Why Atf Approves Non-citizens, Nfa Weapons?

[junglewalk]

I'm getting to be an old man, and may be behind all you guys, especially our ATF members here....

My own Rep. Ron Lewis ®, Ky, thought one has to be a citizen of the USA, before approved by ATF for regular guns, ie, pistol/rifle/shotgun!.....I have watched at KCR, dudes who can not speak english fill out the form, with the owner's help, then get approved immediately by the chick at ATF!!!.....just because, the person of unknown origin pulls out a driver's license from God knows where, or some B.S. utility bills from a residence! :banghead: ...When the ATF chick pulls up this name, of course there is nothing on the screen, this dude just came across the border a few months ago from who knows where!!!.......

Why in the hell is not that 'citizen' question treated the same way as the "is this gun for you" question!! :angry: .."Stop right here, if you are not a citizen, and leave this gunshop now"!!!...WTF!!! Is this not a national security breech???? Aliens being approved by ATF for firearms purchases????

Well guys, what has really burned me up, is when the light went on in this 2-brain celled head of mine, during this last MG Shoot.......

While waiting to take a smg shooter thru the Jungle Walk course, a guy holding a M3-Grease gun with a german accent said, "I love your country, letting me have this"!.......I asked , what do you mean, this is your country too, being a citizen!..(I had assumed he was, of course, owning a NFA weapon)...

He said, "No, I am a resident here, but a CITIZEN OF GERMANY"!~,,,,and those are 3 more smgs in those cases!...he also said, "Hans here is a resident, but a citizen of Holland". Hans was holding a Swedish K!!...WTF.... :angry:

NOW, GET THIS!..>> they said they spend most of the year in their home countries. I said, where the hell are these machineguns while you are back in krautland,drinking beer, and Hans there got his finger in a dike in Holland??,,,,He said, mine are with my uncle in Penn!!!,and Han's gun was kept in Maine with his Aunt Helga!!! :banghead: I THOUGHT THE NFA WEAPON HAD TO BE IN YOUR POSESSION/CONTROL, AT ALL TIMES, not turned over to relatives??? ATF needs their asses kicked!! (or tighten this NON-CITIZEN B.S.)

 

This is bull shit, I'm sorry!.........ATF is so damn hard on us run of the mill, take for granted, citizens about bs things, but yet, the damn door is open to "unknowns" to be approved for freekin NFA weapons!!!

IS THAT NOT A NATIONAL SECURITY RISK????

Lets say a bunch of well behaved muslim fanatics form a cell here, and being funded by their fanatical homeland Al Qaeda, purchase all kinds of big time weapons across the country, and all approved by the ATF.....Then, this sleeper cell wakes up, and attacks a US target, using all ATF approved NFA weapons!!! (is this the "gunshow loophole, Sen.McCain talked about back then?..It should have been!)

Am I the only one yelling and screeming out here??.....Do all you guys already know this???.....quick, give me a drink!......

 

[The Lone Ranger]

This is one scary thread to enter! Try burning some bamboo, it lightens the mood every time.

 

Resident aliens can possess firearms because they are not prohibited by 18 U.S.C. 922(g). NFA firearms are still firearms and unless you are in a prohibited category or state law prohibits possession, you're OK. As for the storage, they can be stored somewhere other than where you are as long as someone else can't take possession/control, ie, I put safe in your house but don't give you the code/combo.... good to go.

 

This will probably fire you up even more, but non-immigrant aliens can have firearms as well if they have a hunting license or waiver from the state department. Next time you lay hands on a 4473, you can see it all there, and here's some on-line info: http://www.atf.gov/firearms/faq/faq2.htm#r

 

If you see a dealer filling out a form for someone, might be a good thing to take notes on and report. Could be the dealer is providing an inappropriate "service" for a customer as some do, or he might be filling out a form for the next Ft. Dix crew.

 

As for the bogus ID situation, it is rampant. I used to make a living catching illegals who got fictitious DL/ID cards (by fictitious I mean "legit" docs issued by the state but with incorrect info on the applicant - saw a few fraudulent [home made, etc] but not many). There is an entire economy in the U.S built on providing them, too. In the area I worked, $700-800 got you a matching set SS Card and birth certificate... usually the real deal which is nice for either an illegal who wants a job or someone who plans on blowing up a school bus. The Secret Service eventually made a case and arrested 5 people (all here illegally) for getting the goods shipped in and selling them. That was in a small midwestern town, so I can't imagine the volume in a metropolitan area. Short of biometric national ID, I can't think of much to stop it other than of course securing the borders and crushing businesses that lure the illegals here, but way too much money involved for legislators in either party to act on it any time soon. I actually don't worry about a national ID - we already have one, but it is rampant with fraud. At least with fingerprints or retina scans the original person could be picked from the cast of many. SSA and IRS won't pay someone to catch the frauds either, because if they have 10 people paying in on one number, good for them - the agency still only pays bennies or issues refunds to one person.

[junglewalk]

Thanks Ranger for responding.. and all your efforts in catching these frauds, and illegals......yes i have a 4473 in front of me and that damn ATF F5330.20 "Certification of Compliance with 18 USC,922 etc"...This form, as we all know, is the one that goes in with a NFA weapon application......

That form should be just like the 4473 question, "Is this for you" one....No citizen, no NFA weapon!!! :banghead:

I get what you are saying, and I know this, but since 911, this NFA allowance to ,UNKNOWNS got to stop! :angry: .....and I realize the only way is with our Senate & House of Reps in Washington.

But your explaination of that Resident who goes back to his citizenship country, and leaves the NFA weapon in a safe with Aunt Stella, is B.S........THE NFA WEAPON IS OUT OF THE OWNER'S CONTROL!!...Any perp has months to get in Aunt Stella's safe, and there it goes!....Chaos!!!!.....

This whole hap-hazard way the ATF approves these NFA weapons to these Non-Citizens, is nuts, and we are asking for trouble!!.....Do you not agree this a National Security Threat???..

It's like equiping the bad guys, before they rob a bank!!!

************* ************* ************

I have already hammered my congressman's office about this, and both my senators folks !!...All three offices are aware of our MG Shoots here at Knob Creek.....All three chiefs of staff guys, were stunned to learn of the ATF approval of of transfer of NFA weapons to Non-citizens.......

So Ranger, what do you think can be done, to cut this off!!....Have it written as a bill to be attached to a big one...?

I can not see any US Representative argue for the right of a stinkin foreigner to have NFA weapons....Become a citizen first!

So the Goofey law that allows this, is there; So therefore it must be changed, and I guess we got to get them first, to understand the 1934 NFA, then look at this National Security Crack!

BTW, do you come to KCR for the MG shoots?.......I would be glad to meet you, and even have you go thru the vaunted 'Jungle Walk' course!......Thanks for your response..... ....>But I can't be the only one who thinks this way!!!

Edited November 24, 2007 by junglewalk

[The Lone Ranger]

JW,

 

One thing I would be wary of is opening a pandora’s box by writing a common sense, narrowly defined correction to the system that would be morphed or amended by the red faction to punish or restrict law-abiding U.S. citizens which seems to be a high priority with those types. I don’t think there is an easy answer. For example, illegal aliens are already prohibited from possessing firearms of any type by 922(g), but if they get an ID like I mentioned in the last thread, they “become” citizens, so I see a certain amount of futility unless a tamper proof ID system is implemented. Like you, I cannot see many legislators opposing such a change - something that would probably need to be done for self preservation is to get the big dogs in the lobby biz on board with a firm commitment to pull support immediately if any wording was changed or the bill amended in any way to expand on its intent.

 

One thing that might be a start is simply rescinding 18 U.S.C. 922(y) which provides exceptions for non-immigrant aliens and modifying 922(g)(5)(B ) which generally prohibits nonimmigrant aliens from possessing firearms and 922(d)(5)(B ) which generally makes it illegal for anyone to knowingly sell to a nonimmigrant alien to something like “has been admitted to the United States under a nonimmigrant visa...” which would prohibit possession or sale of any firearm by/to a nonimmigrant alien, regardless of hunting license or diplomatic position.

 

Admittedly, this would not address the specific situation you documented, as those guys were seemingly immigrant aliens which is another category. I need more brain cells - too many tied up with basic life functions.

 

Concerning the storage, a bigger trick yet, as some good owners trapped in “People’s Demokratik Republik” type states now utilize that method to have access to NFA. Just my opinion, but addressing the alien possession aspect might be a safer avenue and cure this by default. Another thing I can see developing would be putting more burden on the owners vs. theives: The same knucklehead who breaks into my safe at your house can break into my safe at my house, and if I live in an area that a theft is more likely to occur, we risk headlines about how NFA is evil because dirtbags can steal them. I’d hate to see us share what the Brits had to endure when they could still own guns - storage construction standards and police inspections in your house. (Was stationed there 89-92 and it has deteriorated since then).

 

Yes, I attend KCR regularly; I have made the NFATCA meeting last three trips and usually stay for Fri or Fri-Sat. I would be happy to meet up with you sometime and relay some more ID fraud stories. You will probably laugh and boil over at the same time. :nutkick:

Edited November 24, 2007 by The Lone Ranger

[junglewalk]

Ranger;

I feel as you do, about a possible "common sense, narrowly defined correction to the system" quiet bill, to fix this alien-non-citizen transfers of NFA weapons.... ,,,because just as you fear, a Chuckie Schumer or Teddie Kennedy would see the door cracked slightly, and make a fanatical effort to kick it wide open, and destroy what you and I as responsible citizens, have now as responsible NFA owners.

The adjustments to the regulations you suggested, can they not be done without an act of congress?......Can not Homeland Security request that hole be squeezed closed , temporarily to non-citizens, for now?...I guess not.

Ranger, what is surprising me here now, and on the mg-42/34 web-site, is the lack of response to this thread, and the same thread on Salt6's MG website that i started there about this Security issue.....I can see guys are reading it, but not coming in and expressing shock and dismay at what you and I are talking about.

Do you ATF guys discuss among yourselves, what we have here???...I would be interested to know if you guys do. I would hope it is a major concern, and that maybe you guys could come up with a way to close that open porthole to Non-citizens.......because you guys know better than I, what big time weapons are on that register.

Thanks Ranger, and God bless you and your kind, who know what the heck you are doing in the ATF.

 

(do you have a mg-34?...I just got one awhile ago, and my heart is still singing!)

[The Lone Ranger]

JW,

 

I didn't mean to imply any association with ATF - just responded to your post because the subject was interesting. I don't know if I could pass the psych eval there and if I did, not sure how good a career move it would be to take pot-shots at communism in a public forum.

 

I don't believe there is a regulatory remedy to the scenario since statutes specifically address it now.

 

Can you post a link to the 34/42 site you mentioned? I used to own both, but am a has-been for now. Hopefully that will change in the coming year. Actually, my icon is supposed to be a 42, but it's so freakin small you can't tell anyway!

[junglewalk]

Ranger;

It is good to take pot shots at communism, i spent most of my productive life fighting or training to be ready to fight commies!

You would do well in atf, and it is their loss you are not there.

That site is ; http://www.mg42.us/

I had the impression it was a 34, probably because i have the mg-34 on the brain lately..........thanks again!..

[Bob T]

There is an adage about letting sleeping dogs lie.

 

Since in the general population's mind there is no reasonable reason to let anyone own operable NFA items the most likely result of your agitation will be to get the NFA door closed to everyone. It is already true in a small number of states.

 

In fact the only misuse of NFA items has been by US citizens so that alone adds fuel to a total prohibition. You can not even trust citizens with these deadly items.

 

Before you blow a gasket and commit hara kiri remember what happened when Eric Larsen asked for a third letter on the Akins Accelerator. No Akins Accelerators for anyone!

[hrt4me]

There is an adage about letting sleeping dogs lie.

 

Since in the general population's mind there is no reasonable reason to let anyone own operable NFA items the most likely result of your agitation will be to get the NFA door closed to everyone. It is already true in a small number of states.

 

In fact the only misuse of NFA items has been by US citizens so that alone adds fuel to a total prohibition. You can not even trust citizens with these deadly items.

 

Before you blow a gasket and commit hara kiri remember what happened when Eric Larsen asked for a third letter on the Akins Accelerator. No Akins Accelerators for anyone!

 

I agree, be careful for what you ask. And further, IMHO, just because someone is an AmCit does not necessarily make them any more law-abiding than anyone else.