Lake Thompsons

[schatzperson]

Some interesting stories concern the contents of some Austrian lakes in the Corinthia region.

This area saw frantic attempts by feeling axis troops to dump anything that was construed to be dangerous to own in that volatile period, anything from uniform buttons (I have family from Austria and know the stories), tanks, cases of counterfiet bank notes, nazi gold and of course weapons. Stories that have fed the duscovery channel and at least one filmmaker. Furthermore evidence suggests that the persistent rumours of nazi gold in the lakes was given a nasty twist when one person was shot dead while treasurehunting a few years ago.

 

Some areas were so rich in relics that untill about 10 years or so, some parts of the forest yielded significant amounts of goods lying in the undergrowth.

 

One lake in particular hosts significant quantities of (British !!!) Thompsons.

The facts I know for sure because I have personally met with idividuals who have salvaged numerable artifacts from the depts.

It appears that, at about 50 to 60 meter depth, the metal parts are very well preserved.

I have examined one Enfield rifle in surprisingly good condition from the lake.

I did not have the chance to examine any TSMG's so recovered, but I intend to have ago at these babies next.

Just in case, I suddenly disappear, you all know what happened ok ? :-)

 

I was just wondering what British Thompsons would be doing sleeping with the fishes in an Austrian lake.

 

Vincent

[fortyfivecal]

Vincent, you be careful ok? that is interesting, nazi items dumped is understandable, british gear though? perhaps arms that had been captured, dunkerque, dieppe, were stored in the early years of the war, and, towards the end, dropped in the lake. who knows? someone could write more than one book on the logitstics at the end of the war, particularly from the russian side of the conflict. i worked with a former german soldier when i first started as a toolmaker. he told me, that he had been serving on the eastern front, and his group decided it was better to surrender to the americans or british, climbed into an old school bus, and had 2 tiger tanks out front. he said the russians would give way to the tigers, so they drove towards berlin. the really interesting part of his story, was that they arrived in berlin while it was under attack by the russians, and, that an american convoy was given pass to enter the city from the west, the americans he said, drove straight to the german patent offices, which he said occupied an entire city block, with a large courtyard, according to him, the americans bricked up the entrance to the courtyard from the inside, and stayed there for about a day, then, removed the obstruction, and drove out and back across the lines. evidently his group didn't stay long in berlin, and passed on towards the west, how they escaped both the russians AND the ss, he didn't say. i have no reason to dis-believe him, he showed me his soldatbuch. there was a great deal that went on in those last months that history has swept by in the rush to end the war, and with the beginning of the cold war. please keep us posted on any of your adventures, and, again, be safe. Edited March 2, 2009 by fortyfivecal

[schatzperson]

Yes the last days were very heady; Dramatic stories abound; I am not surprised that your friend did not want to talk much about it; Few did or do. Its a bit of a shame really because a large part of these events are history as well and we are on the last legs of the eyewitness period, so huge chunks of these events will be lost forever unless recounted and recorded.

I have ambivalent feelings about this, because apart from the historic, there is the human element as well, that is often best forgotten.

My way out of this dilemma, is to take a objective position as much as possible; I find that this is one practical way of moving through the stories that I hear and while speaking to people on various sides of the "fence", past and indeed present.

The lake saga for example, put me right in the heart of that turbulent period; My host had immediate family in the wermacht, he still recounts stories of Ustasha and Cossak families committing suicide when they found out that they will be turned over to the russians. ( a group of Croats still meet once a year to commemorate the deed).

In my own home my better half, has family that fought on the Russian front; My parents family, on the other hand were with the Brits. so there you go !

 

The bottom line is that the "fence" is not gone at all; I find I am compelled to discover as much as I can, I dont really know why, so dont ask me!

Maybe, the quest for period weapons and the historical context of their use is but a desire to get to know where we are comming from after all.

 

Anyway, I have waxed lyrical enough :-) I hope to visit the area sometime in Summer if finances allow; I will also try find out what is behind the story of the british Thompsons that sleep with the fish.

 

Vincent

 

 

 

. evidently his group didn't stay long in berlin, and passed on towards the west, how they escaped both the russians AND the ss, he didn't say. i have no reason to dis-believe him, he showed me his soldatbuch. there was a great deal that went on in those last months that history has swept by in the rush to end the war, and with the beginning of the cold war. please keep us posted on any of your adventures, and, again, be safe.

 

[fortyfivecal]

Vincent- in your travels, or research, are you aware of any records the wehrmacht kept of weapons captured, and how they were disposed of? yes, it was a long time ago, and many records were destroyed, but, the germans were very good record keepers. if there are any records surviving, this might answer the question of how the thompsons ended up at the bottom of the lake, especially if serial numbers can be obtained. this is a longshot, but, sometimes those pay off.

[TSMGguy]

Seems like a good way to ditch weapons that were no longer needed, were off of the books, or were incriminating in some way.

 

Every time I go into a gun store and see a M1941 Johnson rifle on the shelf, I ask to see it. The clerk always offers the same story: "This one falls within the USMC serial range." Only one problem: most of the guns ended up buried on a beach just before the Marines left.

 

I'll look forward to folowing your adventures!

 

Very best,

 

Howard

[schatzperson]

45cal,

I suppose you know that there are some very enthusiastic collectors and custodians of german ww2 stuff in Europe and I have some sources, however so far whenever the question of wehrmacht records of captured weapons are concerned there is a big black hole.

The germans kept records of everything they captured and in fact the aamt would make official recommendations of what to do and who to re-issue the equipment to; BUT as far as I know, no such extensive records has surfaced to date.

 

The problems are many; One of which is that during the last days huge amounts of records and evidence were destroyed.

Incriminating records were in fact what was used by the allies to trace some items and prosecute some individuals.

 

Another potential problem is that if such records still lie in "ally" archives, the historic potential has gone, by large, unnoticed.

 

The impression I am getting however is a little different: There is still significant amounts of items that were not carried off to the US or Russia.

It might be difficult to explain that in some parts, for some individuals its not entirely over yet and one meets with an evident reluctance to uncover much of anything. Its difficult to go into this without moving anway from the original subject and into sociology, but what I am saying is that its very likely that these records are still in Germany or Austria.

 

Keeps us all hoping !

 

 

Vincent- in your travels, or research, are you aware of any records the wehrmacht kept of weapons captured, and how they were disposed of? yes, it was a long time ago, and many records were destroyed, but, the germans were very good record keepers. if there are any records surviving, this might answer the question of how the thompsons ended up at the bottom of the lake, especially if serial numbers can be obtained. this is a longshot, but, sometimes those pay off.

 

[schatzperson]

Always a tall story with historic guns :-)

A bit like the cratefull of guns that belonged to Jesse James.

 

 

Seems like a good way to ditch weapons that were no longer needed, were off of the books, or were incriminating in some way.

 

Every time I go into a gun store and see a M1941 Johnson rifle on the shelf, I ask to see it. The clerk always offers the same story: "This one falls within the USMC serial range." Only one problem: most of the guns ended up buried on a beach just before the Marines left.

 

I'll look forward to folowing your adventures!

 

Very best,

 

Howard

 

[ACARLG]

Just in case, I suddenly disappear, you all know what happened ok ? :-)

 

This sounds like the beginning of an H.P. Lovecraft novel.

[Merry Ploughboy]

Sounds like they heard Democrats were coming and had a "boating accident".

[maverick4440]

This reminds me of a woman I worked for about 4 years ago here in Montana. Her husband owns a big ranch here and he married her when she was 16 and he was part of the occupation force that stayed in Germany after WW2.

I might as well say where it is because I'll never go there and get any of the stuff and don't know if it's even legal if I could.

She lived in Ansbach Bavaria and was 14 when they got word that the Allies were closing in on the town. She and some friends were at the lake when she saw every German soldier in the area heading to the beach and dumping every weapon and piece of equiptment they had into the lake there and they were tearing off their uniforms and throwing them into the lake as well, Begging borrowing or stealing civilain clothes from anywhere they could find them.

She said as the Americans entered the town the germans left and what equiptment didn't manage to get thrown in the lake was sitting on the beach.

She said her and her friends found "Little bombs with wooden handles" and they couldn't figure out how to make them work.

I'm sure she was talking about German Grenades.

She had no reason to make any of that up, She s a very well off ranch wife who only talked about it after I told her I had some interest in WW2.

She was very funny calling the Americans "Enemy" several times then quickly correcting herself to say Americans.

Edited May 31, 2009 by maverick4440

[Bob@rat-tat-tat]

Vincent,

 

I was in the U.S. Army and stationed in Germany in 1968-1970. I remember reading an article in "The Stars and Stripes" magazine that the Army had to drain the large "pond" at the entrance to the Kasern in Gelnhausen, Germany to make some sort of repairs. When the water was drained out, they discovered a quantity of weapons and ammunition that the fleeing Germans had tossed in the pond. I remember that the photo with the article showed some interesting items!

 

I was stationed in the town of Friedberg, near Frankfurt, Germany. Our training area was not far away, maybe 20 km. It must have been the scene of some pretty intense fighting, because there were many overgrown shell craters plainly visible. It was not uncommon to discover helmets, weapons and ammunition, sometimes just under the leaves of the heavily forrested area. By the time I left Germany, I had quite a "collection" of German helmets, bayonets and other small items that I started on my first trip there. Each time we went back, I always looked for "new" items to add to my collection. Of course, all of it was rusted, but some of the items were in surprisingly good condition. I found a couple of stick grenades and a Panzerfaust rocket, but I turned all of that stuff over to be destroyed. I didn't find any weapons myself, but some of my friends found the remnants of K98Ks, MP40s and I remember one guy finding an MP44. The MP44 ended up hanging on the wall of the "rod and gun club". I would love to go back there today with a metal detector.

[james m]

Well I guess it's time for war stories. My uncle was among some of the first troops that entered Germany. Upon going into a relatively small town they discovered a storeroom with many cases of new P 38s. Their C O ordered that they be disposed of and this was accomplished by dumping case after case of them into a nearby river. He has told me many times over the years stories about the incredible amount of firearms of all types that was just laying around for the taking. Footsoldiers like him tended to discard Thompsons for a M1 Carbine at the earliest opportunity because of the weight differential. He also told me that virtually every soldier has some type of pistol as a backup; usually a GI 45 or a captured Luger or P 38.

Here's one of my favorite vet purchases:

Jim

http://i220.photobucket.com/albums/dd17/italiansport/2007_0727hi-power0002.jpg

 

http://i220.photobucket.com/albums/dd17/italiansport/2007_0727hi-power0005.jpg

Edited May 31, 2009 by james m