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Yet Another M1921 Trying to Identify!


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I have this 1921 that I am trying to nail down the history of, I have a reasonably good idea, of its lineage but I would like to see if I could find out the exact dates its came to the emerald isle.

 

I have had the remains of the serial number photographed and the photos enhanced, I have also used several types of images intencifying methods to see if there are any clues beneath the surface of the metal, the number I have managed to uncover appears to be 640. If you have any information on that weapon, I would be grateful to receive it, also if you have a look and feel that I am incorrect in the Identification of this number I would be happy to hear your thoughts.

 

More information on this weapon to follow, and I need to compress the photo files before I can post them pleas await further pictures.

many thanks for your time.

 

Pete.

 

 

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Hi Pete,

Welcome to the boards!

I do not have a copy of Gordon's book here but someone will have it and add the info Gordon had for 640.

Your guess seems pretty good. Is this gun in your possession? Or with someone willing to remove the barrel and look at the "secret" serial number under the grip mount? That usually definitively gives us the original S/N form defaced guns.

Of course the frame has a number as well - do you have any pictures of that number?

Very interesting gun - what history do you know of it?

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Hi Pete Burdain,

My 3rd Edition of Gordon Herigstad's book on Colt Thompson Serial Numbers shows NO 640 to be an Irish Republican Army (IRA) 1921A Thompson gun sold to P.J. Gentry, New York, New York, c/o John J. Murphy, Murphy Hotel, and shipped on May 25, 1921. Gordon's last edition may have additional information.

 

I assume you are familiar with those names. A great write up of the history of the Thompson gun with the IRA can be found by Patrick Jung in Tracie Hill's, Thompson: The American Legend and later, The Ultimate Thompson Book. I am not sure if any additional information has been updated or published in The Irish Sword ​by Jung or other authors.

 

It appears NO 640 has survived. I look forward to hearing more about it. Thank you for sharing!

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Gentlemen,

Thanks very much for your response. Very enlightening.

Now for the history on how it is in my possession.

This weapon was handed in to the RUC (how long ago I know not) and eventually handed to the British Army, it then found its way to Sandhurst Military College where it stayed foe many years in the armoury gathering dust, a few weeks back Sandhurst armoury needed to be downsized as there was a lot of items there no longer required this weapon being one of them and to was then handed to the Warminster School of Infantry British Army Weapons Collection.

I was over there for a visit not long ago and the armourer, ( I myself am an armourer and we manage to sniff each other out and stick together! ) asked if I would like to have a look at this 'old tommy gun ' they had just got, he was of the opinion it should not go up for destruction (as it was) because the what looked like where the serial number was supposed to be was only three digits making it a very early and consequently important piece.

The Wraminster collection has been around for nearly two hundred years and has a vast and varied collection of firearms from all parts of history, and as they already had a 1921 Thompson the curator wanted to know why he should keep this one.

 

Along comes me.

 

I take a look at it and from the three digits I recognised this as potentially being VERY important so I offered my services at my place of work to use NDT techniques to try and determine the serial number. and came up with the results above.

 

The Weapon itself is in a very poor state as it was buried in a burlap sack and forgotten about until it was discovered and handed into the RUC, now the bad news. Only the upper half is 1921 the lower half is of an M1A1, the thinking behind this is your average back street witless provo armourer, wouldn't have the wherwithall to repair any fault with a lower half and so an easier/quicker fix is to replace the whole lower section. like I said the bad news. BUT the uppoer half is still here and is a very nice historic piece that will be greatly received by the Warminster collection.

Thank you all very much.

 

p.s. on a more vulgar note does anyone have a rough idea how much this would be worth, as I need to let them know how much to add to the insurance details.

Thanks.

Pete.

Edited by Pete Burdain
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I assume it is in the UK. So if it was over here and if it was registered... which it is not and it is not(!), it cannot get a value here.

 

If it were here and registered, maybe even a little more like $12+K if it had the original barrel still on it.

 

Which reminds me - since it is one of the first 999 guns made, there is a good chance of another electropenciled serial number on the breech end of the barrel. I was able to see it on mine previously. You will need a mirror and good light, but that could solve your s/n question!

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Pete Burdain,

Aside from the IRA Thompsons being some of the first guns manufactured by Colt's and this one having a defaced 3 digit serial number, I would also point out the condition of this Thompson provides a great indication how the IRA was forced to hide their weapons in less than perfect conditions over the years. In addition, it appears some Thompson guns were stored in a disassembled state and upon reassembly for use or training, the frame from a World War II Thompson gun was matted to this early Colt product (and it will work fine like this). This also confirms Thompson guns from World War II and beyond found their way to the IRA. All in all, a great piece of history.

 

I would price it in the UK according to the going rate of a DEAC Colt Thompson. You will find this will be many thousands of dollars because so few exist in the DEAC marketplace.

 

We look forward to more pictures! Thank you for sharing.

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first I used eddy current/dye technique to see anything and them PFD 8 Dye penetrant to bring out any cracks and also bruising in the metal, then the photography section took some very high definition pictures of it for very close up work, and from that a bit of Mickey Spillane detective work and came up with those results above.

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I have seen the photos on facebook and it appears that the barrel and front sight are the orginal Colt used parts. It would be interesting to see if the bolt is an original one, or a later 28 replacement.

 

Pete Burdain, an armourer would have used any parts available to keep the gun working and by your standard that makes them witless? Perhaps you should stick to the history of the 1921 in question and keep your political views private.

 

The last Colt 1921 for sale in the UK sold for £10,000 a few years back, but it was a live firearm in great condition.

 

D

Edited by 765 21D
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  • 1 month later...
  • 2 weeks later...

I'm an Armourer myself trained by the MOD, therefore I think that puts me in the position to pass judgement on whoever did this,

however you are right this is not the place for politics, this is the place for history.

 

but I will not apologise.

Perhaps you would not have used an M1 trigger frame, but you are aware that the 1921Thompson in question would still function and therefore the armourer that used that part kept it working. Perhaps your definition of an armourer is not the same as mine?

 

A maker, supplier, or repairer of weapons or armour.

 

Who wants an apology?

 

D

Edited by 765 21D
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