Doug Richardson
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Posts posted by Doug Richardson
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As far as more details regarding ordering the spare parts boxes or how they are marked or any other information about them, inquiries should be directed to Gordon Herigstad @ GordonColt@aol.com.
They are his product. I wish someone would teach him how to use this board. He can't seem to figure it out.
But I should not comment on that because I can't use a computer if Madalon (M.K.Witter) doesn't help me.
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Yes, the post has propagated itself due to Belize Internet system. This should be the last post. Do not know how to take the topic off other than this.
Doug
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I have, as many of you older timers on the board are aware, crusaded against fraud and deception in the Thompson field. My back is full of the proverbial arrows shot at me for my negative stand on the Numrich/Kahr guns being passed off by the respective companies who implied, if not actually claimed, to be successors in interest to the Auto-Ordnance Corporation founded by Col. Thompson, et al. A lot of people were deceived into believing they were buying genuine Thompson guns and drum magazines and those people paid the price. Others wanted to be deceived and were angry at me for making them admit to themselves that their Numrich/Kahr 27A1 was not a genuine Thompson 1928 or anything else genuine Thompson.
I did have a hand in the spare parts boxes as well as the “FBI†cleaning rods being offered by Gordon Herigstad. I provided drawings and manufacturing consultation. I was not a partner in the products. Gordon did as good a job getting those products made like the originals as was reasonably possible. I suggested to him that they be marked with an “H†(for Herigstad) to avoid any possible resale of the items as originals. Gordon felt that a real Thompson expert would be able to distinguish them from the originals. I agreed that might be true but I was not concerned as much about that person as I was for the majority of Thompson enthusiasts who would not be able to distinguish them from originals simply because they do not have the originals as a reference. Gordon accepted my argument and finally relented somewhat on the parts boxes by marking them, but in a very inconspicuous manner. He wanted to make the box as close to the original as possible and felt that adding an obvious mark would detract from that goal. I had to agree with that. In any case, it is not Gordon who attempted to deceive anyone. But, can everyone who transfers the item to the next guy be relied upon to be honest? I think not and past experience indicates that will not be the case. That is the dilemma.
And just who are those Thompson “experts†who are going to keep separating the fakes from the authentics? (I define “fake†as any Thompson item not made under contract with the real Auto-Ordnance Corporation but claimed to have been.) How many Thompson “experts†believe the WW2 guns were originally Parkerized? They were not. The legendary Curtis Earl was probably a man one would consider to be a Thompson “expertâ€. He bet me his entire Thompson gun collection that I was wrong when I told him that one of his Colt Navy guns had a Savage actuator in it. I could see that from 6 feet away. He tore the gun apart and found the Savage marked actuator in disbelief that he had been fooled. Tracie Hill has had first hand experience in being deceived by fakes with the likes of the “M1A2†and “1940†model guns he featured in his book. Both are fakes. So he is probably especially sensitive to this issue. I have seen a few fake items that would fool most any of the â€expertsâ€. There was a cut up Colt 1927 receiver for sale at a recent gun show. Everyone was in tears that a mint, rare Colt had been destroyed. But before one of the “experts†paid the high asking price, I told him the receiver was a fake. It was so well done, I wish I had made it. Does that make me an “expertâ€? I manufacture receivers so I ought to be an expert, at least on receivers. But there have been a few items I have examined that are a very close call regarding their authenticity. There were probably other fakes that I did not spot, so that disqualifies me. The other side of the coin is that after a while, the fakes seem to become the norm as the originals become more rare. Before long, the originals may be identified as the fakes by the “experts†who had never seen an original. Like the Hollywood guy who asked the country girl, after fondling her breasts: “What is wrong with your breasts?†“They are real.†She replied.
So what to do? My personal position is that any item that would command a substantially greater price if it were original, should be clearly marked. For example, I mark all my reproduction vertical foregrips with “R†for Richardson. I mark all my receivers similairly. I have decided to go back to my original placement of the “R†under the gripmount to eliminate the loss of the mark in the event the receiver is (LEGALLY) completed. The barrels I make pose another problem. I do not mark them because I do not know where I would do it since the barrels never end up in the same position on every gun. Therefore, I cannot mark them on the “bottomâ€. I have had a number of requests not to mark my receivers and foregrips. I am sure the requests were simply honest efforts by the gun owners to keep their guns as authentic looking as possible but what if honesty was not their intention? Anyway, I always mark them. It becomes less clear when the part is something like a spring (how does one mark that?), pin, screw etc. But does anyone really care about items like those? Probably not. But, the big items should be marked
At least we are being condemned for making things too good. Probably no one ever made that complaint about Numrich/Kahr.
P.S. My schedule has changed. I will be at my base in California during July. Hopefully, getting more caught up.
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Many people have been asking me when I will get back into Thompson production again. Unfortunately that has been in the hands of my eye doctors who told me that I would be seeing well six months ago and it did not happen. I still have one more eye operation to go which they claim will clear up some blurriness I have. However, the good news is that throughout Jan. my vision had improved to the point where I was able to get back in the shop and start making things. I now have some items back in stock and many more partially done. I am in Belize now through Mar. When I return, I intend to resume receiver production. Thanks for your patience and all the support that has been given me.
Doug
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My announcement that I would make original Thompson drawings available apparently pleased a lot of people. It was just an idea at the time but the enthusiastic response forced me into overtime. The project has been slightly modified and I am getting the drawings out fairly quickly by prioritizing the drawings requested. The updated offering policy is reproduced below.
THOMPSON MANUFACTURING DRAWINGS
As the supply of original Thompson parts diminishes and the prices go higher and higher for those that remain, the temptation to manufacture new ones increases. I have no problem with that as long as the newly made parts are as good or better than the originals. It seems, though, that everyone who makes parts claims their parts are “made to the original specifications/drawingsâ€. When I have made inquiries to the makers as to where they got the “original specifications/drawings†(I’m always searching for original Thompson engineering data.), I am invariably told that the “original specifications/drawings†were derived from studying an original part. You can’t have it both ways. Either you have the “original specifications/drawings†or you don’t. Copying an existing part is not manufacturing to the “original specifications/drawingsâ€. There is no way of knowing what the original design dimensions were or what limits were placed on manufacturing deviations (tolerances) by the engineers to assure that the parts are interchangeable within every gun. Manufacturing is an imprecise activity at best. Parts are never exactly in accordance with the original design dimensions. Therefore, copying an existing part, which already deviates from the original design dimensions, adds more manufacturing deviations, producing a part that may not fit in every gun.
Part of the solution to the problem of bad parts is to at least start with the original specifications/drawings. As many of you know, I have most every original specification/drawing for the WW2 U.S. Army Thompson guns as well as the tools, accessories, ammunition, etc. (I don’t have all the earlier drawings.) However, there are hundreds of them in various size formats and in varying conditions. And they are packed away in storage. Even though I have tried to help wanabe manufacturers in the past at no charge, the time involved is excessive, particularly when no great benefit to the Thompson world comes of it.
I have, therefore, decided to digitize and restore all the drawings, reduce them to 8 ½†x 11†prints and make them available to everyone. The only exceptions will be those full size drawings that I already offer in my catalog and drawings of parts that I either manufacture or intend to manufacture. The price is $20 per single drawing sheet postpaid.
Bear in mind that every part has its own drawing and if it is a part of a permanent assembly, there will be an assembly drawing. For example, there is no one drawing showing the manufacturing information for the pivot plate. There is an assembly drawing which shows all the parts in position and instructions as to how the parts are assembled. Then there is a drawing for the plate, another for the trigger axis and another for the sear axis. Material and heat treatment specifications for each part are on yet another drawing. However, rather than requiring two drawings for every part, I will add the material and heat treatment specifications information to the drawing at no additional charge.
You need to identify the exact drawing you want by number and name. If you do not know the number or are unsure as to the true part name, provide a COMPLETE description of the part and the model of the gun it goes on. I offer full size gun assembly drawings in my catalog that number and name every part in the gun, which should help. If you have any questions regarding interpreting the drawing after you receive it, I will try to help you.
A great deal of time and money has been expended to digitize and restore the drawings, which is copyrighted, not to mention the extraordinary effort to locate the drawings. So, please respect the copyright limitations. The drawings are for the purchaser’s use only. They are not to be copied for further distribution.
Make checks or money orders payable to M.K.Witter as usual and mail orders to: Doug Richardson, 2100 McReynolds Road, Malibu CA 90265.
Tel: 310-457-6400 Fax: 310-457-3010 E-M: ThompsonSMG@Mail.com
Because of the nature of this product there will be no refunds unless I make a mistake.
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I don’t get it. Granted, I am not of the computer generation. Madalon takes care of all the E-mail except for the occasions when I want to address some subject. Then she sets up the computer for me and I type (I’ve learned how to do that) what I want to say. I have no clue as to how to send it. She takes over at that point. What I don’t understand is why people don’t use their real names. My name is Doug Richardson. It is not “Tguy”, “21Nut”, MGCrazy”, “Blasterman”, or any other such alias I might think up. If you hear from me, you hear from Doug Richardson. There is no confusion. On the other hand, the use by others of code names causes me a lot of confusion. Someone will write me several E-mails about a subject and sign them “Chopperdude” or something and the call me or write me giving me their name as “John Williams” or something and then expect me to relate the two names and continue the discussion. Quite frankly, I rather like the Thompson enthusiasts. They all seem like interesting people. I like hearing what they have to say, but it makes it a lot more enjoyable to me when a real name is attached. After a while I get to know the various people. After all, we are sort of a family aren’t we. Except for each other, who would put up with us. So what’s the deal? Why the secrecy? Are people afraid of being criticized for what they say? I think everyone has something interesting to say and ideas to offer. Someone explain this to me. Signed: “Cybermoron” (formerly Doug Richardson)
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Thompsons with vertical foregrips fitted with sling swivels are probably 1928s, not 1928A1s. As clarified by other responders, this was not a factory fitment. What is interesting to me is that a barrel band with sling swivel located just forward of the vertical foregrip was offered by AO in 1922. I have never seen this configuration or even a picture of it. Has anyone?
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Yes, indeed, I offer a booklet on suppressing the Thompson. Actually, it talks about silencers in general and early Thompson silencers. But it is primarily a booklet on how to build a Thompson silencer. The history behind this booklet may be of interest.
Years ago when MAC 10s hit the scene, the law was that a silencer was not a silencer unless it was complete. MAC 10s were all threaded for a Sionics silencer which screwed onto the gun. The MAC 10/ Sionics silencer combo became very popular. This revived the interest in silencers. It seemed that everyone was cloning the Sionics silencer and trying to fit it to any thing that shoots. A real cottage industry developed of which I became a part. Some people were manufacturing the internal components and selling them as kits. Others, including me, were making the tubes. A person could actually go to a gun show and pick up every part which only needed to be screwed together to complete a silencer. And then there were others who made adaptors to enable the Sionics silencer to be fitted to various guns. I offered a short Thompson barrel that extended just beyond the vertical foregrip which was threaded for the Sionics silencer. It also had an optional sling mount which incorporated an adjustable (windage) front sight.
Two problems soon became evident: (1) Screwed on silencers tend to unscrew themselves during firing. (2) Large screwed on silencers are difficult to align with the barrel bore.
At this point I decided to design a silencer specifically for the Thompson. My design was based on the best two stage silencer designs in use. What was innovative was the incorporation of existing technology into the Thomson gun. I modified a Thompson barrel to a smaller diameter to increase the expansion chamber volume and machined on a step at the breach end to locate the back of the expansion chamber. The muzzle was threaded to accept a bushing which aligned the front of the expansion chamber with the bore and also provided the attachment for the bleed off chamber. This created a very rigid assembly with the maximum silencing in the shortest length. It only added 7” to the Thompson gun. This design eliminated the grip mount and front sight. The grip mount problem was solved by incorporating a grip mount on the bottom of the expansion tube. Since rotation of the expansion tube is possible before the silencer assembly is tightened, the sight can be adjusted for windage. This design did not modify the gun in any way, it simply replaced the barrel and grip mount.
How well did it work? The only noise was the bullet hitting and the cycling of the action.
I started manufacturing kits that had every part but one. By the strangest coincidence the missing part turned out to be a standard Sionics part made by many others.
As has been my experience with many of my products, it soon become illegal and I was forced out of business. The law was changed so that any part to a silencer is a silencer. That being the case, I wrote my suppressor book, documenting my design so that others with the proper license could make them. With so many people getting Class II manufacturing licenses and making guns from my display receivers, I believe that if a gun is being made, it can be made with the silencer as a single unit as far as the paperwork and tax is involved.
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I don’t want to use this Board for personal messages but so many people have called or otherwise inquired and used this Board to comment, that I feel in this case it is appropriate. As most of you know, I have not done well this past year on the Thompson stuff primarily because of my failed eyesight. There have been rumors that I will quit altogether. Fortunately, thanks to a cornea organ donor, a plastic implanted lens and the medical staff at Cedars-Sinai, three operations later, I can now see again. I was beginning to wonder if I would actually ever see well enough to make my Thompson products. I am not out of the woods yet. I still have stitches in my eye. But now it seems that by the end of the year I will have good vision. I will not be able to catch up over night but at least I will get back into production. Your patience and good wishes have greatly appreciated. Right now I’m on my way to Belize (Central America) but I plan on being back for the SAR show in Phoenix.
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Arthur
No they are not marked that they are made by me.
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In this day of ever increasing prices, the cost to me in quantity of my bore entry countersinks went to $175 each. Since I offer these in my catalog at $95, there was a problem. But sometimes things happen for the best. I re-designed the countersink and went to a small shop cutter grinder. The result is a better cutter AND the new price is $65. Those finished have already been sold, but I will have more very soon. (This cutter is used by those legally finishing my Display Receivers into working guns.)
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I now have in stock ready to ship all configurations of TSMG barrels, compensators and compensator sights.
Please contact me directly at: ThompsonSMG@mail.com.
Doug Richardson
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PK
Drawings are being scanned on large format scanners, computer restored (which is no small effort), and saved on discs.
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THOMPSON MANUFACTURING DRAWINGS
As the supply of original Thompson parts diminishes and the prices go higher and higher for those that remain, the temptation to manufacture new ones increases. I have no problem with that as long as the newly made parts are as good or better than the originals. It seems, though, that everyone who makes parts claims their parts are “made to the original specifications/drawings”. When I have made inquiries to the makers as to where they got the “original specifications/drawings” (I’m always searching for original Thompson engineering data.), I am invariably told that the “original specifications/drawings” were derived from studying an original part. You can’t have it both ways. Either you have the “original specifications/drawings” or you don’t. Copying an existing part is not manufacturing to the “original specifications/drawings”. There is no way of knowing what the original design dimensions were or what limits were placed on manufacturing deviations (tolerances) by the engineers to assure that the parts are interchangeable within every gun. Manufacturing is an imprecise activity at best. Parts are never exactly in accordance with the original design dimensions. Therefore, copying an existing part, which already deviates from the original design dimensions, adds more manufacturing deviations, producing a part that may not fit in every gun.
Part of the solution to the problem of bad parts is to at least start with the original specifications/drawings. As many of you know, I have every original specification/drawing for the WW2 U.S. Army Thompson guns. (I don’t have all the earlier drawings.) However, there are hundreds of them in various size formats and in varying conditions. And they are packed away in storage. Even though I have tried to help wanabe manufacturers in the past at no charge, the time involved is excessive, particularly when no great benefit to the Thompson world comes of it.
I have, therefore, decided to restore and digitize all the drawings and make them available to everyone. The only exceptions will be those full size drawings that I already offer and drawings of parts that I either manufacture or intend to manufacture. The price will be $20 per drawing including E-Mailing, Faxing or snail mailing. Drawings sent by Fax or snail mail will be 8 ½” x 11” computer printouts. Bear in mind that every part has its own drawing and if it is a part of a permanent assembly, there will be an assembly drawing. For example, there is no one drawing showing the manufacturing dimensions of the pivot plate. There is an assembly drawing which shows all the parts in position and instructions as to how the parts are assembled. Then there is a drawing for the plate, another for the trigger axis and another for the sear axis. You need to identify the exact drawing you want by number and name. If you do not know the number or are unsure as to the true part name, provide a COMPLETE description of the part and the model of the gun it goes on. I offer full size gun assembly drawings that number and name every part in the gun, which should help. If you have any questions regarding interpreting the drawing after you receive it, I will try to help you. Because of the nature of this product there will be no refunds unless I make a mistake.
Make checks or M.Os payable to M.K.Witter as usual and mail orders to: Doug Richardson, 2100 McReynolds Road, Malibu CA 90265. Tel: 310-457-6400, Fax: 310-457-3010, E/M: ThompsonSMG@Mail.com
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I have some of my TSMG "Display" receivers that did not make it completely through the manufacturing process because of some machining error. I generally sell useable sections of these for $150 to people working on some special Thompson project. Anyone interested should call me to find out if what I have will work for you.
Doug Richardson Tel: 310-457-6400 10am-10pm Calif. time
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As more responses come in regarding Colt receiver variations 1,2,3,4 & 5 and Colt trigger housing variations A, B, & C that I have previously identified, it becomes increasingly clear that my original belief that receivers were serialized at the beginning of the manufacturing process was wrong. (That is why we do the research instead of making up the “foney facts”.) It seems that Colt receivers and trigger housings must have been completely finished in the white with all markings except the serial numbers. Apparently, they were then selected to fit and serialized. It think it is safe to assume that the lowest number found on a receiver or trigger housing tells us when the change was initiated for that variation (unless an earlier made gun has had the receiver or trigger housing replaced) but does not preclude higher numbers being found on earlier variations of receivers.
Until more responses come in, the following Colt serial number ranges are estimated as follows:
Receivers
1st Variation: 41-1999
2nd Variation: 2000-4999
3rd Variation: 5000-9999
4th Variation: 10,000-13999
5th Variation: 14000-15040
Trigger Housings
A Variation: 41-2499
B Variation: 2500-2799
C Variation: 2800-15040
I must emphasize that these are roughly estimated ranges subject to refinement. It is not the highest number of a variation that is critical, it is the lowest. Please keep sending the information.
Thanks,
Doug
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I don’t monitor the Web, so it is only when someone alerts me to a posting that they believe should be called to my attention, am I aware of what’s being said. Recently Mr. Arthur Fliegenheimer made some observations about me which I feel I should respond to. Mr. Fliegenheimer’s comments were well taken and I am not offended or is this intended to be argumentative. Comparing me to the likes of John Martz and Michelangelo is flattering. But there does seem to be a lack of understanding regarding my situation which I should address so that I am criticized for my real faults of which I’m sure I have many.
As many of you know I am retired and I work on the Thompson stuff as a lifetime hobby. I did get way behind when I had to salvage a construction project in Central America after the contractor failed. That is mostly done although I go back and forth because that is my retirement home. I was just beginning to catch up on the Thompson stuff when I lost my vision. I started to make a new run of receivers but I had to stop because by the time I was finishing up the last batch of receivers I was no longer able to see well enough to continue on. I have been through hell with a cornea transplant, sick from medication, cataracts etc. I still have stitches in one eye and I cannot see very well with either eye. Since no one seems to be willing or able to do what I do, at least for what I charge, people will just have to be patient with me. I will recover my sight better than ever (they say) and I will get back to providing my products off the shelf, but it will take some time.
As for hiring a regular assistant, no one else seems to want to make Thompson parts for the joy of Thompson and I don’t charge enough for my products to afford regular help. There is not enough volume to keep a shop going unless I were to expand and give up retirement. Anyway, thanks to all my old friends who have been wishing me well and I apologize to those I have disappointed. It seems that Mother Nature hates old people who make Thompsons. For anyone interested, I do have two 1928 style semi-auto receivers left (no other receivers).
I am not just sitting around though. I do what I can. I have hired a part time assistant which is helping greatly.
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Thanks to all of you who have responded.
A lot of good information has been coming in. To date here are the high and low serial numbers reported for each receiver variation.
1. 41 (starting production number)—2498
2. 2664 - 2796
3. 5278 - 8978
4. 9314 - 13054
5. None reported – 15040 (last production number
I need many more responses to narrow these ranges as you can see. It is interesting that one previously believed range has proven to be in error.
The trigger housings numbers have proven to be all over the place. Naturally variation As are mostly low numbers but variations B & C are almost a mixed random pattern. Interestingly by 2878 and 2889 are Bs but 2885 is a C. 4394 is a C but 6053 is a B.
More data is needed. Please keep sending me information.
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Doug Richardson wants help: (Revision 1)
I have identified five 1921 Colt receiver variations and three Colt Trigger housings.
The receivers are:
#1: actuator slot with squared front end and “AUT-ORD-CO” bullet logo
#2: actuator slot with rounded front end and “AUT-ORD-CO” bullet logo
#3: actuator slot with rounded front end and “THOMPSON” bullet logo without “REG.
U.S. PAT. OFF.”
#4: actuator slot with rounded front end and “THOMPSON” bullet logo with “REG. U.S.
PAT. OFF.”
#5: actuator slot with rounded front end and “THOMPSON” bullet logo with “REG. U.S.
PAT. OFF.” and 1922 patent dates
The trigger housings are:
#A: “AUTOMATIC” & “SEMI-AUTOMATIC” pivot markings and fire/safe makings
with vertical arrows pointing downward
#B: “AUTOMATIC” & “SEMI-AUTOMATIC” pivot markings and fire/safe markings
with horizontal arrows pointing to front and rear
#C: “FULL AUTO.” & “SINGLE” pivot markings and fire/safe markings with horizontal
arrows pointing to front and rear
Therefore, to completely describe the configuration of a Thompson gun, it could be referred to as a “21 #xxxx 2B with vertical foregrip and ring sight” or “28 Navy #xxxxx 5C with horizontal forearm and compensator”, etc. I don’t know if this reduces or increases the confusion, but at least it is a start. Maybe we will all learn something with this.
It is my theory that the receivers were marked and serialized early in the manufacturing process and therefore will have progressive serial numbers establishing precise, in sequence, cutoffs for each of the five variations described above. It is also my theory that trigger housings were made without serial numbers. They were then placed in stock for selective fit to the receivers when they were finished. For that reason, the three variations of trigger housings will not necessarily correlate exactly to the receiver variations. Obviously, they will generally correlate because guns were being made continuously using the parts being made at the same time. The problem is, there are no records available to tell us at what serial number the changes occurred.
Please, all you guys lucky enough to have a Colt Thompson and even those who only have parts of one, let me know the serial number and the variation it applies to. If you care to include other info such as model marking other than 1921 (e.g. 1927, 1928, 1928 Navy, etc.) or other observations, that would be even more helpful.
Thanks, your help will be greatly appreciated.
TEL: 310-457-6400, FAX 310-457-3010, E/M: ThompsonSMG@mail.com
Report From Europe
in Thompson Submachine Gun Message Board
Posted
I was in Europe last week. I was shocked to see the variety of Thompson reproduction items, most of which were being passed off as original. Horrible vertical front grips and very nicely made web gear. I saw new slings marked “No-Bucklâ€.
I also saw nice WW2 style slings. I brought some of those back which I’m selling for $35. A big surplus dealer friend of mine got in a shipment of Belgium Army surplus stuff. In it were 1928 Recoil Spring Stripping Tools although he had no idea what they were. These are the tools shown in the British manuals. They are used to hold the recoil spring on the pilot when trying to reassemble the gun. They go into the hole near the front end of the 1928 pilot. I’m offering them for $15.
I also found some Thompson Spare Parts Bags (C59738) in unused new condition I’m selling for $15.
I didn’t bring any of these back back, but excellent condition 1928 TSMGs with finned barrel, plain buttstock and Lyman adjustable rear sight can be bought in deactivated condition by anyone for about $800. Deactivation consists of drilling a hole thru the gripmount, receiver and barrel chamber; inserting a pin and welding the pin to the gripmount. The bolt end is also cut off. A new barrel, gripmount and bolt and a little work results in a working gun with a small hole in the receiver which is completely hidden by the new barrel and bolt.