Parts Identification Assistance Needed

[CTS]

I recently came across these parts which came with a 1927A5 I acquired a few years back. I believe it to be a 1979 West Hurley.

 

The one I know is a replacement bolt. The other one appears to me to be some sort of fixed firing pin. Its pin location positions it to where the tip slightly protrudes through the bolt.

 

I believe the two U-shaped pieces to be some sort of buffer. Their shape appears to be close if not identical to the aftermarket buffers I have seen. They are a sandwich construction with the two outer plates rivited together with a hard plastic in the center. I have not attempted to compress it but by probing it seems to be almost rigid. The plates appear to be stainless and the edges are all nicely machined radii.

 

Any information would be appreciated.

[T Hound]

Yes, the bottom is obviously a bolt, the two u-shaped items are most

definitely Thompson buffers. The smaller cylindrical piece is a pin-probably

for the bolt.

 

The remaining item that does look like some kind of firing pin doesn't look standard.

I am familiar with both the FA and SA parts and it doesn't look like a standard firing pin at all.

But the square like projection under the cylindrical body is definitely suggestive of the semi-auto

firing pin of the Numrich design. This probably was someone's home modification of the

firing pin or an attempt to build their own firing pin.

 

Not sure what the small round thing next to the small pin is. Kind of looks like the top of a

screw. However, it might be a internal spacer for the pin inside the bolt in order to keep

it from moving around--if you look closely there seems to be a hole in the center of the round

object that patches the approximate diameter of the small pin. I also note that there is a faint outline

on the "firing pin" itself which seems to match the size of the round thing. Regardless, the round

thing and improvised firing pin are not standard parts.

Edited February 5, 2013 by T Hound

[CTS]

The round thing is a flat head socket capscrew that was in the bag. I meant to lay it sideways. I don't see anywhere it could be used on the gun. The pin is for affixing whatever sort of firing pin that is.

 

The firing pin's profile is such that it would not have been cut from an original piece. As it is pinned into the bolt in a fixed position it essentially makes the bolt the same as an open bolt in functionality. That being said, I have no idea how it would actually function relative to engaging with the trigger group. Not that I have any intention of trying.

 

I have been researching buffers and I have not run across any that look like this. The one's I've seen are one-piece urethane cutouts. These seem to lack any "give" that a urethane piece would have so I wonder what purpose they would serve. I neglected to note that they are a different thicknesses. One at .290" and the other at .400". That would seem to indicate they either had a different effect based on thickness or that different versions of the rifle required different sizes. I'd be curious to know if anyone knew anything specific about them. To the best of my knowledge these parts have been in this box for the last 30 years or so.

 

As far as the bolt, is it wise to hang onto a spare? It seems to me to be the only piece that would be hard to replace or repair. I also have gotten the impression that bolts of current manufacture are of lesser quality.

[T Hound]

The round thing is a flat head socket capscrew that was in the bag. I meant to lay it sideways. I don't see anywhere it could be used on the gun. The pin is for affixing whatever sort of firing pin that is.

 

The firing pin's profile is such that it would not have been cut from an original piece. As it is pinned into the bolt in a fixed position it essentially makes the bolt the same as an open bolt in functionality. That being said, I have no idea how it would actually function relative to engaging with the trigger group. Not that I have any intention of trying.

 

I have been researching buffers and I have not run across any that look like this. The one's I've seen are one-piece urethane cutouts. These seem to lack any "give" that a urethane piece would have so I wonder what purpose they would serve. I neglected to note that they are a different thicknesses. One at .290" and the other at .400". That would seem to indicate they either had a different effect based on thickness or that different versions of the rifle required different sizes. I'd be curious to know if anyone knew anything specific about them. To the best of my knowledge these parts have been in this box for the last 30 years or so.

 

As far as the bolt, is it wise to hang onto a spare? It seems to me to be the only piece that would be hard to replace or repair. I also have gotten the impression that bolts of current manufacture are of lesser quality.

 

Okay Flathead socket cap screw noted. I was wondering since it was difficult to see details on that particular piece.

The pin, yeah I figured it was for the firing pin. Sounds like a previous owner or the previous owner was experimenting.

As far as being wise to have spares--anybody who gunsmiths their own Thompson will have multiple parts. I have three

spares of the bolts and two firing pins. I have at least three springs and so on and so on. So yes it is wise. But what

the guy who had it before did doesn't look like repairs--more like inspiration that may have not worked. Who knows. But

it is interesting.

[CTS]

What's your opinion on the buffers? Are buffers even useful or are they only a necessary addition when loweing recoil spring tension?

 

These are exceptionally well made, but as rigid as they are I question if they have much absorbtion ability, if any. I'm also curious as to why two thicknesses.

 

The way these are constructed leads me to wonder if they're not a commercial product that has just come and gone.

[T Hound]

The buffers are indeed necessary. Their construction is designed to absorb recoil

energy rather than pass it on to the back of the receiver. Without it you could

eventually find cracks in the back of the receiver. But the buffer has another purpose too. In the TSMG and the semi-auto it keeps the recoil spring pilot from flying out the back of the receiver due to the recoil spring tension. For that purpose alone it is necessary let alone recoil absorption.

 

The hard plastic between the buffers is what helps absorb the recoil energy. While

it might seem hard to you if you squeeze it, if you could somehow watch a slow

motion film of the bolt and spring coming back onto the buffer, you would see it

compress. Of course the main job of slowing the bolt is via the recoil spring and

the buffer adds just an extra bit to slowing the recoil force impulse to the back of

the receiver. Now could you take out the buffer and just put a piece of sheet metal

in order to keep the recoil spring pilot from shooting out the back? Yes, of course,

you could. But the recoil force would then hit the back a little harder and over time

the cracks can appear.

 

But there is some issue here. It looks like you have full-auto and semi-auto parts

mixed together. The urethane buffer shown is for the TSMG and not the semi-auto.

On the semi-auto instead of a urethane buffer their is an all metal construction U-shaped

piece of metal with two pilot posts and two springs. The middle spring on the semi-auto

is for firing pin so the semi-auto has three springs while the TSMG has only one

spring--the recoil spring.

 

Now this has brought up another question with me. What does the back end of the bolt

look like? Does it have ONE hole or THREE? If it has only one hole then it is a TSMG

M1 bolt. If it has three then it is the N/K patent semi-auto bolt.

Edited February 10, 2013 by T Hound

[CTS]

I questioned the buffer issue as one is not indicated in the AO/Kahr parts schematic.

 

I inquired about the Tommygunner spring and buffer kit. I was told it was available only to gunsmiths.

 

On these buffers I have, I put one in the press and with 5k/lbs on it, the deflection was .003".

 

On the recoil spring out the back, I should have noted- this is the steel receiver.

 

They are three-hole bolts.

 

This whole issue began with a bolt jam. The bolt retracted rearward and the ejector somehow became dislodged. It moved rearwards in it's retention groove. The tab on the inside face held the ejector out and away from the slot and hung up on the hole between the bolt cavity and the magazine well. It was a real head-scratcher figuring out how to get the whole thing apart. I ended up having to make a tool.

 

Thanks for your insights!

[T Hound]

You most definitely questioned right. The buffer is exactly the same as my

M1 TSMG (i.e. full auto Thompson) parts kit has (I have a 1928 kit too).

It is also commonely shown on the TSMG exploded parts diagrams in Thompson

manuals. See URL: http://www.nfatoys.c...smg/default.htm then click on Thompson

parts list and then Thompson breakdown for instance. On the Thompson

parts list you will have to page down to the M1 unique parts because the

buffer you show is unique to that model (well, also the M1A1).

 

After this extra info, especially that the bolt is indeed a semi-auto bolt,

I would say that it probably was an experiment of the original owner.

Home builders have been around for quite awhile. There are builds

that use the TSMG recoil spring instead of the N/K patent three

spring system. These systems use a striker. See Joe H's striker

build on Weapons Guild Thompson SMG and you will get the idea.

Edited February 11, 2013 by T Hound

[T Hound]

 

 

I inquired about the Tommygunner spring and buffer kit. I was told it was available only to gunsmiths.

 

 

 

Huh, that's weird. I have bought those very same things from Kahr/Auto-Ordnance without issue and

I am not a gunsmith in the professional way--just a lowly math teacher. Try this: order the parts from the

site via their online sales. I doubt very much they will say no. They want your money and the idiot who

said it was only for gunsmiths is an idiot.

Edited February 11, 2013 by T Hound

[T Hound]

This whole issue began with a bolt jam. The bolt retracted rearward and the ejector somehow became dislodged. It moved rearwards in it's retention groove. The tab on the inside face held the ejector out and away from the slot and hung up on the hole between the bolt cavity and the magazine well. It was a real head-scratcher figuring out how to get the whole thing apart. I ended up having to make a tool. Thanks for your insights!

 

Are you sure you mean "ejector"? There is zero possiblity of it moving rearward unless there is catastrophic

damage to the receiver itself and that would be obvious to you. Rather it sounds like the extractor which is on

the bolt cylinder (which normal houses the firing pin). The extractor can back out off the bolt but it can't go

backwards or rearwards towards the end of the bolt because it would break. The extractor is slide into

a slot which is machined into the bolt cyclinder. The slot does not continue past the bolt main body so it is not possible that the extractor could slide rearward. What I am supposing happened is that the extractor slide off forwards from the bolt. That is definitely possible. you probably need a new extractor--don't tell Kahr/Auto-Ordnance you aren't a gunsmith

(LOL) .

Edited February 11, 2013 by T Hound

[CTS]

Yes, extractor, not ejector. Mondays...

 

In the case of my jam, the extractor did move rearwards (towards the bolt body). Looking at the extractor slot, there's a round hole slightly behind the bolt face thatthe retention tab on the underside of the extractor engages. Then there's a T-slot that terminates in a round hole. On the spare bolt, the rear of the extractor aligns with the end of the t-slot right at the hole. On mine, the extractor was pushed back into this round cutout. I had to tie the bolt handle to the rear site, then make a tool that I could slide around the curvature of the bolt and slide between the bolt body and the space between the extractor tip and the position retention tab. I then braced it and drove the extractor forward with a pin punch. It snapped back down into proper position and I was then able to remove the springs, guide and then the bolt. I found that the firing pin retainer pin was sheared and that the pin that limits firing pin forward travel was almost sheared.

 

I looked at both the manual and parts diagram downloads on the AO website. The parts diagram shows what looks like a 1928 and shows a U-shaped buffer (listed as M1 part), The "manual" shows the 1927 and does not show a buffer.

 

I am wondering if there's a part missing. While it doesn't show or list a buffer, I can't help but wonder why the bolt would be able to withdraw past the opening in the receiver and if the movement of the extarctor wasn't related to the bolt coming to a violent halt while traveling rearward.

 

FYI- I only fired the rifle on one occasion and the jam occurred within 10 rounds.

[T Hound]

Okay, just a bit of miscommunication. There is indeed a circular recess, but it doesnt go back further than that.

I understand what you are talking about now. The extractor went back further than it is supposed to and

then the bolt went back far enough for the extractor to get stuck on the inside forward wall of the receiver bolt chamber.

Tough break. I would still replace the extractor. They are known to break and it is wise to have a few around. If it

went to far once then the metal on the extractor is probably deformed enough to do it again. In your case I pictured

the extractor going into the main part of the body which is can't do--sorry for the confusion.

 

Yeah the 1927 manual wouldn't show such a buffer because it's buffer looks more like a plug. If you go to the unofficial

Tommy gun site, url listed above, you can see all the parts for both types 1927/1928 and M1/M1A1 TSMGs. But they

wont, of course, match the semi-auto parts diagrams except for the basic shape of the bolt. The geometry of the

Semi-auto is also 1/10th of an inch less high than the tsmg so that the SA bolt is 1/10th of an inch less high.

 

I am not sure what you mean by a part missing--from your rifle? Or from the picture you posted?

[CTS]

What I meant by "missing part" was- "did the AO production 1927 have a buffer?" I would like to know why this jam happened and how to prevent it from happening again. As I mentioned, i wondered why the bolt would retract so far into the receiver to allow the extractor to hang up as it did. I also am very curious to know how the extractor became dislodged. In thinking it through, the only time the extractor would be deflected would be sometime between when a round was stripped from the mag and when the bolt went into battery. On the way back out I don't imagine the ejector would push the extractor out much, if at all. So, this is my confusion- not seeing a buffer in the parts diagram for my 1927, but having this failure and the idea that the bolt travels so far rearward.

 

I looked at the referenced page- the buffer I have looks to be the same one shown in the M1 diagram all the way at the bottom.

 

I attached the parts diagram I am working from- downloaded from the AO/Kahr website.

[T Hound]

Extractors break for all sorts of reasons. They are easy to replace though. Yours should

definitely be replaced. Could have been that the previous owner let the bolt close on

something hard and didn't realize that the extractor had been moved back. It could be

that the barrel alignment is off just enough to catch the extractor edge and eventually

caused it/forced it to go in further after repeated firings (check the leading edge of the

extractor to see if there is significant wear-the bluing should be worn if it is).

 

As far as going back into the receiver chamber the bolt face is supposed to stop just at the outside edge of the bolt cylinder hole into the internal chamber. Could be the recoil springs are worn enough to let it go back a little too far or it could be that because the extractor was already back too far that when it went inside the internal reciever chamber it got caught on that wall coming back. I would bet that was the reason---helluva interesting problem!

 

So: Two recommendations; 1. replace your extractor 2. Replace all three springs! That

will almost certainly solve all your problems assuming the barrel is not out of slight alignment.

 

The diagram you show is for the original auto-ordinance/Numrich/Kahr patent for the semi-auto which Kahr-Auto-Ordnance now manufactures.

 

I have never even seen an original 1927 which was an OPEN-bolt sem-auto before the democratic congress made it illegal. It was easily convertible back to full-auto and apparently shared internal parts in common with the Colt 1921 TSMG. Thus it is likely it did have a TSMG buffer. But I don't know for sure. However, you could ask that question on the TSMG forum on Machine Gun Boards and some of the "old-timers", who live and breath Thompson smg history would be very likely to tell you. But now that you've asked it I am curious too so I will certainly be doing research on it. There are several books on Thompson production and internals history as well as general history involving Thompsons. They are typically expensive books. But many members have those books while I don't--yet at least.

 

Now you said you have the Auto-Ordnance (West Hurley) 1927 Model. That model was only a semi-auto replica of the

1927 and has internals EXACTLY like that of the CURRENT production Kahr-Auto-Ordnance Thompson semi-autos--i.e. is still based on the original AO/Numrich SA patent. So no it won't have a buffer or use the buffer your picture shows. The two spring/two pilot pin recoil assembly or RECOIL GUIDE IS the buffer on that design.

 

Just for fun brother find and post the serial number on your West Hurley so we can look it up and see how old it is. Members here love knowing that stuff.

Edited February 12, 2013 by T Hound

[CTS]

Serial number is 1629P. It's an A5. Looking at other S/N's it appears to be a 1979.

 

This is the odd thing- not only is the extractor not broken, it's not even bent. It still has the inward curve to it. The only thing I notice is that the tab on the underside that keeps it in place appears to have one corner that looks like it was touched on a grinder. There's no way I would not replace it though.

 

On the bolt, it's going much further back than you describe. It retracts past the opening and into the rear cavity by about an eighth or three-sixteenths. I don't see how this would be a problem as, like I wrote earlier, I can't fathom how the extractor would move outward that far. (even though it did) At the same time, I see no reason for it to travel that far and that means there's plenty of room for a buffer pad. On the springs, this thing appears to have been very sparsely used. Maybe a hundred rounds, if that. So that probably eliminates springs. In fact, if the springs were any heavier, firing this thing would be a two man operation. Plus, aren't lighter springs a recommended approach?

 

I suppose I can write this one off to a freak occurrence- and maybe a mis-ground tab on the extractor. And extractors aren't that expensive. And now that I have a tool and a technique, if it happens again it's not a big deal. The biggest concern is damaging the bolt.

 

Time to add a brass hammer and a pin punch to the range bag.

[T Hound]

Serial number is 1629P. It's an A5. Looking at other S/N's it appears to be a 1979.

 

This is the odd thing- not only is the extractor not broken, it's not even bent. It still has the inward curve to it. The only thing I notice is that the tab on the underside that keeps it in place appears to have one corner that looks like it was touched on a grinder. There's no way I would not replace it though.

 

On the bolt, it's going much further back than you describe. It retracts past the opening and into the rear cavity by about an eighth or three-sixteenths. I don't see how this would be a problem as, like I wrote earlier, I can't fathom how the extractor would move outward that far. (even though it did)

.

 

1979? Okay, so then it is about 33 years old. If the springs have not been replaced over that time period then they may well have compressed enough to give you the effect you are describing. That is why gunsmiths tell us to unload our magazines so that the springs last longer and don't compress permanently. You would not necessarily "feel" this on pulling back the bolt and springs since they are still resisting you and have only so much length that they can go.

 

Given what you said above about the extractor having no marks this is starting to look like a likely scenario. The springs wouldn't have to compress by much to cause that problem. But then again I have never heard of lighter springs being an issue so it may be a combination of factors--the perfect storm so to speak. If so then it is a cautionary tale for anyone

putting in weaker springs.

 

As for the extractor, I thought of something else since last night. Hitting the wall that separates the magazine chamber and the receiver bolt chamber could have done the trick of pushing the extractor back into the bolt. going back like that could have also caused the extractor to be pushed back when it hit the wall every so slightly over repeated firings or it may have been all at once due to the extractor being loose. The extractor may have been replaced before and the guy dremeled or ground it thinking that's what he needed to do to get it in the slot--because it is a little tough to shove in a new one. Tough

and tight fitting which is the way it is supposed to be. Like the barrel it could be that the diameter of the hole that the bolt comes through is out of specification and thus causing small strikes on the extractor. But the fact that you found no marks is puzzling. You didn't even find any on the forward most business end of the extractor? That is curious. It would be great if you post a picture of it and your homemade tool for getting it out once you replace it.

 

I still think that changing both the extractor AND the springs is a must. But check both the barrel chamber edges and the bolt hole edges (inside the bolt recess) for wear too.

Edited February 12, 2013 by T Hound

[CTS]

The face in front of the extractor's claw is still blued and a little shiny on the part that pops over the cartridge base. It fits very tight in the bolt- no different than the spare I have. The spot on the retention tab doesn't look deliberate- it's just one corner and maybe .005".

 

I put the bolt back in and have been moving it incrementally, looking for anything and I still see nothing. There is a groove cut in the receiver where the extractor area of the bolt passes through the "block". Lots of clearance and no burrs.

 

I PM'ed the gentleman that sells the buffer and spring kits. I haven't heard back yet, but I'm going to give that a try. Since I have to order pins and ejectors, I'm going to order a new set of stock weight springs as well. I'll play with the variables and see where it goes. Either it was a freak occurrence and won't ever happen again, or it will continue until something breaks and I find out what it is. I'd prefer the former. If it's the latter, I'll report back.

 

Is there a better source for these parts than Kahr, or "better" parts available?

 

The "tool" was pretty simple. I took a small flat blade screwdriver and gently bent a curve into the 1st inch of the blade. I ground the inside to provide clearance. Looking at the bolt in the receiver, the extractor sits at about 11 o'clock. This went around the bolt and under the stuck extractor. I was able to slip in between the retention tab and the extractor hook. I tied the bolt back all the way, wrapping cord around the rear site and the bolt handle and positioned the barreled receiver muzzle down on a pad. Gripping the receiver in my left hand, I positioned the screwdriver and wedged it in. I held it between my 3rd and 4th finger and positioned a punch driving downward between my index and middle finger. It took a couple good whacks to pop the extractor back into position. It would have been much easier with a helping hand.

 

I'll try to get a pic tonight. I Googled repeatedly and found no reference to this ever happening with a Thompson.

Edited February 12, 2013 by CTS

[T Hound]

Regardless, I believe it has to be one of those scenarios even if no abrasion is showing--although the shiny

part on the claw might be it. The most likely scenario since you found no obvious abrasions is that the bolt

went past the wall and upon return the claw of the extractor was somehow out far enough to catch the inside

wall and thus push back the entire extractor. It may be that the bolt came back far enough for IT to get off

track! If that is the case then it would explain why the extractor doesn't show any wear. In that case it would

simply have been the bolt coming back to far and not tracking back straight when it returned. It would definitely

have had to clear the entire hole and go completely into the bolt cavity to do that! But then again, that is

what you said! We may have our culprit now.

 

Numrich also has semi-auto parts listed as a separate model among the TSMG models. Just look

up Thompson parts on their site--url: www.gunpartscorp.com/ But they are usually not new parts.

 

Considering also what you said about putting easy springs in I understand that the kit also requires

a urethane buffer be inserted behind the recoil guide in order to absorb the extra recoil produced. I

had forgotten about that, but I doubt the TSMG buffer is thin enough for that purpose if that is what you intended.

 

Pictures would be great!

Edited February 12, 2013 by T Hound

[CTS]

Bolt in receiver

 

"Special tool"

 

Extractor position when jammed

 

Note: Rounded corner on extractor

[T Hound]

Okay. Good pictures. I definitely see signs of "blunt force trauma" or impact on the

extractor claw. Is the bolt in the position that it is going all the way back too? If it is

then I am even more convinced that the bolt is probably the reason this happened.

Something is allowing the bolt to come back past the wall and upon return moved

ever so slightly out of line but enough for the extractor to hit the wall and be

moved back. That is your most likely scenario. So replace the extractor and

replace the springs. Then make sure it doesn't come back past the edge of the

wall.

 

John

Edited February 13, 2013 by T Hound

[CTS]

The position of the bolt in the receiver as shown in the first photo is the bolt with the recoil spring guide installed and retracted all the way. Where you see it now is without any springs, but I put springs in and the travel is the same. If it weren't, the springs would be damaged if they coil-bound before the bolt contacted the guide in its most rearward position. So if I'm not missing any parts, and as you say the bolt shouldn't be retracting that far, what am I missing?

[T Hound]

CST that I have seen so far, I don't think you are missing any parts. The problem is that the springs are allowing the bolt to go all the way into the bolt recess. When I pull back my Kahr Thompson I can't get the bolt to go all the way in like that and I am not weak. These springs are probably around 30 years old or older judging from your Thompson. Like I said before if they spent that entire time being under tension then likely they deformed over time enough to allow the condition we see now. So nothing is missing, but the springs need to be replaced. But to be sure here is a list of the receiver group parts for the Numrich/Kahr Thompson semi-auto patent:

LIST:

Bolt

recoil guide

2 recoil springs

firing pin pilot

firing pin spring (the big spring that goes on the pilot)

hammer (looks like a thick pin/cylinder)

Cocking handle

firing pin

extractor

3 bolt pins (2 for limiting the firing pin and 1 in the bolt cylinder)

 

That is all the parts associated with the cycling of the bolt except the ejector which, as you know, is

in the same chamber with the magazine.

 

I noticed something insteresting with your receiver. I looks to be to have been modified although I have

never seen the inside of a West Harley. But my understanding is that they should look the same as the

current Kahr Thompsons since they are the same patent. It would be great, if you could, if you could post

more pictures of the inside including the offending wall and the outside of your thompson. Then we might

know for sure if the last owner modified it somehow.

Edited February 13, 2013 by T Hound

[CTS]

 

 

This is the bolt in place and retracted and then completely assembled. I can pull the bolt as far back when fully assembled as shown without the springs.

 

I would think that if the design relied on spring stack to limit travel, the springs wouldn't last long at all. It would quickly deform the coils.

 

Also, the springs have very little compression on them with the bolt closed. I've worked on racing engines for decades and I've always pulled rocker arms for long layups for the reason you cite. I've never seen a spring lose strength unless stored in compression. Plus, these springs are relatively linear in load resistance. In other words, they take about the same effort to compress through virtually all of their travel. So new springs will compress just the same as these, given that their minimum compressed length is less than the clearance in the travel path. The net of this is I can't imagine the design relies on the spring to be the limiter of maximum travel. I'm curious about your observation that something looks "different" in here. I'm interested to know if these new pics show you anything.

 

I have a friend that has a Kahr. I may have to go and borrow it tomorrow and take a peek inside.

[T Hound]

Okay, first I should clear up an inaccuracy which I already corrected in my last post. The semi-auto has only one

firing pin spring and it is the big spring in back of the firing pin and none in the bolt cylinder like it has in the

TSMG. I wrote otherwise, confused with the TSMG system, and a minute later realized my error as I was leaving

the house to pick-up my daughter--couldn't correct it in time! I don't claim to be perfect brother. But I try to be accurate.(LOL)

 

Yeah, it looks like some modification in the form of widening has been done at the front of the bolt chamber. I would

have to examine it closely to be for sure. But it looks like there is slight asymmetry there.

 

As for the problem with the extractor:

Try this: Wiggle the front of your bolt (with the springs out and it all the way inside the bolt recess/chamber and see if it wiggles slightly at the bolt hole. In the picture it looks fairly tight so my theory is looking a little weak--at least to me.

If it doesn't wiggle enough to have caused the extractor bang-up then we still have a mystery.

Another experiment: Move the bolt toward the bolt hole and wiggle it or try to push it toward the side with the

extractor as you move it to the bolt hole. If it strikes the side of the bolt hole before entering or is stopped by it then that is strong evidence that the bolt "wiggling" or straying off track was probably the problem.

Edited February 13, 2013 by T Hound

[CTS]

Bolt is 1.046 and bolt cavity is 1.057 so 0.011 clearance cold. Lateral movement on the bolt face is very small. Clearance for the extractor is quite large through the groove broached in the bore of the receiver. The bolt moves freely when forcibly skewed and there's a moderate radius on the inside of the hole that the bolt passes through. If there's been any modification done inside, it's not apparent. All the machining marks are consistent and it has very little bluing scuffing. It's very unlikely that it's not the original finish based on appearance.

 

I've looked at this thing from every conceivable angle and tried to force the extractor to do what it did. I have had no success in duplicating the problem. The only thing I can figure is that the extractor is down on spring tension. I reinstalled it in the bolt and laid it next to the spare. Doing the highly-scientific "push on it with my finger" test, the one that jammed doesn't feel as strong.

 

I ordered several extractors so I'm going to try that. I also have some high-durometer Sorbothane on the way and am going to experiment with springs. i contacted Deerslayer and he's no longer selling his spring/buffer kit. I know I'll piss away $80 worth of time but I have a tough time coughing up that much for 30 cents worth f plastic and $8 worth of springs.

Edited February 13, 2013 by CTS