Balder
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Posts posted by Balder
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In deed. I think we should ask Arthur to come up with a topic. I would appreciate seeing him start a thread, an event that I cannot remember having had the pleasure of observing.
Balder
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I realized my mistake as soon as I posted it - but you were too quick Arthur. We need to get a life, both of us. Later!
Balder
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QUOTE (Arthur Fliegenheimer @ Feb 4 2007, 05:50 PM)
Balder,
Yes. But as you can see, I only mentioned COLT TSMG's being in France in 1940. You were the one who said they were Savage/AO. The former is true, while the latter is only conjecture.Arthur,
Whether there were Colt and/or Savage Thompsons actually used in Belgium and/or France - we do not know.
May I suggest we let this thread rest now - it's been good fun and I, among others, have learned quite a bit from the experience.
Thanks to all!
Balder
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Balder,
But the British didn't engage in any fighting until Dunkirk in 1940, where they put their Colt TSMG's to good use, ....
Exactly! Nobody disputes the Brits ordered Savage TSMG's from AOC in 1940, and that they were then eventually delivered to the British Isle some time in late April. But that any of them were ever processed through the bureaucracy in time to see combat in France, forget Norway, before it fell is up in the air. The French never got their order that was placed at the same time as the Brits.
It doesn't make good military sense to send over newly acquired smg's to a collapsing battlefront. By May, new PM Churchill pulled out the Spits from France. Why send over hundreds of TSMG's that would be more valued on the British home front to thwart the inevitable invasion?
LOL Arthur - you were the one who came up with the Dunkerque/Thompson connection in the first place. Let's give the issue some rest until we actually see pictures of Thompsons at Dunkerque.
Balder
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dalbert et al,
I have no reason to believe that Thompsons were used during the Norwegian campaign, please excuse me if I have given such an impression. I've never seen or heard anything to support such a theory. On a side note, the BREN-gun got its baptism of fire here.
If, and that is a big if, Thompsons were used at all during the events leading up to Dunkerque, I would actually find it amazing, given the short time between delivery to the UK (April 1940) and Dunkerque in late May. As we all know, the military supply system works in rather mysterious ways. I can't remember having seen any Thompsons on pictures from Dunkerque.
Balder
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Gentlemen,
What started out as me sharing some pics has turned into a very interesting thread - thanks for all of your inputs.
To add to the Savage/Colt/British/Lend-Lease/date confusion, may I add that my Savage M1928 (S-245XX) as shown in my previous post is supposed to have been in the first batch of 10,000 Thompsons to arrive the UK in April 1940. To quote the late James Herriot: If only they could talk...
Balder
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Arthur,
Good one!
Now let us lean peacefully back and enjoy the greatest-submachinegun-in-the-world discussion.
Balder
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Gentlemen,
At the risk of pouring even more gasoline on the fire, I enclose a picture of four of the submachineguns I currently own - in a sequence of priority (starting at the top) if I were to take one into combat.
Have a good weekend, all of you!
Balder
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v408/Balder_/MPs/4xMP.jpg
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QUOTE (Arthur Fliegenheimer @ Feb 3 2007, 02:38 PM) Balder,
OK. As long as we are splitting hairs by one month......
But you might want to check your facts. Since Savage did not even ship the first completed TSMG to AOC until April of 1940, how exactly did Maguire get crates of them to British troops in France the same Month? The only TSMG's the Brits had at that time were Colt TSMG's.Arthur,
You, of all people, should enjoy a good hair splitting when you see one. Besides, I don't think that pointing out more than a month worth of fighting qualify as hair splitting, but that's just my humble opinion.
My research at the National Archives in London supports other sources that state that the first Thompsons (Savage) arrived the UK in April 1940. I have no idea what Mr. Maguire did or did not do.
Balder
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QUOTE (Arthur Fliegenheimer @ Feb 3 2007, 01:22 PM)
Balder,
But the British didn't engage in any fighting until Dunkirk in 1940, where they put their Colt TSMG's to good use, and then during the Battle of Britain, there wasn't any need for Sten's mounted on Spitfires and Hurricanes. Outside of the Lend Lease Savage/AO TSMG's, the British did indeed rush into production the Sten.
Arthur,
First of all, may I suggest you get some basic facts of history right. The Brits did in deed engage in fighting well before Dunkerque in late May 1940. After the German invasion of Norway on April 9 1940, the British sent an Expeditionary Force to Norway, as a result the first British/German land battles of WW2 were actually fought on Norwegian soil.
During the German Blitzkrieg campaign (Fall Gelb) against the low countries in May 1940, the Wehrmacht encountered another British Expeditionary Force. Dunkerque in late May 1940 was merely the sad and final conclusion to the British European campaign in 1940 - of course they put their Thompsons (not Colt as you claim, but Savage) to good use since that was what they had - as previously mentioned, the STEN didn't come about until 1941. Those Thompsons were, however, not Lend-Lease as I believe you are claiming but bought by the British Purchasing Commission. The Lend-Lease act was not passed until March 1941.
Now, the Dunkerque disaster/miracle meant that the British lost maybe as much as 75% of their infantry weapons and practically all of their artillery and other heavy weapons. This was a main incentive to come up with a submachinegun on their own, as the Lanchester SMG was not a very good design and practically obsolete.
Balder
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Thomas,
An interesting picture in deed.
I believe that part of the reason why we don't see too many pictures of Commandos with STENs is the fact that the Commando unit(s) were formed as early as 1940 when the only submachinegun available in some quantity was the Thompson - the STEN was still a year away. Like you said in an earlier post, " I think it all comes down to what you have trained on and what you have confidence with. " I'll look into this matter next time I visit the National Archives in London.
Balder
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QUOTE (Arthur Fliegenheimer @ Feb 3 2007, 12:57 AM)
Of course the 20 year old TSMG was a stop gap weapon at the start of WWII, but so was the Sten Gun, only more so. The cheapest and easiest construction smg to be mass produced with out need for consideration of quality or ergonomics.
Arthur,
The STEN wasn't adopted until 1941, so it was not a stop gap weapon at the start of WW2. It served as the standard British submachinegun until the introduction of the Sterling (which is basically an upgraded STEN) in 1951, even after that point it remained in use in the UK and several other countries for many years. What may have been intended as a stop gap measure turned out to be a very effective and long-lived weapon in deed.
Ergonomics were obviously not top-priority with Shepperd and Turpin, its designers, but I don't think there's anything wrong with its quality. Simplicity of manufacture and use does not necessarily mean bad quality.
Balder
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QUOTE (lostminer @ Feb 2 2007, 01:16 PM) I was in Scotland this past Dec. On a windswept hill not far from Loch Ness there is a commando memorial park including a larger-than-life bronze statute with one soldier carrying a 1928. If I can find the pictures taken in a North Sea gale I'll post them. lostminer,
That is probably where I was too, at Spean Bridge. Quite an impressive monument.
Here's a link: http://www.highland-glens.co.uk/commandos/index.htm
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QUOTE (Arthur Fliegenheimer @ Feb 2 2007, 12:46 PM) Balder,
Perhaps after the war, the British veterans you encountered proclaimed fondness for the Sten over the TSMG for parochial or patriotic reasons. I can't see any advantage of the Sten over a TSMG, or MP40 for that matter, other than ease of manufacture.Ok.
How about: Weight and size of gun? Weight and volume of ammunition? Simplicity? Concealability? Ease of maintenance?
Granted, the Thompson has a higher rate of fire (which also means that you run out of ammo faster) and more impact; in my opinion these are the only aspects where the Thompson has an edge over the STEN, in addition to a possibly better accuracy past 50 meters.
BTW, the veterans in question were all Norwegians, not British. They all had quite a balanced view on the gear they used, I do not believe that patriotism or the "not-made-here" syndrome was an issue with them.
Balder
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QUOTE (Arthur Fliegenheimer @ Feb 2 2007, 11:44 AM) Balder,
Are you saying that British Commandos preferred the Sten over the TSMG?Arthur,
I was trying to say that the text in the museum stated that the Commandos preferred the Thompson over the STEN, I may have gotten linguistically lost in the process. This is contrary to what several veterans have told me, including one gentleman who actually participated in the fighting on Walcheren. Another one, who was part of "Operation Carhampton" on the Norwegian coast, didn't have much good to say about the Thompson either; "When I tried to sneak up on the German sentry, he could hear my Tommygun and that f***** drum magazine before I got within reasonable firing range".
All aspects considered, personally I'd rather go into combat with a STEN.
Balder
(going down in his hole waiting for incoming...)
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Gentlemen,
On my Scotland trip last year I spent a night in Spean Bridge on the west coast. This area was a Commando training center during WW2, I found these pictures in a nice little exhibition in the hotel. Please excuse the poor quality due to shooting through glass. The text accompanying the pictures stated, somewhat contradictive to common belief, that the Thompson was generally preferred to the STEN. I thought you'd like to have a look.
Too bad about the soldier in the tree who seems to have forgotten his magazine in all the commotion. The second one was supposedly taken on the Dutch island of Walcheren, where British and Norwegian Commandos among others ran into heavy German resistance.
Balder
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v408/Balder_/WW2/thomptree.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v408/Balder_/WW2/thompwalcheren.jpg
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Gentlemen,
In my most recent purchase of, according to wife, useless junk there was a Savage pistol grip in worn but sound condition. It fits my Savage M1928 perfectly, not sure about M1/M1A1. I don't need it, but I am not sure if I can ship it to the USA - you guys seem to have some pretty weird laws when it comes to re-importing US-made merchandise. Anyway, I'll ship it to anybody who will cover my expenses - $ 10 plus shipping from Norway.
Balder
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v408/Balder_/Thompson/DSCN0001.jpg
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heavy artillery,
I'm sorry that we so thoroughly derailed your thread, I hope you got at least some useful information out of it.
Regards,
Balder
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We also paint ours white.
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Norm,
Here we only lick our flagpoles in summer, guess you guys do it all year.
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I'm no expert on this issue, but as far as I know the 1928 was adopted as the standard US submachine gun in September 1938 and in official language given the A1 suffix for some reason. At this stage there were no mechanical differences between them, but changes were later made; e.g. smooth barrels and simple L rear sight. Production started at Savage in 1940, but the first guns were still without the A1 suffix until approx. S-140,000. From there and up to approx. S-225,000 the guns were after-stamped with the A1 in a separate operation. From approx. S-225,000 the M1928A1 stamping was done in one operation. I am sure others on this board will be able to tell you more.
Balder
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QUOTE (heavy artillery @ Nov 26 2006, 02:20 PM) Are there any good tips for cold weather shooting of the Thompson? Are there any parts that you absolutely don't want any lubricant on? Are there any preferred cold weather oils/lubes? Since I live in Norway I do quite a lot of shooting in sub-zero temperatures. My rule of the thumb is to use as little oil as possible and make sure that it is very thin. I've never experienced any functional problems that can be related to the temperature, but keep in mind that extreme cold can make metal brittle. I had an M1 carbine slide snap straight off in approx. -20C/0F, the cold was the prime suspect. Good luck!
Balder
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Here's mine, S-245XX
Balder
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v408/Balder_/Thompson/tstampings006.jpg
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Ken,
Thanks for the information; I don't know much about trademark registration at all, I was just quoting one source. Could the rules have been different back then?
Balder
A Series Of Thompson Fine Art Photos
in Thompson Submachine Gun Message Board
Posted
Zamm,
Excellent pctures! Out of curiosity - are you using real cameras or have you gone digital?
Balder