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Bob, Excellent post but I have to disagree. I do believe saw cutting firearm receivers, including machine guns, was an approved ATF method in the past. If not officially approved via a memorandum or poster, saw cutting was certainly an acceptable method condoned by ATF for many years. I remember during the Cox era that many unregistered or what are now known as Form 10 Thompson guns were found in the inventories of police departments. Dealers would still trade for these guns to obtain the parts. The usual method of receiver destruction was to saw cut the center section of the Thompson receiver with two cuts to the right and left of the serial number area. This left the Thompson receiver in 4 pieces but more importantly preserved the rear Lyman sight and the barrel, grip mount and ejector. I recall Ohio Ordnance had for sale at the Houston Astrohall show in the mid-1980s several very well-used Model of 1921s part kits with saw cut receivers. I asked where these parts kits came from and was told Mexico. The price was around $1000 a kit. When attending gun shows during that era you had to watch your step or you would trip over the numerous saw cut STEN parts kit - for about $60 apiece. My interest is two-fold: I want to know when the change from saw cut to touch cut occurred at ATF with guns in the USA. I want to give the Internet experts pause from saying all saw cut machine gun receivers in circulation today must be torch cut to be legal - unless there is some directive, rule, regulation or law that states this. If one of those Colt parts kits from Ohio Ordnance was still possessed today by the original purchaser, I don't believe the kit would be illegal. I know the kits would be much more expensive and the receiver pieces very valuable to a someone who can legally manufacture Post Sample machine guns. I don't like it when the first response to anything is destruction. Yes, sometimes necessary, but always understand the reasoning why. For example, (and a big if) what if the guy selling the saw cut Russian submachine kits on gunbroker had possessed all these kits since the early 1980s when destruction by saw cutting was the norm. Why are the kits illegal today? Was it the number of kits? One kit would be OK, but 90 kits are now illegal. I just want to understand why.

Have you tried Greg Fox: I bought a Drum carrier case from him and could not recommend him enough for the quality of work, a true craftsman.

I have held on to these for years. Time to pass them on lots of interesting reading that most of you new collectors have not seen. Make a $50 donation to the board. I pay the shipping.

Sold let me know where to send the $50

Mr. Kucer put a lot of work into this 1:3 Thompson. It is fully functionable with firing pin, oil bottle, engraving, trigger group, adjustable Lyman, bliss lock. it's all there. The drum mag is also fully functional.

As your rounds are being fed into the chamber, they have to be aligned with it. That's easy when you are using a drum, as it feeds from one centrally-located position and the round goes straight ahead. When you use a stick magazine, the round is being fed from off to the left or off to the right and it has to be guided to the center in order to slide into the chamber. The Thompson solves this problem with a long gentle feed ramp in the front of the receiver, which does a good job of guiding the front of the cartridge towards the chamber. Many of the posters here have described how they have great success with cast bullets, semi wadcutters and other things that the US military never thought of stuffing into a Thompson. Your problem seems to be that the back end of the cartridge isn't sliding towards the center so that the whole thing is properly aligned for insertion and ready to be shoved into the chamber. This causes the slightly "bent" casings, as they are trying to go around a slight corner but something is stopping them. You say that changing out the bolt apparently solved the problem, so I would carefully examine the front of the bolt for any damage, rough spot or burr that might cause the rear end of a cartridge to hang up and not slide to the side. FWIW

I have encountered this before. Is this a gun you have had and it always worked until now? And now suddenly this is happening? Or is this a gun you just got that never worked? First thing is to get some dummy cartridges so you can check/test indoors without having to go to the range. If don’t have any I can send you some - let me know, First thing - put TWO rounds in the mags to see if you get the jam when the cartridges feed from the other side as well. If the gun feeds from the other side ok, it’s the mags, Also, take the trigger frame off and the recoil spring and buffer pilot out. Put the frame back and feed the cartridges by decisively slamming the bolt shut by hand. If the gun now feeds it’s the recoil spring is too weak and the cartridges are jumping free of the mag lips and hitting the side of the mouth of the chamber where they get hit by the bolt. Obviously you need the dummy cartridges to do this. Bob

Check the mag catch and assure it is not sloppy or holding the mag in an odd/ misaligned position.

Robert Henley, Notice how no one has jumped in with an explanation. I was of the opinion (and only an opinion, not fact) that the touch cut receiver and barrel requirements having to displace so much metal was for firearms imported from outside the USA. The recent Royal Tiger Imports are a great example. I am also thinking this was a fairly recent requirement and if not followed, importation would be denied. Destruction is never my first choice, especially when I don't know all the facts. Same with finding a Thompson someone's grandfather allegedly brought back from World War II. If it is still with the family and has been with the family for many years, take the time to hunt for registration paperwork. There is always a chance it was registered, especially Amnesty Registered in 1968. If it is a "dewat," there is also a good chance it was sold on a Form 5 years ago by a number of vendors. For example, Poulin Auction recently sold an early Savage Thompson parts kit that was registered on a Form 5 in 1964. How do I know this. The serial number is listed in my latest book, A Thompson Compendium. My guess is the original owner died and some machine gun expert told the family that the gun was illegal and had to be destroyed. Based on my research this Savage was a Savage Commercial Thompson with an excellent pedigree. Nothing like getting in a hurry and cutting up a 30K Thompson submachine gun. All this said, destruction may be the final outcome - but do not rush the process, especially if a surviving spouse and/or executor is involved. If it turns out to be unregistered, i.e., contraband, another option is to see if the local police department would want it, especially a larger city with a police museum. ATF just wants it with a lawful owner, not floating around in commerce.

When I recently inherited this rifle from a dearly departed friends wife, (1976 WH 27A1) it was very messed up inside, barrel plugged and altered in a failed attempt to be an open bolt. I brought it home in pieces. It didn't work at all. Even the back of the bolt was ground at an angle? After figuring out the pieces were unavailable, I almost decided "wall hangar" but borrowed a Kahr 27A5 pistol from a friend and began to copy his parts, re-weld / repair and re create all my parts inside to make a legit, functioning rifle. I needed to know a lot of dimensions, spring guide length, hammer and sear and bolt dimensions, etc... I'm a metal fabricator and machinist by trade, not a gunsmith. There is a big difference in a WH and Kahr. (no mixing of the fire control parts that I can tell. You use one system or the other.) It took a fair amount of welding and machining but was a fun winter project and the final results make me happy. The Kahr firing pin and bolt is way different. ( I believe the modern way of a hole in the bolt face instead of a rectangle is a better idea) BUT: I wanted it back to usable condition as it was designed. as I stated in another post: the firing pin (sear hook) needs to be .120 out of the bolt bottom according sliding a depth micrometer the travel of the pin in the lower assembly. I tried that .120 with mixed results but not working consistently. WELL: I didnt account for all the extra clearances when you stack the whole assembly together (oops, bolt slop, upper to lower slop etc.) So, I welded to the sear hook portion and began to test fit. Turns out it needed an extra .025 to work without fail. So, I created another pin from scratch with all the proper dimensions from 4130 chrome moly and hardened the sear hook and pin area. quick bottle blue and call it good. all happy now and have a few spares. I created a 3D model of the final result and can now cut these on the CNC mill if ever needed. So, the R&D was enjoyable, testing: FUN, and finished result: makes me very happy. DeerSlayer Dan sent me an original barrel which I then "aged to match" and installed. Now it is exactly like what I want. and: it feels good to have saved one from the scrap heap. As a bonus, it's accurate as anyone could ask for. that's 10 rounds in the yellow from 60'. Even the 3rd hand tool is different between the two. I borrowed the Kahr but it would not fit the older WH. I made a quick 3D model and cut this one on the mill but here's a shot if you need the dimensions. Thanks guys for your guidance and helpful replies.

You should have him bring it to the show in April, lot of experts will be able to view it in person, give their assessment of its current shape and alternative routes towards restoration.

The plaque is from Mike Kline’s estate. He is still caring for these guns. Tracie

Im betting you will be hearing from others before long. Since you obviously have the talents, maybe you can turn them toward making a “ball-style” replacement cocking handle instead of that dang cheese grater. Nice work! Timmy

A very good point. I always put a Tile or Airtag in every piece of luggage. A friend of mine is a serious Sporting Clays shooter. Had a very expensive shotgun stolen out of his truck in his front driveway in the North bay area in California. Long thought lost, but he had a Tile in the case. Tile is older technology and requires a specific app on the phone to ping it, unlike Airtag which uses every iphone in existence. 9 months later, he gets a ping on the Tile out in the central valley of California. Calls the local sheriff. They raid the place, find a ratty trailer full of stolen goods, assorted perps and my friends shotgun unmolested.

I understand how the State of Maryland police can associate a Maryland resident and gunowner with the Maryland license plate on their registered vehicle. What I don't understand is how the state or local Police can associate a gun owner driving a car registered in a different state. Given the reputation for states like Maryland, New York, New Jersey, etc., it is probably good advice to limit one's exposure in these states when traveling. That said, I am not going to allow their lack of constitutional awareness to limit my travels in this great country. We are going to have a great time at the Show & Shoot!

I've had a very busy week, and have not been able to spend much time here at all. It appears there were some feathers ruffled, and I hope everyone will step back and take a deep breath. We're here to talk about Thompsons. This is a civil, friendly forum. There are many experts here, and it's a wealth of information. That being said, attending either of the shows brings benefits to Thompson enthusiasts that pale when compared to an online forum. I encourage attendance at either. Let's move forward, be friendly and civil, and keep the Thompson history alive. David Albert dalbert@sturmgewehr.com

Some Friday humor ... especially for those of us enduring ATF purgatory! 🤪

The British subguns of WWII and after had a specially designed chamber that would digest anything resembling a 9mm Para. Does anyone know of a source for a reamer that matches those dimensions as opposed to the standard SAAMI/CIP dimensions?

I had seen that M1928A1 with the three matched saw cut pieces. Back in the day, 1950's-1960's there was no epoxy. But 60 years later there are a variety of epoxies - "Plastic Steel" comes to mind. If these receiver pieces were glued together using Plastic Steel without question you'd have a shootable gun/receiver. Maybe not for long, but it would work/shoot. Back when I was working on my full auto blank gun I had the opportunity to meet IN PERSON (good luck today) with the then head of the ATF Technical Services Branch to discuss my design. That early model of my gun had an aluminum receiver and a plastic bolt with a steel head. The idea being that it would be OK for blanks but that the plastic bolt would shatter into pieces if live ammo was fired. The ATF guy (and he was very nice about it) said this design was a NO-GO because you could still fire one shot even if the gun/bolt then broke. So using that mentality this saw cut M1928A1 on GB is trouble. But we don't know what will happen. Does the ATF go after the guy? They can get his name and address (and also the guy that sold it) in seconds from GB. Did they not notice? Do they not care? Do they care, but they think their limited resources would be better spent going after a guy selling dozens of 80% Glocks or Polymer 80% at a gun show? And what does the buyer do with this? Maybe he bought it for the parts as a parts set and has no interest in making a gun? Once again maybe 40-50 years ago i remember reading about a case the ATF brought against a guy pertaining to "having a set of parts from which a firearm can be assembled" and the defense went down the road that for the defendant to complete/finish the gun would require XX hours and machining tools and equipment which would cost XX,XXX dollars and I believe the guy got off. Who knows where this will end up. In another thread I mentioned my skepticism about being able to 3D print a M1928A1 Thompson receiver because of the square thread for the barrel, the trigger frame rails, and the angle cuts for the bronze lock. But I have no doubt an M1/M1A1 Thompson receiver could be 3D printed and fitted with a barrel and trigger frame and be a working gun. So, where are you at risk? Would having a 3D printer and a 3D model to print be enough even though you have not actually printed anything? No different than the guy who did not yet finish/build his saw cut project. I won't hold my breath but it would be nice if they were sensible about this. Long ago NRA proposed that for a gun to be considered a firearm, it would have to actually be a firearm. Not a set of parts requiring machining and assembly - which is different than parts themselves which need only be assembled - the old M1/M2 Carbine situation where all that is needed is hand assembly to go from semi to full auto. If you are driving down the road with a case of beer in the back you do not get arrested for drunk driving because you have in your car "a set of materials from which drunk driving can be assembled". When you are driving down the road in your Corvette or Porsche that will do 180MPH you don't get arrested for speeding unless...you are actually speeding. Not because because you are in a car "from which you would be able to speed". Like I said, I won't hold my breath. Nobody want to be the next test case. Safety first. Bob

The correct screws for the sling swivels, both milled and stamped are slotted oval head screws. If you encounter flat head wood screws in your trove of parts the large flat head buttplate screw is easily identified, the small maybe 5/8" long flat head screw is for the M1928A1 buttplate at the top of the stock, and the medium maybe 1 1/4" flat head screw is the upper screw for the M1/M1A1 buttplate. Bob

And CW2's live a better life in the Army!

If saw cutting was acceptable when the cuts were made, it is today. There's no requirement to go back and destroy the receiver again.

Thanks for the forum. Paypal sent.

Hey Gene - I am sure you will get a lot of replies and info on this. One of my guidelines with all this is the value of a part combined with the difficulty, if any, of manufacture dictates the likelihood, if any, of the part being duplicated. For example, barrels are easy and there are a lot of aftermarket barrels out there, but there are also a lot of original barrels still out there as well. Doug Richardson made and sold very high quality thin-finned M1921 pattern barrels but he sold them as repros for people making display guns or for making your WH look like a Colt. He did not try to pass them off as original. He also worked a miracle and found 2 guys to make very accurate M1921 actuators but these he marked with a “R” and sold as repros. Doug’s friend and cohort Gordon (of serial number book fame) had some one piece milled ejectors made which were not marked and might have fooled some people, but every one I have seen (20+?) had little swirl marks on the underside from the endmills which are not present on originals and so are easy to ID once you know what to look for. But most other parts are not worth the trouble to make because there are still plenty out there. Yes, I know WH made investment cast sears, sear levers, and two piece buffer pilots, etc. but that was 40+ years ago and at that time for whatever reason original parts were not available. Most parts except for screws, pins, and springs are marked but the absence of a mark would not mean to me that the part was automatically fake. It could just be an error or oversight in manufacture, I would let the quality, appearance, and finish be the final guide. And it can get confusing. I see all the time original barrels where the Savage round S or Stevens square S is struck wrong and ends up looking like a U or an improperly struck small O. Also on M1 barrels the P indicating the barrel is proofed could be right side up or upside down when viewed from the receiver end, and an inch or more from the rear edge of the barrel where it contacts the receiver… Bob

Hi all, I told Dan that I would post a picture or two of his work on my M1927A1 with added GI parts. Butt/butt plate/hardware - USGI (gun show) Barrel - USGI from Recon (NIW) Grip mount - Recon (newly made) USGI Cutts, frame, rear sight, etc. - Omega (RIP) Horizontal and vertical for-ends, pistol grip - Dan Block Sling - repro Thanks Dan !! (belated)

What was your case number so I can get the transcripts of your trial

Sgt, I would recommend shooting several mags from your new MP40 to make sure it cycles correctly, etc. That will help you and John Andrewski so he can repair everything at one time as his wait list can be long at times. He completely reworked my MP40 Charlie Erb tube, which was way out of spec, and constantly malfunctioned. It now runs fantastic with zero malfunctions after 500 rounds. John also completely reworked my GM M16A1 rifle that was a reweld, and a complete mess. Now it looks like it came directly from the hydra-matic factory. You will not be disappointed if you have him work on your MP40.

The gunshop put in a new application after my first one was dissaproved. Because the shop was about to lose their license, the ATF priortized my paperwork. I picked up the Mp-40 today. i'm happy beyond measure. The next step is to find an Mp-40 technician. Anyone know of a good one, someone with a proven record? I'm not sure about the technical terms, but the tube is very loose. It and the magazine has a sloppy fit. Maybe this is normal. Anyone know for sure? I haven't fired it yet, but was told that everything is operational. Still, I'd like to have someone check it out.

Good pics! I'd like to see the face side of the butt plate, what shape it's in. (front side)

At minimum, I would bead blast away all the corrosion or it will keep going

katanafred, It looks like a nice butt stock. I would try and take the screw out of the butt plate, where the trap door is, and clean all the corrosion. I would then have it re-blued. The wood can be refinished also. Get a slide attachment and you will have a nice butt stock.

I have a very early Savage that belonged to a police department that had a Colt in their armory as well. My Savage had the Colt buttstock on it, I guess they were swapped at some point. To answer your question, the Colt (actually Remington) buttstock fits and works perfectly on my Savage. A Colt (Remington) buttstock is worth a small crapton of money. Thousands of dollars.

katanafred, Does this butt stock have a sling swivel? On the inside of the butt plate, look for the Remington "R" mark. If Colt's, it could have as many as three "R" marks. See the bottom right pictures on Page 168. That said, one "R" mark is enough. Post pictures of the numbering and we will let you know for sure. Also, look for the anchor mark at the front of the butt stock - see the bottom right picture on page 165. Depending on condition, I may find a local gunsmith that does bluing and have it polished and re-blued. If you go this route, don't forget the screw heads. Again, pictures will tell the story.

Although not in the U.S., I have two 20mm FLAKs. I live in Switzerland, there are quite some private owned 20mm guns around, since the swiss army sold them to collectors years ago. Currently they're not even treated as weapons by law, although fully functional. My two guns are a Model 1938 Waffenfabrik Bern, belt fed, and a Oerlikon Model 1953 with 50rds drum mag. Life rounds are quite rare and expensive. The big problem here is that there aren't any shooting ranges wich allow bigger than .50 BMG, and full auto shooting is also difficult here. So the two guns stand in my barn and wait...

Good morning all, It’s that time again, time to start planning for the upcoming summers events…. This year the Ohio State SubGun Match will be held June 10th at Tusco Rifle Club in Midvale Ohio. On the evening of June 9th, we will be having the night shoot portion again in which the shooter can run his or her suppressed weapon with NVG/IR or weapon mounted light. Classes will be as follows: Optic Iron Unlimited PCC Youth (shooting PCC only) Cost per class is $30 per class with each shooter able to run two classes. There will be four stages again this year and we will have food on site during the day of the match as well. Lodging:most shooters stay at the Hampton Inn in New Philadelphia. Lots of good food options close by there as well. 5320.20 information: Tusco Rifle Club 2132 Midvale Mine Rd Dennison Ohio 44621 Let me know you are coming so I can plan accordingly. Thanks, John

Have you tried Bob Bower at Philadelphia Ordnance? I believe he still makes high quality M1 dummy receivers. If you are an 07/02 he should have what you need to lawfully complete an M1. Email: philaord@aol.com

Ok….my pride is getting the better of my wallet, plus it’s for a good cause-$750

File your form 5320.20, if you are not a licensed firearms dealer. Then drive to the Hill residence at the speed limit. Keep the gun locked in your trunk or otherwise inaccessible. I would remove the bolt from the gun and keep it separate. There is no need to bypass any state you must pass through, that isn't NFA friendly. Hope to see you at the show.

Get a steel checkering file from brownells to finish the mag catch.

The TCA web page is now up and working. https://thetca.net/ Please see the membership application there as well as the 2023 show shoot application there too. Any further assistance you need, send me a PM and I will get you all set.

Reblued. You can see the multicolored hues, like the "Newton's rings" easily seen on a molecule thick layer of gasoline or oil on a puddle of water, and which are often present on the surface of reblued guns with slight residue of water dispersing oil, used after bluing to eliminate the water wash last process of bluing. Not to mention the obvious metal surface treatment and black oxide hot dip color, etc. The face of the rotor boss tells the tale of the condition of the drum prior to refinish. FWIW

Hey guys, Let's take a breath. I am sure the websites for both organizations could use a little work. Probably a lot of work. But let's stay happy! My Skeet Club world has taught me not to fuss at volunteers or potential future members. 😉 After all, the Show & Shoots along with this forum are supposed to be happy places! Attached is the information for the TCA Show and Shoot on April 28th and 29th. If you need anything else, send me a Private Message or contact me at: tkd5501@fuse.net. I hope to see everyone at the upcoming events. If you're not a member, include an extra $40 for one year's TCA membership and notate NEW MEMBER on the Show & Shoot registration form. Be sure and ask for a free table to display your collection. I guarantee a good time!

I have run my STEN's and other 9MM SMG's (MP-40, Beretta 1938/43, SWD-M11/9 ) on the IMI manufactured 9mm SMG ammo that was intended for the UZI SMG. It is truly an SMG load and not recommended for 9MM handguns. APEX sells it on GunBroker now (we sold a lot of it at KCR and SAR), there may be other sources. 9mm Submachine Gun Ammo 500 Rounds Israeli IMI MK5 STEN firing Israeli 9MM subgun ammo Richard

Jerry, I will be happy to assist you with market value of your drums. Pictures will help. You can either post them here or send them to me at roger.herbst@att.net. It appears you are referring to Tracie’s American Legend book. He has since published The Ultimate Thompson Book, and is working on volumes 3 and 4 of The Thompson Encyclopedia. In addition, last year I published my Thompson Submachine Gun Magazines book. The later books have more information and pics. Roger

I guess when 8 rounds of 30.06 isn't enough FU power, then the extra 8 of .45 ACP will be.

jojeep, If you search on Las Cruces Gunsmith, I believe you will find where this vendor has been discussed previously. The magazine catch in the picture is a commonly found cast Auto-Ordnance West Hurley part. Numrich Arms sold these magazine catches for many years.

Hi, That isn’t a real compensator. It is off of an MGC Replica Thompson.

No, this is what i was told 32 years ago. i did not feel the need to "document" anything because i was buying crates of parts and nobody back then cared about that sort of thing. I still have some frames marked " Number and NAC" probably from when they were building guns out of parts..........

Ironically despite our draconian gun laws in the UK you can pick up fully operational 30 (XXX) WW2 Thompson mags for as little as $8.00 US a piece. 20 round mags (XX) are harder to find but I’ve managed to find pretty much most of the mags produced including a Colt era ‘ Blank’ (front & side view) and a Colt era patent dated. With thanks to Richard 👍 Some have obviously seen plenty of life but given that they are so hard to find I’m happy to have them In my collection.

I am unaware of any WH disassembly videos, but here are a few photos of the internals of my WH 1927A1 sitting in their normal orientation on the pivot plate outside of the gun. The top view is what you would see if you looked down into the trigger frame when it is field stripped with the trigger on the right side of the photo, and the next photo is what it would look like if you could see through left side of the trigger frame, and just for good measure the last photo is from the bottom if you could see through the bottom of the trigger frame. I hope that this can be of some use to you.