Black River Militaria CII
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Posts posted by Black River Militaria CII
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Your English is excellent, by the way, just sayin'......
Stocks for UD42 smgs are very difficult to find and there are no reproductions that I have seen or heard of. It is not worth the expense and effort to reproduce them.
Put a WTB, want to buy, ad on www.sturmgewehr.com under the appropriate heading and also here....
good luck.
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Yes, good catch! Having had a 1914 Colt with that sight on it years ago, I am chagrined not to have remembered that.
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Sight is missing the multiple peep rotating disc in center of lower part of sight elevator. It is for the 1909 Benet-Mercie LMG in .30-06. Broken screw as well. Will not fit any other MG. Windage adjustment screw is right forward not back left as on 1917/1917a1 WCs. FWIW
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Interested in the sight if you want to sell......
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Seeing a prospective MG purchase is always an excellent idea. As a devil's advocate, and just to make the point, if it was welded it would have absolutely have been refinished, and that would have most likely been parkerizing. Weld shows through parkerizing without significant annealing of the welded areas. It appears to be an old park job anyway, probably an Arsenal refinish, which is quite uniform, but, of course, the camera can change appearances. It sure isn"t a recent refinish. While one side has some minor disturbances on the surface in typical weld spots, neither the top or other side do. Why is that? Having welded dozens of MGs and finished them with park or bluing, there just isn't any solid evidence of it in these pics, on this example that I can see. If it is a welded receiver, I'd spend some money to visit the smith and see how he did it without leaving any of the usual tracks and especially without refinishing it. FWIW
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Looking at the condition of the outer rails of the upper there is no evidence of any welding, finishing or disturbance of the original metal or finish across them or up the sideswalls. Same for the top of the receiver. The markings are correct and vintage and there is also no evidence of any metal or finish disturbance around the serial. I don't see any evidence that the upper was welded together and it certainly looks like a correct, vintage upper.
No evidence of a refinish that would be required if it had been welded.
Whether it was properly registered pre or during the Amnesty can only be determined through an FOIA showing date and form of original registration.
If the price is good the wood and various small bits can be replaced. -
Pics would be of great help. UD parts are scarce and those needing spares to complete live examples and those just wanting spare parts, etc would value these quite highly. Also value would be seriously enhanced if the receiver is a faithful copy of the original for a post- sample build. I assume the original bolt is not with the parts. Too bad.
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If you like old MG ads, visit my site www.blackrivermilitaria.com and click on "annoying ads". Pics of some of the ads I saved going back to Curt Earls brochures in the late 1960s. R. J. Perry had some of the most interesting MGS offered in the early years. FWIW
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The count of "E" type or first model production FGs that are in the US in private hands, thus registered, is 26, with 3 in museums that may or may not be registered. This is according to Keilholz's archive in the 2nd edition of "Death From Above". The number quoted above, 89, is also about correct for the number of registered 2nd production model, the 'G' type, in the US.
During 2016 I reactivated a "G" type FG for a customer and also an "E" type FG for another customer in 2018, both of which are listed in the archive. I also have a "G" type example in my collection.
While there will be more "E" type FGs which have not been included in the archive of known examples, a mere 26 in the NFRTR is a very small number in my view. For comparison, I have an MG which I've verified as the only example in the NFRTR and two others I've verified as there being only two of each in the registry. So 26 examples in the NFRTR is definitely slim especially for such a noteworthy MG. FWIW
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Someone did the paperwork to make the dewatt a live gun but never followed through and didn the work. No big deal unless you wanted a dewatt and now it on a form as live
This might be true in the case of an extreme minority of DEWATs, but the actual reason so many registered DEWATs transferred on taxed Form 4s is for the following main reasons. Buyers and sellers for many, many years did not understand the correct paper trail to reactivate a registered DEWAT, or they didn't want to go through the hassle of the correct reactivation paperwork process. No doubt there are others. An example of "others" are live MGs that were deactivated post-Amnesty and on by their registrants for various reasons.
ATF's examiners for so many years were mostly ignorant of the finer points of MG registration and notoriously unmotivated and an incoming application for the transfer of a DEWAT on a Form 4 with the tax paid was just not vetted properly. The examiners generally didn't review the serial number in the NFRTR to check the original registrations of these guns, but just did the minimal review and approved the transfer. Pre-Amnesty, unserviceable MGs did not require registration but the application forms for the initial registration asked if the MG was serviceable or not so that information was on the original registration form. Examiners certainly could have followed the paperwork protocol for registered DEWATs and not approve DEWATs on form 4s. if they did their job and reciew rhe original registration.
Anyway, unserviceable MGs were supposed to transfer by tax exempt Form 5s from original registration forward until reactivated. Hundreds and hundreds of registered DEWATs in ensuing years that should have transferred on Form 5s just passed through ATF on form 4s. ATF was happy as the tax was paid and the gun was registered. Large numbers of registered DEWATs circulated for years on taxed Form 4s and many many have been reactivated without the hassle of the correct procedures and paper trail.There are only two ways to correctly reactivate a DEWAT and each is somewhat cumbersome. They are : Taxed Form 1 by an individual and Form 2 by an FFL07/SOTII. Legally, DEWATs are required to transfer on tax exempt Form 5s between registrants regardless until reactivated. Individuals and FFLs must receive a registered DEWAT on a Form 5 to legally reactivate it. An FFL has to file a Form 2 indicating that the serial numbered gun was reactivated and then the live MG transfers directly back to the registrant by taxed Form 4.
ATF closely vets all transfer applications so it is now more difficult to transfer a registered DEWAT on a Form 4. However, despite the current irresponsibly long processing periods, there are shortcuts that can be used to eliminate one of the transfer periods.
FWIW
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Need the item number, please.
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Yes, I am well aware of that but don't consider it an issue of any importance compared to others, and it is not possible to offer an explanation for that without seeing it. Over the years I've encountered a number of thick rim steam port heads on watercooled MGs and also have seen a number that were obviously shop made for repair that were not identical to factory. With the other obvious issues with and alterations to this gun, it is fair to say that part is probably a repro to repair the steam tube.I had several of these parts made for such Maxims as the 1904 US gun and Russian 1905 etc.
No doubt a standard Vickers steam tube might fit and take care of that issue.
The altered location of the water port at top rear of the jacket is a major issue needing explanation. FWIW
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Just keep in mind, as a reference to the ongoing disfunction of ATF, that the LEFT sideplate was the controlled part, i.e. a "machine gun" for most of the years of legal manufacture and registration of MGs for private possession between Dec. 2 '68 and May 19, '86.
The change, some years ago now, to the RIGHT sideplate as the controlled part is a perfect example of ATF creating a problem resulting from an incredibly stupid import blunder. Instead of simply relying on the longstanding protocol of the LEFT plate as the controlled part and cleaning up their mess they cobbled up the ridiculous hodgepodge of the right plate designation. Having been using registered MG08 LEFT sideplates to build other Maxims, which was approved by ATF, I wasted a lot of time talking various ATF personnel and trying to make the case to keep the LEFT plate as the controlled part. They had no interest in listening to someone with longstanding experience with building Maxims and knowledgeable about the history of registered Maxims in the NFRTR, but used the hypothetical perspective of their lawyers and inexperienced field personnel as the basis for their twisted hodgepodge non-solution. Bureaucratic idiocy at it's finest. We just have to dance to their tunes played by their awful band. FWIW
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Yes, this Vickers has been the subject of some speculation due to the non-alignment of the front cap witness marks with the jacket marks. Having assembled a number of mismatched front endcaps to Brit and Colt Jackets I have not had to shorten jacket length at the front by one turn so the witness marks are close. The alignments have been very close and required very slight shaving of the jacket front edge to allow the cap to rotate about 1/10th or less of a turn for full seating. Same for the trunnion ends.
Without scrutinizing the jacket, I can't tell if it is Colt or Brit, but I'd surmise that it is Colt and could ve original to the gun. The gun has a large brass plate over the top rear of the jacket so any marks are covered or have been removed. The plate covers could possibly be the rebuild of the upper part of the aircraft receiver trunnion which is usually cut away on aircraft guns or possibly just to cover damage to that part of the the original trunnion and jacket on the gun.
The water plug hole location in the seller's picture of the added brass plate has been rotated clockwise significantly away from the usual position on a 1915 Colt. This is a major indicator of possible non-originality of this jacket to this gun, but it could have been done for a different reason which I suggest below.
A standard steam tube would still properly fit into a slightly shortened jacket and if not it can very easily be modified to fit so that isn't evidence of anything.The front endcap is correctly serial numbered and ID'd for a standard Colt 1915 ground gun and that number is, apparently, the registered number of the gun. The important question about the provenance of this gun is what serial number is stamped on the inside upper rear of both sideplates and one other place on the receiver. If the receiver number is the same as the endcap, then it is more difficult to tell what happened to this gun and why the brass plate? If the numbers all match, it is possible that the plate was put there to cover some sort of damage to that part of the trunnion and jacket of a complete ground gun. The water plug hole could have been moved lower to allow the plate to cover the damage. This possibility could be verified with some lighting and small optical equipment viewed through the water hole or from the barrel hole in the front endcap, etc.
I suspect you meant to write "1968" instead of "1978" and you meant the year of the Amnesty. At that time there would have been absolutely no reason to construct such a 1915 Colt Vickers. There were disassembled MGs as well as unregistered, complete MGs available during those years and ongoing but there were no "kits". Parts were generally plentiful and aside from J.C. Earl in Phoenix, whose prices were iincredibly high for the time, a complete, excellent Colt 1915 could be had for $350 and up. No one at that time was building registered ground guns from ventilated jacket aircraft receivers, a way of building more registered ground Vickers from Brit and Aussi parts and which didn't start happening until much, much later.
Hard to tell when this work was done on the gun but it could have been at any time. It could have been done to repair and preserve a Colt Vickers prior to the Amnesty, too. Note that the font and character of the stamped numbers on the endcap are very, very similar to the stamped numbers on the brass plate.
One of my favorite MGs is a Colt 1915 Vickers that belonged to Fox movies studios and is so marked on the rear, top of the jacket. If I recall the price was $1500 in the early 1980s.
if someone has an opportunity to closely inspect this controversial Vickers it would be very interesting to see what he has to say.FWIW
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Interesting to try and figure out which guns the IRS decided to keep alive and which ones to destroy.
So, in the case of an obliterated serial # (heavens, say it isn't so!), did the bad guys that did alleged obliterating know that the same serial number is on the bottom rear of the Thompson receiver too and get rid of that one too? Just askin'. Interesting thread, thanks for bringing up different scenarios and explanations.
Pre-'68 Amnesty ANYONE could register an MG, no questions asked and it was free. If there was no number that was clearly the serial number, a number could be made up and applied for registration purposes. While most manufacturers serialized their firearms many did not and serial numbers were not required until passage og the GCA'68. Military small arms are almost universally serialized going way back. An MG without a serial, missing for some reason, did not mean anything because there was no system to trace the serial number to a specific owner. Thus, the gun was not contraband or illegal and a number could be assigned and applied to comply with NFA requirements for registration in the case of MGs. FWIW
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"Gunsmithing is the bottom of the barrel for return on investment if you have skills and a shop. It's generally referred to as charity work."
I couldn't agree more! You are smart to take your comment to heart and avoid doing any professional gunsmithing! I sure won't tell any of the gunsmiths I've known for many many years, who have been laboring long and hard under the illusion that their prosperity and the profits they make, in actuality, are just that: an illusion. Once they find out, unbeknownst to them, that they have been doing charity work, no doubt they will immediately take up coding and really start living the good life.....
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Pre-amnesty and GCA'68 there was no reason or problem to fake or add a serial number on an NFA MG registration since any number would do. So, removing a serial number really didn't mean anything at all nor did it mean anything that a firearm didn't have a serial number since they were not legally required. Of course, under NFA rules an MG had to have a number but it didn't matter what it was and adding one didn't mean that the MG was being stealthily registered to sneak it into the registry.
MGs in the NFRTR are registered under numbers that were model, or manufacturer's codes, or any number that was available as an ID. An interesting example in my experience was a German MG15. These guns have a prominent large stamped number on the top of the receiver that is a factory code number of some sort and is the same on every gun. I had an MG15 registered under that number which then made every MG15 in the registry registered to me! I assume that it was the only MG in the NFRTR actually registered using that number instead of the actual serial number since ATF never called about a transfer of another MG15 being held up for that number because there were two registrants with the same numbered gun. I did have that problem years later and had to dance with ATF for quite a while before the music stopped on that one.
Anyway IRS numbers on MGs show up quite a bit and are perfectly legitimate and were, at the time, Treasury's helpful way of assisting new registrations of MGs. FWIW
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I'll add that registered Guide M3s are scarce, in my experience. Having seen many registered examples of Guide guns over the years, by far, the majority are M3a1s.
With all due respect (not sarc), the aftermarket grease guns were made by the Medea Corp. not "Media"......FWIW
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I believe he eye on the receiver is the same.
What are you actually trying to do?
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No. Differences in configuration of mounting hardware between the two guns makes the swap not a drop in.
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Virtually unused C drum showing unbeaded edge with contrasting textures.
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Mod: Apologies for multiple posts. Pleases delete this post.
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Since the introduction of non-sporting rifle caliber barrel destruction for import, with anywhere from one to four holes, lots of attempts have been made to repair the holes. There is no perfect way short of a full barrel boring and insertion of a liner but that is extremely expensive, who will do it and the liner will not stand up to fullauto firing.
Most MG barrels can be reproduced and there are now several barrel makers who can make barrels with a decent expectation of reasonable durability with fullauto firing.Polish RPD barrels are available. Chinese made show up now and then and every once in a while RPD barrels of other makers show up.
Repros avaiable, too......
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Google up BAR and scan videos of the assembly procedure.
Not very difficult.
Canadian Army 1942 Inglis Bren MKIm Questions
in Bren Light Machine Gun & Lewis Gun Message Board
Posted
Stock appears to me to be the late model stock. The M Inglis models were produced with the same stock as the MKI's that had the folding shoulder bracket on the top rear of the stock.
I have a 1944 dated Chinese Inglis 7.92 MKII that typically has the same stock as the one on the gun in the pic.
IMO, no reason to suspect that the gun was not manufactured and issued with the stock currently on it.
I suspect finding a really nice condition MKI or MKIM Inglis stock will be a task.
FWIW