Numrich’s statements of ownership and future actions with the Thompson Submachine Gun indicate Numrich bought it all in 1951. The line of succession is complete.