M1917 Watercooled Questions

[grenademan]

For the last 13 years I have been the organiser of a WW2 living history group portraying the American combat soldiers in

the ETO & MTO during WW2.

 

During the last year we have radically changed our display direction and we have been developing a very successful Pacific Theatre display, themed either around the events on Bataan/Corregidor or on Guadalcanal.

 

Both scenarios are almost unique over here in the UK and the initial positive response from fellow enthusiasts and the public has already led us to plan bigger, multi group scenarios for next year. More people, more weapons, more equipment & more vehicles - pooling resources to make a far bigger impact. We are fortunate here also, to have direct Japanese & Filipino involvement, which gives our display an unusual but authentic touch.

 

We have quite a large collection of original deactivated, ( I think your term might be 'de-milled') WW2 US small arms, appropriate to either scenario, from M1911 Colts through various models of the M1903, plus the M1917 & M1 rifles, M1928A1 Thompsons, B.A.R.s up to M1919 Brownings.

 

An M1917 water cooled Browning H.M.G. would be an ideal addition to our collection, but as you know far better than I, originals are scarce & expensive. We may have quite a large amount of money invested in period weapons, equipment & vehicles, but the purchase of a complete M1917 on a tripod with all it's kit is beyond any of us as individuals.

 

So, for better or worse, we have gone down the 'replica' route. We don't need to shoot. Our weapons are part of a historical scenario - a display where they are emplaced, mounted on vehicles, placed 'in context' or carried by individuals portraying the servicemen of the time.

 

We have a near full weight steel replica M1917 in build at the moment. The cradle & tripod will follow over the winter, (subject to us being able to collate enough reference material).

 

The MG itself is almost complete, save for small details & it is these which will make the project. Our aim is to make the replica look as convincing as possible at fairly close range and it is here that I wouldlike to ask the advice of forum members on various technical and historical details. I have a series of questions which, I hope, gentlemen, you might kindly answer when you have time.

 

 

 

Here we go:

 

First off, of course, is what exactly do we need as regards specific

cradle, tripod, steam chests, ammo boxes and such to create a complete & correct M1917 Browning assembly, appropriate for the December 1941 to October 1942 period, as used by the US Army, 31st IR (US) & 51st IR (PS), Philippines, or the 7th Marines & 164th IR, Guadalcanal?

 

I'm assuming we'd use an M1917 tripod, but the military seemed to use several types of cradle. Which would be correct?

 

Which model steam chest would be correct?

 

Ammunition boxes. We have a stack of the WW2 metal 30 cal cans for our M1919's, but only one original wooden box for the M1917. Typically, how many should we have to go with the M1917? Should the open 'in use' box be mounted on the cradle, to swing with the gun, or be placed on the ground? I've seen numerous photos recently of both options, using the wooden boxes.

 

How were the boxes attached to the cradle?

 

Also, to my uneducated eyes, there seem to be at least two types of

wooden ammo box. One with an angled cut out on the underside & one without. Which is correct? Were the boxes painted O.D. or were they bare timber? Did they carry any markings?

 

Was ammunition also issued to the M1917's in the same cans as those used by the M1919's?

 

Was tracer or AP used, or just ball? We have recently taken delivery of several cloth belts of inert .30 ball ammo from a US source & for

display purposes. These cloth belts are dark O.D. in colour with a brass eyelet on a tab at either end. Where the ammunition is 30 calibre, I'm not sure if the belts are the correct type. Could anyone please advise on this?

 

What markings did the M1917 carry on the side of the receiver?

 

Another thing that confuses me is the varied finish of the M1917's I

have seen on the web. What might be termed 'modern' restorations seem to be more often black - parkerised or blued, I'm not sure - with bright bronze & brasswork. Beautiful guns & every inch a credit to their proud owners. Nothing beats a lovingly restored vintage firearm, but I suspect that a wartime 'front line' finish might have been a little different. Older guns I have seen seem to be a bare steel finish (varied in itself, from part to part), with dulled brass & tarnished bronze. A few even seem to have the water jacket, tripod & cradle painted OD. I've also read recently that on some guns, the bronze ends to the water jacket were replaced by steel items. What would be correct?

 

The biggest help to us would be some dimensioned drawings. Photos are easy to find, although interpreting them is harder, and there are exploded diagrams of the tripod & such, with parts lists on the web, but dimensions of the major components - tripod legs, cradle side plates, details of the elevation gear, tripod locking handles, etc, would be an enormous help. Can you suggest a source for this information?

 

 

 

 

Any information and assistance that you might kindly supply would be gratefully received. We're trying to do the best we can with this

project & while we might not be able to create an exact reproduction, if we can produce something that says 'real' at very close range to just about everyone who looks, we'll be well pleased.

 

Thank you for your time gentlemen. I look forward to your replies.

 

Tim

[emmagee1917]

Whoa boy!! Big order here. I'll try my best. Can you get copies of Dolf Goldsmith's browning books ? Vol # 1 and 3 would do you a world of good. All these answers are for very early war period. Before the manufacturing might of the USA kicked in , most of the stuff in inventory of the small pre-war army was WW1 or reworked WW1 issue.

 

Tripod--WW1 1917 would be correct , but a M1917A1 tripod will prob'ly be easier to find and would be correct. Use the M1917A1 cradle with it.The tripod head , rear leg plate and rivits , azmith ring ,front pintle block , rear elev/windage body and thier knobs should be brass. Knobs should have finger grooves.

 

Water chest---M1918 or M1 perfered , M1A1 if all you can find.

 

Wood boxes---around 20 or so . Angled (so as to clear the old M1918 tripod ) was more common , but either was correct. Usually mounted on cradle , but did not have to be. Boxes mount in the left side "C" bracket , the grooves of the box fitting over the edges of the "C" until bottomed out. Boxes were OD green , no external writing , ( loaded in the field with whatever they had) , only mark was an internal ink-stamp of a bullet to remind you pointy-end-forward.

 

Metal boxes--M1 was used also , sat on the ground usually. It will mount to the tripod by opening and sliding the top edge above the latch into the square hole in the "C " bracket and pushing the hole in the latches long tounge over the little nub at the tripod's "C's" bottom edge. Not very stable. Any upwards bump and it would fall off. There was also a M1A1 can , slightly bigger and "blockier" that had a latch added to the latch end. This can caught the top edge like before , but the extra latch was raised and swung behind the lower edge and released to trap the box into the "C" hole.

 

Ammo---mostly ball at this time. If tracer added it was 4:1 ratio. Ap also used a little , also packed 4:1 with tracer. These were packed in white cloth belts , 250rd length , most with a brass feed tab at each end. If boxed , you can use a single tab belt as noone can see the inner bottom end.

 

Mfg.---at this time they had WW1 or reworked to 1917A1 standard WW1 guns. These were Colts , Remingtons, or Westinghouses.

 

Finish--at this time mostly blued steel and brass end caps. You could paint an all - steel one a dull brass , then slap a sloppy coat of OD paint over it , showing only the barest streaks of brass through it. I have a pic. of Marines heading for Guad. Island painting thier MGs and Tripods OD green with paint brushes on the decks of thier troop transport.

 

Dementions----the field manuals show basic dim. I think there are drawings avail. Check over on www.1919A4.com for a set.

 

Whooo---hope that helps. Chris

Edited October 6, 2009 by emmagee1917