M65 2013 Updated Info

[mikemarvin]

Hey all,
This year with many people helping, a lot more info has turned up on the Reising M65.
We know now that the original USMC spec M65 has serials from 1 to at least 10000.
So far the highest serial number that has been noted is 99xx, on the USMC spec rifle.
It is not known at this time if any of the first 10,000 rifles were sold to civilians.
Starting around number 10000 the civilian M65 was sold to the public near the end of WW2.
These rifles have some differences from the military rifles.
From about 10,000 to 20,000 (aprox) the M65 have these improvements/changes.
The highest serial number of these noted, so far is 185xx.
The lowest serial number of these noted so far is 118xx.
The differences on the civilian M65 include:
A slimmer stock without crossbolts,
A newer style bolt lock, (the new bolt lock has it's 2 screws at the very left and right ends of the bolt lock slide.)
A trigger adustment screw,
A different disconnector, (it now has a hinged "beak" on the front end)
The civilian M65 was produced with a parkerized finish just like the USMC M65,
the company explained that due to the ongoing war effort this was the only finish available.
They stated that after the war the rifles would be blued.
In late 1945 the M165 was introduced. It was blued.
Please contribute any pictures and info you have on your M65's.
Thanks,
Mike

[dalbert]

mikemarvin,

 

I agree that there has been some good data collection and findings in regards to the Model 65 in the last few years. I applaud anyone who wishes to further the study. However, I want to be careful that in instances where ambiguity exists, that certain things are not represented as fact, when we do not have any representative examples to show. There are a few statements in your post that I need to call out, and ask for evidentiary support, before they become quoted as fact. They are as follows:

 

1. Does anyone have an example of a Model 65 serial number below 101? Serial number ranges can start at any number, and I’m not sure we can say for certain that production began at serial number 1. Serial numbers often start at 101. The lowest serial number I have record of is 498. (I now have 105 serial number examples in my spreadsheet for the M65 and its variants)
2. The highest serial number I have on record is 18489. I think Cass may have one on his list that is about 100 units later, but I have not seen any in the 19000 or 20000 range. I know that 20000 is probably a round up on your part, but I want to be careful to project the serial number range any higher than what has been observed.
3. The 10,000 production figure for Marine Corps units is unsubstantiated at this point. A production figure of 6000+ (I’m away from my Batha book at the moment) has been stated, but the documentary evidence source is not stated.
4. The Model 165 was introduced in May, 1945.

 

Please don’t take this post the wrong way. I just want to clarify a few statements for the record. I welcome more interest on the subject!

 

David Albert

dalbert@sturmgewehr.com

[mikemarvin]

Hi David,

As far as serial # 1 on the M65, I was quoting something that you had posted on gunboards.com/the.22caliberforum in Oct. 2012.

 

(quote) "The Batha book is a good guide, but it has several inaccuracies in the Model 65 chapter.

On the subject of H&R WWII serial numbers, my observations are as follows:"
Starting serial numbers over for new models was consistent with H&R practices during the WWII period from what I have observed for their Reising family of firearms.

• Serial numbers appear to have started at 1 for Reising Model 50 Submachine Guns (although the Paratrooper variant Model 55's were produced within the Model 50 serial number range)
• Serial numbers appear to have started at 1 for Reising Model 60 Semi-Automatic Carbines
• Serial numbers appear to have started at 1 for Model 65 .22 Rifles
• Serial numbers appear to have started at 1 for Model 165 “Leatherneck” Rifles" (end quote)

So I took that to mean that you had verified that.

Since I discovered this fine forum I have always taken your info as being top-notch. I really mean that!

There's a lot of mis-information on the net regarding these rifles and the last thing I want to do is add any more bad info.

As far as 10,000 of the USMC spec rifles, I've seen listings of as high as 99xx, so I am saying they were made at least to 10,000.

They could go as high as 11,000.

The lowest serial # that I have seen listed of the rifles with the new features available for sale to civilians so far is 11,xxx.

Other people have stated that the new features started around ser # 10,000, so I went with that.

The highest number I have seen listed is 185xx on the rifles with the new features.

When I first started researching these rifles everyone believed that there were 6,000 USMC spec rifles made.

They further said that the MC58 continued numbering from there when they were made in the 1950's.

We've seen that the M65 numbering continued right through the same numbering as the MC58.

So while I did say (aprox) 10,000 of the original spec rifles and (aprox) 10,000 more of the newer spec M65's,

the true final numbers are not known at this time.

Also, at this time there is not substantiated proof that any of the first 10,000 were sold to civilians.

So please allow me a little leeway as I hunt down more info.

Again, I'm not claiming to know it all, I'm just trying to push this info further.

With everybody contributing info and pictures we should be able to uncover some of the missing info.

Thanks,

Mike

[emmagee1917]

The theory that the number of Marines purchased M65s ended just below that of the begining of the MC58 is just that , a theory . But how often has a using branch of the armed services of the United States has specified the begining or the " serial number block " of a group of small arms ? I can only think of when a number of different makers were producing the same item at the same time ( Garands , M1911s and Carbines come to mind ) so as to not have two of the same model in inventory with the same serial # . So I tend to agree with this theory based on purchacing practice history . It is also based in part on the size of the Marines in WW2 and just how many M65s they needed to train thier men it thier short time in basic and the fact that many never saw or used them. It is known that H&R recieved permission to continue mfg. after thier contract was filled , so the production had to go somewhere . Other branches give no indication of thier use , no lend lease or other export info has come to light , so civilian or DSC sales are left.

my .02 .

Chris

[dalbert]

The theory that the number of Marines purchased M65s ended just below that of the begining of the MC58 is just that , a theory . But how often has a using branch of the armed services of the United States has specified the begining or the " serial number block " of a group of small arms ? I can only think of when a number of different makers were producing the same item at the same time ( Garands , M1911s and Carbines come to mind ) so as to not have two of the same model in inventory with the same serial # . So I tend to agree with this theory based on purchacing practice history . It is also based in part on the size of the Marines in WW2 and just how many M65s they needed to train thier men it thier short time in basic and the fact that many never saw or used them. It is known that H&R recieved permission to continue mfg. after thier contract was filled , so the production had to go somewhere . Other branches give no indication of thier use , no lend lease or other export info has come to light , so civilian or DSC sales are left.

my .02 .

Chris

 

Chris,

 

Good analysis. I think one day, we will prove it all out, one way or another, with Marine Corps records.

 

Hi David,

As far as serial # 1 on the M65, I was quoting something that you had posted on gunboards.com/the.22caliberforum in Oct. 2012.

 

(quote) "The Batha book is a good guide, but it has several inaccuracies in the Model 65 chapter.

 

On the subject of H&R WWII serial numbers, my observations are as follows:"

Starting serial numbers over for new models was consistent with H&R practices during the WWII period from what I have observed for their Reising family of firearms.

 

• Serial numbers appear to have started at 1 for Reising Model 50 Submachine Guns (although the Paratrooper variant Model 55's were produced within the Model 50 serial number range)
• Serial numbers appear to have started at 1 for Reising Model 60 Semi-Automatic Carbines
• Serial numbers appear to have started at 1 for Model 65 .22 Rifles
• Serial numbers appear to have started at 1 for Model 165 “Leatherneck” Rifles" (end quote)

So I took that to mean that you had verified that.

Since I discovered this fine forum I have always taken your info as being top-notch. I really mean that!

There's a lot of mis-information on the net regarding these rifles and the last thing I want to do is add any more bad info.

As far as 10,000 of the USMC spec rifles, I've seen listings of as high as 99xx, so I am saying they were made at least to 10,000.

They could go as high as 11,000.

The lowest serial # that I have seen listed of the rifles with the new features available for sale to civilians so far is 11,xxx.

Other people have stated that the new features started around ser # 10,000, so I went with that.

The highest number I have seen listed is 185xx on the rifles with the new features.

When I first started researching these rifles everyone believed that there were 6,000 USMC spec rifles made.

They further said that the MC58 continued numbering from there when they were made in the 1950's.

We've seen that the M65 numbering continued right through the same numbering as the MC58.

So while I did say (aprox) 10,000 of the original spec rifles and (aprox) 10,000 more of the newer spec M65's,

the true final numbers are not known at this time.

Also, at this time there is not substantiated proof that any of the first 10,000 were sold to civilians.

So please allow me a little leeway as I hunt down more info.

Again, I'm not claiming to know it all, I'm just trying to push this info further.

With everybody contributing info and pictures we should be able to uncover some of the missing info.

Thanks,

Mike

 

Mike,

 

Looking back on my post you quoted, I should probably have further qualified my statements about the serial number ranges starting at 1. I qualified each statement with "appear to have started at 1." I should probably have said "appear to have started at 1, although examples of serial numbers under 3 digits have not yet been documented." I think it's equally possible that they started at serial number 1 as it is they started at 101.

 

I hope my nitpicking is taken as just that...Like you, I have noted a lot of misinformation on the internet about the Model 65's, and I'm trying to do my best to stick to the facts as they are proven. I appreciate and share your enthusiasm, and look forward to any new information that can be found.

 

David Albert

dalbert@sturmgewehr.com

[n64atlas]

The theory that the number of Marines purchased M65s ended just below that of the begining of the MC58 is just that , a theory . But how often has a using branch of the armed services of the United States has specified the begining or the " serial number block " of a group of small arms ? I can only think of when a number of different makers were producing the same item at the same time ( Garands , M1911s and Carbines come to mind ) so as to not have two of the same model in inventory with the same serial # . So I tend to agree with this theory based on purchacing practice history . It is also based in part on the size of the Marines in WW2 and just how many M65s they needed to train thier men it thier short time in basic and the fact that many never saw or used them. It is known that H&R recieved permission to continue mfg. after thier contract was filled , so the production had to go somewhere . Other branches give no indication of thier use , no lend lease or other export info has come to light , so civilian or DSC sales are left.

my .02 .

Chris

 

The Mossber 44US was purchased in block. There were 6 total as I recall. Only 4 blocks were issued by the military. The last two were never used, though they were in inventory. The CMP sold these several years ago. I bought two for my nephews when they were first released. Both were out of the un--issued lots. I believe most of the Kimber 82G were also never issued as well as the MC-58's.

A couple of questions comes to mind, were all the M65's issued? Were some in inventory and destroyed during the Clinton era? From what was said in "The Reising Story". M65's were sold at the same time they were making then for the military. If this is true, then why would the serial numbers for the civilian rifles be over 10,000? The statement that around 6000 were issued would make sense if those were sold in one block to the USMC. Then any after that point could have went to the military or the public. All depends on orders from their customers and the military. It also said in "The Reising Story" that the M65 was not a good seller.

[emmagee1917]

We know the M65 was developed / made for the Marines at thier request . Therefore they had the first shot at it and thier order was filled first. The other branches did not order any ( that we know off ) , so all went to the Marines. After the order was filled , they recieved the OK to continue to produce them . This really means the assembly line was allowed to remain intact in case of further need . Any further production had to recieve another ok , as the war effort limited raw material and manpower time availability . As far as we know , no further orders came from the Marines or any other branch. Any made would have required DSC approval or possibly a few small sales from guns left over from the Marine contract . I really don't think military and civilian orders were made at the same time EXCEPT the very late Marine Corp order for some " special" target guns for the matches right at the end of the war. I THINK these might have been the first with the new " post-10,000" changes to give a better trigger and more reliability with " the beak " , but we don't know for sure.

All M65s were delivered that the Marines ordered. Like most firearms , some just stayed in racks , some were used alot on ranges , but , as these were .22s , very few saw oversea's use , the front or battle.

Chris

[n64atlas]

I have now seen three M65 Reisings that have a blued finish. One is on Gunbroker, I own one and the other has a parked receiver and blued barrel. It is on RFC forum, H&R section. Two are in the 5000 range and the other is in the 8000 range I think. I can ask the guy on RFC if he has an adjustable trigger and the disconector update. Now I'm wondering if they are factory bled of someone was doing this on a regular basses. One is drilled and tapped the same place as my Jeff Reising M65. There was also a M150 on Gunbroker that is the standard version with out a checkered stock.