Joe H
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Posts posted by Joe H
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Alright, alright. I know when I am licked. But at least I learned something new.
Thanks for the download Joe.
John
Hey John,
I just wanted jojeep to be able to sleep tonight
Joe
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Guys,
This should settle any confusion.
From the ATF NFA Handbook: (link below)
The ATF procedure for measuring barrel length is to measure from the closed bolt (or breech-face) to
the furthermost end of the barrel or permanently attached muzzle device. Permanent methods of
attachment include full-fusion gas or electric steel-seam welding, high-temperature (1100°F) silver
soldering, or blind pinning with the pin head welded over. Barrels are measured by inserting a dowel rod
into the barrel until the rod stops against the bolt or breech-face. The rod is then marked at the
furthermost end of the barrel or permanently attached muzzle device, withdrawn from the barrel, and
measured.
Joe
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I am now trying to figure out what to do with my parts 1928 parts kit, other than use the lower on my M1A1. I sure wish someone would just come out with an approved semi receiver kit, with whatever that entailed, even if you had to get the stamp for the short barrel.
Bill,
As T Hound noted, I doubt that will ever happen. IMO the economics are just not there both in cost and possible market especially with the current political climate. A few years ago I was in the same place you are, well not exactly, I didn't own a FA Thompson, but I had a 1928A1 parts kit. I wanted a "Historically Correct" Tommy as I am a WWII fan but not with the disposable income to afford a FA. I got a Form 1 SBR tax stamp and built a semi based on the N/K Kahr & Polston approvals using a Philly Ord receiver.
The semi builds fall generally into 2 categories, hammer fired & striker fired. The Polston is hammer fired and the Kahr is striker fired. Polston's design is patented but not worth copying since there are hammer fired designs that use a standard AR15 trigger/hammer group and are relatively easy to build and do not require machine tools but no blish locks or bolt oiler. My build is striker fired and requires some machining skill and the use of machine tools. If you are building on a ATF Form 1 you must do the work yourself.
Semi Thompson bottom line: Either buy a Kahr or build you own.
Joe
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Bill,
There is more to it than the .1" difference in the height of the receiver. The Kahr design is essentially a straight blowback design like the Thompson M1 whether it is the Kahr 1927A-1 (1928A1, 1921 copy) or the Kahr M1. The Kahr 1927A-1 lacks the blish locks (delayed blowback device) and bolt oiler that is present in the 1928A1 and it's civilian predecessor the Colt 1921 model. The FA / SEMI selector switch is not present in the Kahr Thompsons. The Kahr firing pin is also quite different from the original Thompson. A closed bolt is required by the ATF on any Thompson copy.
If you use Richardson's semi auto reciever you need all the Kahr semi auto parts. You will essentially have nothing more than a Kahr Thompson with a much better receiver but no more "historical significance".
Joe
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Z,
Very interesting letter and great post. Millions??? Any split? Kahr currently lists them at $7.00
http://www.auto-ordn...on-3RD-Hand.asp
For those who are interested in the 3rd hand development, the next generation "Hi End" 3rd hand modification was discussed here on this Board awhile back:
http://www.machinegu...olt++hold++back
Joe
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It is fairly obvious I have two problems. First, I have done everything except stand on my head, but the bolt will not lock back. Pull back and up. Pull back and down, Will not lock. I have to physically hold the bolt in full back position and try to insert the mag.
Thanks much for everyones input.
Scoot,
Problem #1 - If the gun and clip are working properly the bolt will never lock back unless 1) there is an empty clip in the gun or 2)you are pushing up on the trip lever shown on the left hand side of your pic #3 while you are pulling back the bolt.
Problem #2 - A clip will not lock in place. The hole in the mag is not properly formed. It should be oval, actually a slot with a semi-circle at each end, not a leaning upward oval as shown in the pic. Or the mag catch is defective. If it were me I'd check the hole first and open up the top downward. Just my .02 cents.
Joe
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Black Horse,
I know of no CAD drawings that are available for the Thompson but I've never really looked for any. I bought the M1928a1 "80%" receiver from Phila Ordnance, got a Form 1 SBR and machined it using manual equip. into a semi-auto configuration. Strictly a hobby build for myself. There are some Tommy prints floating around the internet but they are not CAD manufacturing drawings.
Joe
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Black Horse,
You got the right kit to build a WW II 1928A1 Thompson.
You should find everthing you need for building semi's at this site:
http://www.weaponsgu...php?board=105.0
Joe
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Like T Hound I stick to the brass case and FMJ. I like S&B. I've used Federal and I've got some Privi-Partisan to try out. As far as price, you just have to shop around for the best deal.
Joe
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Sgt,
Have to agree with The Lone Ranger on this. From your Form1 whatever is in block 4a goes in block 4a of Form 4.
If you are still uncertain after reading the directions on each form call the ATF.
My .02 cents
Joe
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Craig,
I've used these on Bob's receivers. Button head alloy steel socket, black oxide, 5-40 thread. Can be drilled out later for rivets. Finished rivet head appearance.
http://www.mcmaster....-screws/=l4pubi
Joe
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The way I looked at his patent was a kit of replacement parts and a new bolt and upper receiver keep your old full auto parts on the shelf and install the new ones. If I were going to sell a kit based on his patent that's the way I would do it. If the patent owner is out there and doing anything with this, I hope they are listening.
Bill
Bill,
I was interested in his Thompson when he first set up his website for early orders. As you know none have been available. At that time, as I understood it you sent him your parts kit plus about $2500 and you got your semi thompson. At that time a parts kit was $500-600 and were available. I doubt this arrangement is feasible today. All the parts would have to be new manufacture.
If you check Reconbob's posts he gives an interesting insight into the Polston Tommy Semi. Polston has 2 patents but you can built a Semi Thompsom without either. N/K Kahr has been doing it for over 30 years.
I you are looking to buy a currently manufactured semi replica Kahr is the only game in town.
Joe
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I am understanding now, the weaponsguild site was very informative as to what is going on and why these kits are so pricey. I know the post above say some have got BAFTA approval on a semi, does anyone have first hand knowledge that this is true?
Cocoabill,
The only known Approvals are Polston and N/K Kahr. There may be others but they have not been circulated. You do not legally need an Approval letter to build a semi-auto Thompson for yourself, its your call. If you are going to manufacture one common sense dicates that you get one.
Polston got one but as far as I know it never went into production.
The quote below from Doug Richardson's website about semi-auto Thompsons IMO sums it up pretty well.
Thompson Semi-Autos (26 Jan 08):
There seems to be a lot of confusion regarding semi-auto versions of Thompson guns. The yearning for a $20 drop-in semi-auto sear that will convert a Thompson into a legal semi-auto is understandable but not realistic. So, I will attempt here to try to explain the factors involved and the choices that are reasonably available.
Like it or not and regardless of the ingenious designs you may have for a semi-auto Thompson, we are all stuck with the Government’s design requirements. Of course, there are no fixed specifications set down in law that designers can work to, it is the interpretations and political agenda of bureaucrats that dictate a vague set of requirements that usually are summarized by some statement like “every case is different so we must examine the gun in order to make a judgment” or something like that. However, there does seem to be a pattern that has emerged that we can call the “requirements” and here it is as I understand it:
1) A new receiver must be used and if configured as a pistol, must never have had a buttstock style of trigger housing fitted. You can make a pistol into a rifle but you are not allowed to make a pistol out of a rifle.
2) The barrel must be 16" long if a buttstock can be fitted unless the gun is registered as a short barrelled rifle. If no buttstock can be fitted and the foregrip is not a vertical type, then it is a pistol and any length barrel can be used. However, if a person makes a pistol out of a parts kit and retains the short barrel, the Government may conclude that the person intended at some future time to install the short barrel and therefore, has an illegal gun.
3) The gun must fire from the closed bolt position.
4) The bolt face/firing pin arrangement must be such that if the sear is removed from its semi-automatic functioning of re-engaging the firing pin after every shot, the gun will jam on the next cartridge.
5) The receiver must have some means built in to it in order to prevent the operation of an original full-auto bolt if installed.
6) The trigger housing must not be able to accept a full-auto sear.
7) An unmodified full-auto trigger housing must not be able to fit on to the semi-auto receiver.
To date there are only two approved designs. The Numrich/Kahr (N/K) and the Polston.
Contary to 1) above IMO you can build a new semi reciever from a demilled reciever. ATF considers the demilled reciever as scrap steel and not a gun part subject to the limitations T-Hound mentioned above. You cannot build from an unregistered FA reciever.
Joe
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Well I am looking for a complete M1 semi automatic lower unit complete. Without paying an arm and leg, or my first born. Any ideas where I can get one? Thanks
Mike,
T Hound is right on. The M1's have really dried up over the last couple of years. Numrich used to have stripped M1 frames for about $330 but they are gone now. I don't think Sarco has any. You may find one on GunBroker but it won't be cheap. ReconBob shows new 1928A1 frames on his website. These are FA military spec. He told me awhile back that he may be offering M1 frames but to date they haven't appeared on his website.
You can with modifications use the FA military frames on a N/K Kahr semi reciever. There is a little machining to do on the front of the frame and the well for fire control must be plugged so that a FA sear will not fit. The semi fire control will fit in the Mil FA frame but the Semi disconnector, sear & pawl must be ground or milled to clear the FA/Semi selector.
None of your options are cheap.
Joe
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The bad news is that you can NEVER sell it to anyone, although I have heard you can sell to a Manufacturer or if YOU become a manufacturer.
T-Hound,
Have to disagree with you on this . You can not as an unlicensed individual build a firearm for the purpose of selling. You are not required to put a serial number on the firearm but if you ever transfer it it must have a serial number and makers mark. You are not prevented from transferring the firearm at a later date. Note that we are talking about Federal law, not California.
See the attachments.
Joe
HOME BUILT SALE OF FIREARM.doc
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JoeH,
Good looking M1. I agree with you the short barrel makes the gun look so much better. I like that you put the Mil frame on the reciever. Who did the machining on the frame for you?
I am sure you have a lot of fun shooting this gun.
Frank
Joe, very nice looking thompson! After I get done with my 27a1 I plan on saving for a OOW BAR then after that I'll probably contact Recon Bob for a semi-auto m1 thompson receiver! Dang so many toys so little money! :banghead:
Guys,
I built this M1 from a parts kit and one of Reconbob's 80% TSMG M1 receivers. It's a Form 1 SBR registered with the ATF. I did all the machining myself. If you are interested here are the details:
http://www.weaponsgu...p?topic=28815.0
Joe
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Hey Adam & jhm,
Nice M1 jhm. I couldn't agree with you more. I'm a WWII fan and the Tommies just don't look right with the long barrel, especially the M1. I'm not sure its cheaper to buy the SBR version. I would think you could pick up a long barreled semi M1, get the tax stamp and put on the short barrel cheaper than buying the SBR version. Then again, maybe not, under current market conditions. Green Mountain sells the 10.5" M1 barrel for under a hundred bucks and its built to the original Mil spec. I'm sure Bob Bower over at Phila. Ord. would install it for you if you can't do it yourself. Bob provided the receiver pictured below for my Semi-Auto SBR (Form 1) M1 built from a parts kit. The barrel is from Green Mountain.
Joe
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JC,
Sounds like a relatively rare WH pistol. The model was 1927A5. It should not have a provision for attachment of a butt stock so the firearm is not NFA as manufactured. The barrel & comp is 13". It is 28.5" in length, over 26" w/out the compensator, therefore it is legal to have a vertical foregrip. If it is a stock 1927A5 it is legal. If provision for adding a buttstock has been added it is NFA and it is contraband unless it has a tax stamp. If it has the provision for a buttstock immediately remove the barrel and get the barrel out of your control and possession. Then get a 16" barrel or get a SBR Tax Stamp (before you can put the 13" barrel back on).
The bolt locks back open with the pawl after the last round in the clip is fired. It cannot be fired from the locked open position as an open bolt firearm can. This feature is perfectly legal.
WH 1927A5 in pic below
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G,
I'd say given the current situation you did well. I sold an early WH on GB about 2 years ago for $775. If I had one for sale now I'd be asking $1100- 1200. There are plenty of modifications you can do to make the 1927A1 look more like the Colt 1921 or the military 1928A1.
http://1927a1.com/thompson/mods.htm
Reconbob at Phila. Ord. has the 1928A1 frames if you want the removable buttstock and FA/ Semi selector for a bolt hold back. If you really get hooked you can get one of Bob's 80% recievers and build you own semi.
Good Luck with your "new" 1927A1
Joe
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Mike,
I think you are telling us that you have a 1927A1 Kahr semi and that you bought a M1A1 semi receiver, Kahr semi?, in hope that the M1A1 receiver was all that was necessary to change the 1927A1 to M1. You noticed then that the rear end of the receivers are differently shaped.
With proper modifications a TSMG M1 or M1A1 frame can be made to work with either the Kahr 1927A1 or Kahr M1. The TSMG frame must be milled at the front end to fit the .1" under-height Kahr receiver and plugged so that the FA TSMG fire control cannot be inserted in the frame.
The TSMG M1/M1A1 frame will match the end of the Kahr M1 receiver but not the 1927A1. The kahr internals are identical between the 1927A1 and the M1/M1A1.
The M1/M1A1 normally had a different rear sight than the 1927A1. The M1/M1A1's generally had a smooth barrel & no compensator. Drum mags will not work with the M1 receiver.
IMO you may find in the long run you would have been better off just to buy a Kahr M1 if you wanted an M1.
Joe
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Randall,
It may be helpful to try other ammo but I use Sellier & Bellot FMJ 230gr all the time with no problems.
First thing I would try would be loading the mag with only about 5 rounds. Then work your way up. IMO 30 rounds in the 30 round mag is looking for a jam, particulary on a new gun that may need some fine tuning as has already been mentioned. From what I've heard the GI's in WW II never loaded more than 28.
Joe
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Skoda,
You can find pics of the Phila Ord engraving (click on "green" engraving) on Bob's website:
http://www.philaord.com/Thompsons.html
The finish provided by both Doug R and Phila Ord is black oxide. Unless the Brits actually painted the steel, black oxide was the way they were shipped to Britian.
The original receivers were roll stamped. No one including Doug R does that. I have never seen a Doug R reciever in person but IMO the engraving was done with a pantograph engraver (or CNC with a similar tool) and the engraving at least to my eye looks a little more like the roll stamping. Roll stamping moves the metal; engraving removes the metal. I've done my own engraving with a pantograph and IMO it's the closest you will get to roll stamping. All current production are engraved. If you are going to fill the engraving with white paint you won't be able to tell the difference. As you probably have noticed Doug R is probably a little more accurate in font & spacing. It's your decision. As you are aware the price diffence is significant. Both sell top quality products. I have Philly Ord 1928A1, 1921, & M1 recievers machined into semi's and have been very pleased with them.
Joe
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I No one is going to confuse a dummy/display gun with an original gun so the marking
would be a non-issue as far as collectors would be concerned.
Bob
I assume this also refers to semi auto's made from Bob's recievers. I doubt anyone could mistake a newly made reciever for an original. One big difference is that markings other than the acceptance stamps on the originals were roll stamped and not CNC engraved. Being a WW II fan I used a pantogragh engraver and put my version of the stamps on my Philly Ord reciever. It is a SBR M1 semi-automatic. They were definitly not intended to decieve anyone.
Joe
Ez-Pull Springs Help
in Thompson Semi-Auto Discussion Forum (West Hurley & Kahr Semis)
Posted · Edited by Joe H
Bill,
The bolt not holding open can be caused by a number of reasons. If the mag fit is sloppy it can cause the problem. To troubleshoot the problem take off the receiver and using just the trigger frame insert the mag with rounds in it. Start stripping off rounds from the mag by hand and watch the pawl (on right side of slot). With one round in the mag the pawl should be below the surface of the trigger frame. When you strip the last round the pawl should extend above the surface of the trigger frame. The tab on the magazine activates the trip (the lever that extends into the mag slot). It pushes down on the pawl causing the other end of the pawl to extend above the trigger frame base and lock the bolt back in the open position. Kahr uses a very weak spring to activate the pawl so check to be sure there is no binding in the trip or pawl. Try the operation by pushing the mag up and then pulling down so you can tell if it is the location or fit of the mag lock hole that is causing the problem. Another source of the problem, though highly unlikely, is that the slot in the bolt for the pawl is to short.
If the reloads are too weak for the bolt to hit the buffer and return then the bolt may not be going back far enough to catch the pawl but just far enough to cycle the gun if that is possible. Maybe be a possibilty, if everything above checks out. FMJ factory loads should sort this out.
Good Luck,
Joe