GeeRam
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Posts posted by GeeRam
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Apparently AL markings are found on Indian State Force weapons, that is weapons not belonging to the Indian Army.
Another Indian Thompson then, after we deduced a few weeks ago, that my AO 1928A1 was probably Indian.
This time though, not Indian Army, but maybe Indian Police or other agency use?
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It. Has a 250,000 serial number range. It has a vertical foregrip with no sling swivel. A buttstock with a modified sling swivel
Australian-Lithgow rebuild mark A L 8 53 (I suspect those numbers MAY be a rebuild date (?) no proof just a hunch.
The 8 53 certainly fits with a typical British & Commonwealth way of marking the month and year for a FTR.
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The furniture industry was making the chests, not gunmakers, who were given tasks more suitable to their talents.
True.
But, Cogswell & Harrison were one of the contractors for making the standard WW2 W^D binoculars. They also did a small contract run for the FS fighting knives, and perhaps are better known for making many of the bespoke and secretive clandestine equipment for the SOE.
Agree with MkVII about the furniture industry making chests.
The gunmaker associated with SOE is Wilkes Bros of Soho, London. They are mentioned in the official history of the SOE Arms Section written in 1945.
No mention of Cogswell & Harrison. However, this firm did much worthwhile work in reconditioning and repairing thousands of small arms for the war effort.
Coswell & Harrison certainley made the special run of the McLacklin-Peskett Close Combat Weapon for the SOE, as well as a number of SOE derived 'push daggers' as examples exist in museum collections that are stamped with Cogswell & Harrison name.
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Interesting about the Cogswell & Harrison Cannon works address being Bollo Lane, Acton.....a road and area I used to know very well in my youth...!!
As I mentioned, while I know most people hear are only interested in original stuff, this guy in the UK make a not too bad reproduction of the cases, although the marks and stencilling may not be correct, as he probably thinks these boxes are US rather UK design.
See here....
http://www.wwiiboxes.co.uk/Weapon%20Related.htm
The only issue I can see from photo, will be trying to replace the clips used to secure the cleaning rod to the case lid?
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The furniture industry was making the chests, not gunmakers, who were given tasks more suitable to their talents.
Good point. Perhaps Coswell & Harrison obtained the chest complete with Thompson, post WW2, and they modified the gun to semi auto only. One of the Deactivated Thompsons in my collection is an early Model of 1928, which had been modified to semi auto only for civilian ownership and use, prior to the changes in the UK firearms act in 1988.
That's a very plausible reason indeed.
I can remember seeing a few s/a converted TSMG's for sale back in those heady pre-88 days in the UK.
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I bought this M1928A1 back in 1991/2 ish, and the dealer I bought it from said it was one of a batch that came out of an armoury disposal in India 6 months or so earlier, which included some early dated Bren’s as well.
Clearly it’s a British/Commonwealth issued gun, but other than AO acceptance mark, and these marks, the only other stamps are the sold out of service double arrow mark alongside a P on top of the barrel joint, as shown attached, but I’ve always wondered why there are no British marks though in all this time.
I’m aware of the D^D mark normally associated with Aussie stuff, and the N^Z mark for New Zealand as well etc.
I’ve just been doing a bit of digging, and found a post on another board about 5 years ago, from a Canadian asking about an identical mark to the butt stock posted above by Bridgeport28A1 above, stamped on the side of the stock of a Mannlicher 88/90 rifle he owns. He had been advised by another Canadian, that it was Indian. An Australian poster also suggested it was also a pre-1947 Indian acceptance mark, especially as a lot of Italian East African rifles captured by the British & Commonwealth armies in Ethiopia in 1941 were shipped to India. The mark is apparently typical of Indian Service markings.
So, the story told by the dealer nearly 30 years might have correct, but I’m still puzzled that my gun has no other markings showing British or other Commonwealth acceptance marks BEFORE it might have been handed over to the Indians, unless it was issued direct to an Indian Regt in Burma/Far East when new in WW2?
All alternative theories happily considered
Is you 1928A1 an Auto Ordnance built gun?
Yes, it is.
The Serif P proof mark on the barrel is the giveaway. Original Savage barrels are stamped with a Sans Serif P. By the way, your gun's sn is only 1850 away from My AO 28.
Wow......what's the odds on that...!!
What's that 2 days worth of production apart?
I've tried working out an approximation of build for mine, but not worked it out for the AO serials, any idea?
I think I've managed to work it out for my early Savage made 28 based on the serials, and monthly production figures, but not for the AO prefixed ones.
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The furniture industry was making the chests, not gunmakers, who were given tasks more suitable to their talents.
True.
But, Cogswell & Harrison were one of the contractors for making the standard WW2 W^D binoculars. They also did a small contract run for the FS fighting knives, and perhaps are better known for making many of the bespoke and secretive clandestine equipment for the SOE.
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In 1940, when the British placed their order for Thompson sub machine guns, the weapons were planned to be distributed as unit weapons. At that time, unit weapons, such as Vickers machine guns, Lewis and Bren light machine gun, were all stored in transit chests, as they are nobody's personal responsibility and were issued to whoever ‘signed for them’, from the units armoury, with a set of ancillaries, (magazines, cleaning rod / kit, spares), which were required for the weapons.
Therefore, the War department arranged contracts for the manufacture of transit chests designed specifically for the Thompson, and the weapon serial number was pencilled inside the lid.
The chests were designed to hold not only the Thompson gun, but also three 50 round ‘L’ drums, five stick magazines, cleaning rod and spare parts kit.
There were several contractors producing these chests, so perhaps one was Cogswell & Harrison, a total of 63,051 Thompson transit chests were produced.
Thompson Model of 1928’s, were initially shipped abroad to India and Australia etc. in these transit chests. Indeed, some found their way to Norway and were still in use with the Norwegian Navy until around 1985, as were their Thompson 1928’s.
Yep, done in the same way for the same reasons, as the No.15 chest for the No.4(T) sniper rifles. Even use the same hinge and fastener design.
Yes, maybe Coswell & Harrison, as you say were one of the contractors, as they likely would have been involved in WD work in some capacity during the war, much as Holland & Holland were with the contract for the conversions of the No.4(T) sniper rifles. (one of my other major interests, as I own a mint live firing 4(T) with full chest and all contents.
Are you aware there is a guy in the UK that remakes the Thompson chests to that W^D spec?
Interesting about the Norwegian Navy and still having Thompson that late. I also have a slight interest in that, as my live firing K98 is an ex-Norwegian Navy rifle, allocated to the KNM from captured German stock at the end of WW2. Mine is doubly rare as by chance it was also, an original German Kriegsmarine issue K98, made in Jan 1940, so likely went to to Norway in April 1940 with the Kriegsmarine during the invasion of Norway. Most of the captured K98's were re-barreled in the mid 1950's to 30-06 to make use of free 30-06 ammo stocks being handed out by the USA, but the KNM retained all their K98's in original 7.92x57.
Seems the KNM preferred hanging onto the good old stuff
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So how does one get India from EAS? Did the British Government issue Thompson to India troops?
Or is it stamped EAS indicating service in India with British troops?
What exactly the letters mean is still a bit of a mystery.
But the markings on your stock are exactly the same stamping as seen on this guys Mannlicher 88/90 rifle stock, and as typically as seen on captured Italian rifles sent to India by the British in 1941 for second line Indian use during the war.
Yes, Britain did issue Thompson's to Indian regiments fighting with the British Army in Italy, Africa and the Far East. They also likely handed over a lot of arms to India in 1947 on India's Independence that were sitting in British Army armouries when we pulled out.
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n file I have a picture of a TSMG transit chest which is marked as being shipped from Indian, (Karachi, which was India at the time), during WW2.
That's obviously been remade out of a much older crate, looking at the stencil on the side implying it was dispatched from Cogswell & Harrison Cannon works in West London....!
Cogswell & Harrison still exist, and they are London's oldest surviving gunmaker's, dating back to 1770.
https://www.cogswellandharrison.com/
Interesting
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I bought this M1928A1 back in 1991/2 ish, and the dealer I bought it from said it was one of a batch that came out of an armoury disposal in India 6 months or so earlier, which included some early dated Bren’s as well.
Clearly it’s a British/Commonwealth issued gun, but other than AO acceptance mark, and these marks, the only other stamps are the sold out of service double arrow mark alongside a P on top of the barrel joint, as shown attached, but I’ve always wondered why there are no British marks though in all this time.
I’m aware of the D^D mark normally associated with Aussie stuff, and the N^Z mark for New Zealand as well etc.
I’ve just been doing a bit of digging, and found a post on another board about 5 years ago, from a Canadian asking about an identical mark to the butt stock posted above by Bridgeport28A1 above, stamped on the side of the stock of a Mannlicher 88/90 rifle he owns. He had been advised by another Canadian, that it was Indian. An Australian poster also suggested it was also a pre-1947 Indian acceptance mark, especially as a lot of Italian East African rifles captured by the British & Commonwealth armies in Ethiopia in 1941 were shipped to India. The mark is apparently typical of Indian Service markings.
So, the story told by the dealer nearly 30 years might have correct, but I’m still puzzled that my gun has no other markings showing British or other Commonwealth acceptance marks BEFORE it might have been handed over to the Indians, unless it was issued direct to an Indian Regt in Burma/Far East when new in WW2?
All alternative theories happily considered
Is you 1928A1 an Auto Ordnance built gun?
Yes, it is.
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I bought this M1928A1 back in 1991/2 ish, and the dealer I bought it from said it was one of a batch that came out of an armoury disposal in India 6 months or so earlier, which included some early dated Bren’s as well.
Clearly it’s a British/Commonwealth issued gun, but other than AO acceptance mark, and these marks, the only other stamps are the sold out of service double arrow mark alongside a P on top of the barrel joint, as shown attached, but I’ve always wondered why there are no British marks though in all this time.
I’m aware of the D^D mark normally associated with Aussie stuff, and the N^Z mark for New Zealand as well etc.
I’ve just been doing a bit of digging, and found a post on another board about 5 years ago, from a Canadian asking about an identical mark to the butt stock posted above by Bridgeport28A1 above, stamped on the side of the stock of a Mannlicher 88/90 rifle he owns. He had been advised by another Canadian, that it was Indian. An Australian poster also suggested it was also a pre-1947 Indian acceptance mark, especially as a lot of Italian East African rifles captured by the British & Commonwealth armies in Ethiopia in 1941 were shipped to India. The mark is apparently typical of Indian Service markings.
So, the story told by the dealer nearly 30 years might have correct, but I’m still puzzled that my gun has no other markings showing British or other Commonwealth acceptance marks BEFORE it might have been handed over to the Indians, unless it was issued direct to an Indian Regt in Burma/Far East when new in WW2?
All alternative theories happily considered
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Sounds similar to mine, apart from mine being an AO made one, and mine doesn't have the REME stock mod, and having what I think is the Aussie marks.
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If the research done by the Combined Services Military Museum in Maldon, is correct, then there is a chance that the Thompson given by Churchill to the King is still in existence.
When the collection of arms held at the MOD Donnington was donated to the CSMM in Maldon nearly 10 years ago, the curator researched one of the Thompsons they received as part of the collection and it is one of two survivors from the first batch of 450 ordered in early 1940, and they there's enough evidence to say that one of them was the gun used by Churchill in the photographs as it was transported around the country with him at the time. Theres reason to believe that this was then given to the King and probably later returned to Downing Street when the STEN was presented, and probably why it then ended up in WD/MOD storage, and why it ended up gathering dust at Donnington.
This was the museum curator back in 2014 holding the gun believed to be the very Thompson.
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Arthur, FWIW. jim c 351 Long Time RKI Member Board Benefactor 3096 posts 0 warning points Gender:Male Location:Ohio Posted 24 December 2014 - 03:10 PM My wife recently bought a book titled "Their Finest Hour", by Winston S. Churchill. A 1949 publication. What follows is a paragraph , from this book as found on page 379 of book One. " In those days we viewed with stern and tranquil gaze the idea of going down fighting amid the ruins of Whitehall. His Majesty had a shooting-range made in the Buckingham Palace garden, at which he and other members of his family and his equerries practiced assiduously with pistol and tommy-guns. Presently I brought the King an American short-range carbine, from a number which had been sent to me. This was a very good weapon."
I would have presumed there would already have been a protection team provided for the Royal families protection, as well as the Guards Regt. stationed at Buckingham Palace, to ensure there safety and security.
The protection detachment team was more than that, in the case of a successful invasion by the Germans.
Look up "Coats Mission".
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I'll bet a box of donuts that one Savage 1928A1 and one US M1 carbine cal 30 is still in the possession of the Royal family.
Realizing that history repeats itself, why turn the guns in.
After all, there has only been one war to end all wars and that was WW1.
Next time I see the Queen I will ask her.
Jim C
It wouldn't have been an A1 in 1940, it would have been one of the 450 guns from the first British contract for Thompsons ordered in Feb 1940. Which fits with the just recently arrived from America mentioned earlier.
I very much suspect as such, it was handed back once the threat of invasion had passed by summer of 1941.
Being a Naval man, there is also the possibility that the machine carbine mentioned could have been a Navy issue Lanchester prior to the arrival of the mentioned M1 Carbine?
Oh, and if we were having this conversation 35 years ago, I could have asked her......well, I could have got my father to have asked as he served at Buckingham Palace and Windsor Castle between 1981 to 1986.
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The checkering on the foregrip of my AO prefix M1928A1.
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I am led to believe they were used by commonwealth forces, not just British army, during the Burma campaign to assist with grip in wet muddy jungle conditions
Stay safe
Richard
So not in the ETO?
Most unlikely...given outside of those guns issued to HG units, the predominate use of the Thompson by the British in the ETO was by the Commando's.
I've talked to many Bitish Army WW2 vets over the years back in the 80's and 90's, including Burma, ETO and North Africa, and it does seem to have been a Far East theatre of ops only in-field mod, from those that remembered seeing it.
My late production AO-prefix M1928A1 is a British/Commonwealth issue gun, with relocated sling swivels and checkering on the foregrip. From looking through the Iannamico books I think it was actually an Australian issued gun?
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Some of those pictured in the back row look fairly young. Was there a minimum age for Home Guard Service?
17, if I recall correctly.
Stay safe
Richard
Yes, my late father joined his works HG unit at 17 in September 1943, 6th Middlesex HG. He was an apprentice at the aircraft components factory that his father worked at, and they were both in the same HG unit. His father died on HG service a few month later in November 1943 after being injured in an ammunition explosion at the nearby anti-aircraft site that they had responsibility for guarding. Two female AA gunner's were killed in the same incident. My grandfather was hospitalised with his injures and while in hospital he contracted meningitis from another patient and died a few weeks later. It took my grandmother 5 years of battling the War Dept to gain a widows pension from the War Dept.
My father didn't fire a Thompson until over a year later after he joined the Army as a regular on 7th December 1944.
Thompson gun in Indian Service
in Thompson Submachine Gun Message Board
Posted
Looks like the guy in the second shot has forgotten something
