photonance Posted January 12, 2008 Report Share Posted January 12, 2008 Hey guys, My dad purchased a registered Dewat Colt Thompson 1927A in the early 60's, and since he has passed, my mom has transfered it to me either to keep or sell. To give a little background on the gun, dad purchased it from Bill Easterly, and he told dad (no documents) it had been registered to the Camden, NJ police dept, which was confirmed by a phone call to Gordon Herigstad. This gun has all original semi internals, and the chamber of the barrel is welded, and lightly tacked to the feed ramp. I was wondering if anyone would know an approximate value? Below are a few pictures, pardon the oil sheen, I will try to post more pictures tomorrow with outdoor lighting. Thanks! http://s183.photobucket.com/albums/x234/ph...py_edited-1.jpg http://s183.photobucket.com/albums/x234/ph...py_edited-2.jpg http://s183.photobucket.com/albums/x234/ph...TSMG005copy.jpg P.S. The stamp 320 is Camden PD's inventory stamp Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mp43sniper Posted January 12, 2008 Report Share Posted January 12, 2008 (edited) Hey guys, I was wondering if anyone would know an approximate value? If you're thinking of selling, once you get a value (and depending on what it is), I'd be interested in talking to you about the gun. Figured I'd post now to be first in line. Company bonuses are paid in March, and I haven't found something to blow mine on, I mean invest it in. Thanks, Craig Edited January 12, 2008 by mp43sniper Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
photonance Posted January 12, 2008 Author Report Share Posted January 12, 2008 Hey guys, I was wondering if anyone would know an approximate value? If you're thinking of selling, once you get a value (and depending on what it is), I'd be interested in talking to you about the gun. Figured I'd post now to be first in line. Company bonuses are paid in March, and I haven't found something to blow mine on, I mean invest it in. Thanks, Craig MP43sniper, I'll keep you at the top of the list Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Z3BigDaddy Posted January 13, 2008 Report Share Posted January 13, 2008 (edited) Hope it is a pretty big bonuse! It is probably worth at least $1.5K and a box of Milk Duds.... Edited January 13, 2008 by Z3BigDaddy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mp43sniper Posted January 13, 2008 Report Share Posted January 13, 2008 Hope it is a pretty big bonuse! Hey now, who's side are you on? You're supposed to help me convince him it's worth $1500 and a pack of gum. I ALREADY have the gum! Craig Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Z3BigDaddy Posted January 13, 2008 Report Share Posted January 13, 2008 (edited) Hope it is a pretty big bonuse! It is probably worth at least $1.5K and a box of Milk Duds.... You mis-read my post.... I said $1,500 and a box of Milk Duds.... You can probably trade you gum for some duds... Edited January 13, 2008 by Z3BigDaddy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
photonance Posted January 13, 2008 Author Report Share Posted January 13, 2008 Hope it is a pretty big bonuse! <_ it is probably worth at least and a box of milk duds....> You mis-read my post.... I said $1,500 and a box of Milk Duds.... You can probably trade you gum for some duds... Na! No milk duds, maybe reeses cups! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DC Chris Posted January 13, 2008 Report Share Posted January 13, 2008 (edited) Hey guys, My dad purchased a registered Dewat Colt Thompson 1927A in the early 60's, and since he has passed, my mom has transfered it to me either to keep or sell. To give a little background on the gun, dad purchased it from Bill Easterly, and he told dad (no documents) it had been registered to the Camden, NJ police dept, which was confirmed by a phone call to Gordon Herigstad. This gun has all original semi internals, and the chamber of the barrel is welded, and lightly tacked to the feed ramp. I was wondering if anyone would know an approximate value? Below are a few pictures, pardon the oil sheen, I will try to post more pictures tomorrow with outdoor lighting. Thanks! http://s183.photobucket.com/albums/x234/ph...py_edited-1.jpg http://s183.photobucket.com/albums/x234/ph...py_edited-2.jpg http://s183.photobucket.com/albums/x234/ph...TSMG005copy.jpg P.S. The stamp 320 is Camden PD's inventory stamp Colt 1927's are quite rare and yours is probably 70-80%(???), so I would think starting would be at least 30K at the minimum and possibly quite higher. I think that is insane for a Thompson (and not trying to feed the greed), but I think JC Devine had some go a few years ago in the 30-40K range at auctions that IIRC were in better shape and not dewatted. These guns are rare and just don't turn over much. Edited January 13, 2008 by DC Chris Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mp43sniper Posted January 13, 2008 Report Share Posted January 13, 2008 I would think starting would be at least 30K at the minimum and possibly quite higher. Yeah, uh, my bonus isn't quite that much so thanks photnance but you can move on to the next person that contacted you. Bummer, I thought '27s were less desirable and the dewat status would help keep the value even lower. I need my first Thompson, but can't sell the house (my wife would be upset). Maybe I could sell her car? Craig Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DC Chris Posted January 13, 2008 Report Share Posted January 13, 2008 (edited) I would think starting would be at least 30K at the minimum and possibly quite higher. Yeah, uh, my bonus isn't quite that much so thanks photnance but you can move on to the next person that contacted you. Bummer, I thought '27s were less desirable and the dewat status would help keep the value even lower. I need my first Thompson, but can't sell the house (my wife would be upset). Maybe I could sell her car? Craig Sorry Craig - Didn't mean to dash your hopes. Because the Colt 1927's are registered as machine guns (it is trivial to make it full auto and select fire again and they fire from an open bolt), this is why these are so pricey. Its also a Colt (first pedigree) and an extremely rare variant of that on top of it. If you want to get a modern era 1927 semi, you can get a Kahr or a semi West Hurley for less than 1.5K easily with accessories... I have seen used modern era 1927's (closed bolt) for as low as $600 or so. You could even short barrel it or order a SB from Kahr so it looks somewhat authentic. If you want to go full auto, 1928 West Hurleys are soft in price now... if you look closely and are patient you could probably get one from the 12K to 14K range. Just remember that cars depreciate in value unless you have rare/exotic ones. Besides buying my house before the real estate boom around here, NFA firearms are one one of my better investments. But, I am a shooter, not a safe queen keeper. Fixed supply (due to the 1986 Hughes amendment) and high demand draw prices up. Maybe you can approach your wife with that line of reasoning. A 30K car won't be worth a quarter of that after 7 years, but machine guns and collectible firearms values rise over time. photonance - I agree with Phil 100% - If the rewat does not sacrifice any original Colt parts, it would drive the price higher. Please don't refinish/reblue the gun or even remove the asset tag! That will drop the value. If you rewat it or your buyer does so, they have succeeded if there is no evidence of a dewat and all original parts are intact. PK on this forum is the one I would talk to if you wanted to do this before you sell it. If you want to sell it you could probably get more if it was fully functional again. This is all assuming the gun is on a Form 3 (if you are a FFL/SOT) or Form 4 with your name on it. If you don't have paper for it from the ATF (or it wasn't transferred to you in your name after your dad died), it could be considered illegal machine gun possession and you could risk serious legal issues. If you possess it, you have to have paper with your name on it. I wasn't sure when you said your mom "transferred" it to you if that was a NFA transfer or your mom just gave it to you to keep or sell it. If you don't physically have the form, the ATF can provide a certified copy and be able to help, but it has to be in your name if you have the gun. Point being - make sure the registration is good to go before you sell it. There is a block on a form 4 transfer for a deceased owner, but I never have gone through that process personally. I believe you just provide a copy of the death certificate and go through the normal routine of a NFA transfer to the person who now possesses the firearm. Hopefully this is all taken care of and I am just blabbing on about shit you already know about. I would hate to see anyone get in trouble or have that gun seized and melted by the feds. Regardless - congrats on the firearm - that is a very rare and collectible piece. Your dad had good taste. Chris. Edited January 13, 2008 by DC Chris Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
giantpanda4 Posted January 13, 2008 Report Share Posted January 13, 2008 This is all assuming the gun is on a Form 3 (if you are a FFL/SOT) or Form 4 with your name on it. If you don't have paper for it from the ATF (or it wasn't transferred to you in your name after your dad died), it could be considered illegal machine gun possession and you could risk serious legal issues. If you possess it, you have to have paper with your name on it. I wasn't sure when you said your mom "transferred" it to you if that was a NFA transfer or your mom just gave it to you to keep or sell it. If you don't physically have the form, the ATF can provide a certified copy and be able to help, but it has to be in your name if you have the gun. Point being - make sure the registration is good to go before you sell it. There is a block on a form 4 transfer for a deceased owner, but I never have gone through that process personally. I believe you just provide a copy of the death certificate and go through the normal routine of a NFA transfer to the person who now possesses the firearm. Hopefully this is all taken care of and I am just blabbing on about shit you already know about. I would hate to see anyone get in trouble or have that gun seized and melted by the feds. Regardless - congrats on the firearm - that is a very rare and collectible piece. Your dad had good taste. Chris. There is a way to attach a copy of the death cert and fillout the names of the heirs to get the transfer. I am in the process of doing that, but it has been three months so far. Why so long? Seems the tax people want to get a part of the money, not as an inheritance tax, but through probate. My transfer got sent to the Legal Dept, where it now sits. Bummer. Yours should be an easy transfer since it is staying in the family. Goold luck - and your Dad really did have good tastes! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
photonance Posted January 13, 2008 Author Report Share Posted January 13, 2008 This is all assuming the gun is on a Form 3 (if you are a FFL/SOT) or Form 4 with your name on it. If you don't have paper for it from the ATF (or it wasn't transferred to you in your name after your dad died), it could be considered illegal machine gun possession and you could risk serious legal issues. If you possess it, you have to have paper with your name on it. I wasn't sure when you said your mom "transferred" it to you if that was a NFA transfer or your mom just gave it to you to keep or sell it. If you don't physically have the form, the ATF can provide a certified copy and be able to help, but it has to be in your name if you have the gun. Point being - make sure the registration is good to go before you sell it. There is a block on a form 4 transfer for a deceased owner, but I never have gone through that process personally. I believe you just provide a copy of the death certificate and go through the normal routine of a NFA transfer to the person who now possesses the firearm. Hopefully this is all taken care of and I am just blabbing on about shit you already know about. I would hate to see anyone get in trouble or have that gun seized and melted by the feds. Regardless - congrats on the firearm - that is a very rare and collectible piece. Your dad had good taste. Chris. There is a way to attach a copy of the death cert and fillout the names of the heirs to get the transfer. I am in the process of doing that, but it has been three months so far. Why so long? Seems the tax people want to get a part of the money, not as an inheritance tax, but through probate. My transfer got sent to the Legal Dept, where it now sits. Bummer. Yours should be an easy transfer since it is staying in the family. Goold luck - and your Dad really did have good tastes! Thanks guys, The gun was registered on a form 5 (being Dewatted) so it transfered from my Dad's estate to me on a form 5 as of last year. You guys are never going to guess how long the transfer took mailbox to mailbox, 16 days. If I decide to rewat it, I believe I will have PK look at it. It sounds like he is the Thompson man, as far as restoring. As far as selling the gun, I am not sure as of yet, but I was thinking in the 34-40k range, some have suggested 50-60k if it were in serviceable condition. I just wish PK didn't have such a backlog, it sounds like over a year wait. I will try to get some pics of the chamber weld if I can and post them, it is a hard area to photograph. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
philasteen Posted January 13, 2008 Report Share Posted January 13, 2008 It's a nice gun, but as a fellow 1927 owner, I'd say the following: - If it can't be rewatted without swapping out the original barrel, then leave it in dewat condition. I think a collector would rather have it in original condition with the dewat provenance rather than in restored conditioned. - The Camden tag is part of provenance and adds, not detracts value - The condition on the piece is a little rough, which will hurt value If you want a shooter, then I'd recommend that you sell this piece and replace it with a West Hurley or military gun. Here is a photo of mine: http://users.rcn.com/philistine/1927.JPG Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Merry Ploughboy Posted January 13, 2008 Report Share Posted January 13, 2008 As the ground out and restamped areas of the left side of the receiver should be in the white, there is a possibility that this gun was already refinished in the past. MHO, YMMV, etc. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TD. Posted January 13, 2008 Report Share Posted January 13, 2008 Any re-watt Thompson is going to be valued a little less than a Thompson that was never de-watted. However, this is a Model of 1927 - a Thompson not commonly found for sale. If rewatted, it needs to be done by a professional Thompsonsmith, an original Colt barrel that somewhat matches the finish on the rest of the gun needs to be located, and the original barrel needs to be saved. The first two items will be somewhat expensive, but will increase the value of this very desirable Thompson. If you are going to sell it no matter what, I would let the new owner deal with the re-watting process and price this Thompson accordingly. It may take a long time to find the "right" barrel. This is not a shooter Thompson; however, its condition is such that it can be fired (when re-watted) on occasion without any real loss of value. I suggest contacting SIG, a member on this Board that tracks the sale of Colt Thompsons. I believe several Model of 1927 Thompsons have sold over the last two years. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
photonance Posted January 13, 2008 Author Report Share Posted January 13, 2008 I would probably shoot this gun once or twice if reactivated and put it up, I have a Savage 28 as a shooter, so no real desire to shoot this one. Phil, you are correct, I have hunted Colt Thompson barrels, and they are EXTREMELY hard to find, and expensive if you do. As for the finish, I have seen most Colts have the left side stamps with white lettering, so I do not know if this is an original, or refinish. Anyone with a 27 know if they were refinished after the Model of 1927 was stamped on them? I do agree, if the barrel cannot be spared, I may just leave it like it is. I really appreciate the input from this board, so much Thompson knowlege, you guys are such great help. I hope I can pass along some of the knowlege I have learned. Thanks! Rob Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FireMerc Posted January 13, 2008 Report Share Posted January 13, 2008 (edited) As far as what Merry Ploughboy was using to reference the possible refinish, was the fact that when your Thompson left the factory it was a '21 and was capable of selectable full auto fire (exactly like any other '21). It also left the factory blued, the police department appearently wanted the Thompson to only have semi-auto capability so they would have sent it back to the factory. The factory installed the semi-auto only conversion parts and milled out the areas on your receiver and frame. They did not however re-blue the guns afterward, so if the gun had not been refinished sometime later the areas that have been milled should still be in the 'white'. The white lettering that your seeing is usually a lacquer-stick that can be rubbed into the letters to make them stand out. When the guns left the factory they would simply be blued. If your barrel can be re-used that would be my first choice. If not I would not search for another '21 factory barrel I would simply use a Doug R.'s. Edited January 13, 2008 by FireMerc Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
inertord Posted January 13, 2008 Report Share Posted January 13, 2008 From past references it appears that the milled out areas had a blackened finish applied, not re-blued. Also the applied blackened finish was easily removed by handling / cleaning. The milled areas often take on a brown patina appearence over time. It is nice that your 1927 is an "A" Model, as most appear to have had Cutts Compensators. Also that you mentioned that yours does retain the factory original semi parts. Both would seem to add positive features to an already rare variation. IMHO whatever you do (And I am not trying to tell you your business) think it over carefully, as you will probably never have the opportunity to have the possession of another 1927A again. <_> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bmarvin Posted January 14, 2008 Report Share Posted January 14, 2008 I found an existing thread on these boards from a year ago on this exact gun the was sold on gunbroker in February of 2007. It has the same property tag and serial number as the one in the photos. Back then people were saying 35k was too much. FWIW http://www.machinegunbooks.com/forums/invb...859&hl=1927 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
photonance Posted January 14, 2008 Author Report Share Posted January 14, 2008 I found an existing thread on these boards from a year ago on this exact gun the was sold on gunbroker in February of 2007. It has the same property tag and serial number as the one in the photos. Back then people were saying 35k was too much. FWIW http://www.machinegunbooks.com/forums/invb...859&hl=1927 Yes, this is the same gun, my mom wanted to sell it at the time and I was having it brokered (should have listed it myself), and the broker did NOT list the gun with the correct information, as you could tell from him listing the wrong serial number, and he also did not state it was a dewat. The deal fell through, mainly because of the incorrect information, so we decided to keep it for the time being. I have had a hard time nailing down an approximate value, I have had such a wide range of prices suggested. My class III dealer is wanting to purchase it and keep it dewatted, and I believe he wants to pay around 35K. This gun is just so rare, I am having a hard time deciding. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bmarvin Posted January 14, 2008 Report Share Posted January 14, 2008 I'm not trying to start anything or make any accusations. I have a file set up in my computer to track Colt Thompsons, their approximate condition and their selling price. When I checked my file against the photos shown by the original poster, I came up with a match from 2.07. After that, a quick forum search produced the original thread. Maybe the deal never closed on Gunbroker or maybe it has since been resold. Just thought it was interesting as you don't see too many 27's Brian Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
regalka Posted January 14, 2008 Report Share Posted January 14, 2008 Hi, I purchased a 1927A on September 30, 2006. Here's the link which also shows the price I paid (http://www.auctionarms.com/search/displayitem.cfm?ItemNum=7638844). Given its rarity and provenance, I think the price I paid over 1 year ago was quite fair. Hope this helps, Ron Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bmarvin Posted January 14, 2008 Report Share Posted January 14, 2008 In 1994 the Bob Miller collection sold #4926, a 27 AC in 90%, for $15,000. At the same auction, a 21AC (#7271) in similar condition sold for $6000. Of course, J.Curtis Earl advertised his 3 27's starting at $14,500 each in 1986 when he was advertising 21's and 28 Navy's for $3000-$4000 each. The most recent 27 sale that has not been mentioned was on 1.13.07 for a Colt 1927AC Thompson. The gun sold in Maryland for $37,999 and was advertised as an original 90% plus. It seems that prices have flattened if not fallen in the last year. With transferable, non dewats selling in the upper 30's, I would think that your dealer's offer of $35,000 is fair. You may command more if you have the time to wait,however a 27 Colt is mainly for the advanced Colt Thompson collector, more so than the shooter. FWIW Brian Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bug Posted January 14, 2008 Report Share Posted January 14, 2008 In 1994 the Bob Miller collection sold #4926, a 27 AC in 90%, for $15,000. At the same auction, a 21AC (#7271) in similar condition sold for $6000. Of course, J.Curtis Earl advertised his 3 27's starting at $14,500 each in 1986 when he was advertising 21's and 28 Navy's for $3000-$4000 each. The most recent 27 sale that has not been mentioned was on 1.13.07 for a Colt 1927AC Thompson. The gun sold in Maryland for $37,999 and was advertised as an original 90% plus. It seems that prices have flattened if not fallen in the last year. With transferable, non dewats selling in the upper 30's, I would think that your dealer's offer of $35,000 is fair. You may command more if you have the time to wait,however a 27 Colt is mainly for the advanced Colt Thompson collector, more so than the shooter. FWIW Brian Brian, great info, thanks for sharing. It sounds like you have a very good handle on Colt prices. Do you monitor the WWII and WH guns as well? Bob D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bmarvin Posted January 14, 2008 Report Share Posted January 14, 2008 Not the WH or WWII guns, just the Colts Brian Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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