Garand Conversion To Bm59

[audibk]

Hi Guys,

 

Found this forum after reading some of Boeboe's posts in other places. I would like to make a BM59 from a Garand and need your help.

 

Here is the plan. Modify a Garand receiver with carbide tools and EDM to avoid the whole anneal/heat treat stuff. (Need prints and dimensions)

 

Grind the bolt and extractor (need prints and dimensions)

 

Already ordered complete trigger group, bolt stop, bolt stop pin and spring from Reese Surplus. Need to buy a junk Garand stock for the mods and a Garand 7.62 barrel. Once everthing seems to work I will modify the right stock.

 

Forward latch parts are needed also but was thinking I may be able to make something else work. May look into M14 stuff.

 

Let me know what you think and if you can help.

 

What do you think about a Garand\BM59\M14? Use M14 mags and front catch, BM59 Trigger group, and your basic Garand.

 

What are the mag dimensions of the M14 and BM59. If M14 mags are smaller it would simplify machinig and reduce cost.

 

Any help would be apprecitated.

 

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[Kevin]

Have you thought about using BAR mags an staying with 30-06?

 

[RDS]

Sarco has BM 59 Kits. They also have parts left over from the old Fed Ord/Sante Fe M59 conversions. They heve clip latches marked BM 59 and front mag catch parts and other misc. parts used in the conversion.

[audibk]

I started with a BAR mag and that will probably be part of this project. I like the idea of sticking with the 30-06 and I bought 2 BAR mags from whatacountry.

 

When I get the BM59 parts I will be making the decision on which way to go, BAR, BM59 or M14. The BAR would be cool cause it would sorta be a T20. The BM59 would be a ..... well BM59. And last but not least the M14 would be an rare conversion.

 

The Sarco kits are too expensive, at $595 I could buy a CMP rack grade and a new barrel for less than that and the $595 plus shipping, doesn't include the receiver or the blueprint or the mods. A cheap receiver from CMP is $150 plus shipping, the blueprint to modify it is $30. That's over $900 with shipping and Mag, before I even start the modifications.

Now, if we had 3 people that were interested we could get a good discount. The kits were $695 last Feb so maybe I will wait another year.

 

OR, CMP Racker $372.95 complete, Brand New Barrel $165, BM59 parts $150 from Reese. Still some cash but definitely saving money.

 

So, can anyone give me some rough dimensions on the BM59 and M14 mags. This would help my decision.

 

Thanks,

 

Kevin.

[Kevin]

M14 mag dim:

 

Height- front of mag 5 7/16 inch

Height- rear of mag 5 15/16, follower sticks up another 1/8

Width- front 7/8 ths

Width- rear 1 inch

bottom of mag is level.

Hope this helps,

Kevin

[audibk]

Thanks, do you have the front to back measurement.

 

Seems like they are all about an inch in the rear and the BM59 looks like it is narrower in the front also.

[Kevin]

I knew I forgot something,

Front to back 2 15/16

3 1/8 including mag catch (on back side of mag)

Let me know how it works out, I thought I'd like to do the BAR conversion.

Kevin

[MRJ]

Audibk:While the BM59 mags are the most expensive of the three mag types (BM59, M14, BAR) you are considering, I think BM59 mags may work best for your project due to several factors:

 

1. BM59 mags will match up with the mag catch in the BM59 trigger group you ordered from Reese.

2. BM59 mags are longer than M14 mags and fill the mag opening in a modified Garand receiver better. They also have a slight ramp at the front for better feeding.

3. The BM59 bolt stop is designed to work with BM59 mags and bolts.

 

I would recommend examining a BM59 receiver and bolt prior to deciding which conversion route to take. The machine work necessary on a Garand receiver to accept the from mag catch assembly is somewhat involved and was simplified on the Golden State M59 conversions. The Garand bolt is also very hard and difficult to machine to pass thru the BM59 mag lips. You will also need to fabricate an op rod spring guide tube. BM59's also use a cartridge clip guide (available from Reese but not advertised) which requires a dovetail milled into the top of the receiver.

 

As an added note Sarco's BM59 rifle project is still progressing and I don't think their BM59 parts kit price will be reduced.

 

Building a BM59 clone is a tough project but can be done. A close look at a BM59 will answer many of your questions.

 

Good luck,

MRJ

[audibk]

Thanks for the Input MRJ.

 

I would love to look at a BM59 but the last 2 shows I went to had none. I have a BAR, and M14 dimension from my namesake Kevin (My name is Kevin also)

 

Now I just need some BM59 mag dimensions and a good look at a real BM59SL.

 

My first choice would be to use the BAR mag and try to duplicate the T20E1 that was originally started back in '44. This keeps the 30-06 and would be more interesting I think and saves me the barrel cost. Garand from CMP 375 + conversion costs 200 = 575??

 

I could sell the BM59 trigger group if I don't use it.

 

The M14/M59 conversion to .308 definitely needs a barrel 165 +converson costs 200 + garand 375 so maybe the Sarco kits are only a little overpriced by 200. I'd buy one if I could find 3 other people to get the discount.

 

Will let you know when I get the trigger group.

 

Kevin (audibk)

[Kenshi]

Hey MRJ I am here!!! Moved in just before Christmas. Almost have my shop up and operating.

 

Audibk: You should look at the BM59 Mag before you make a decision. The mag design allows the removal of less material at the front of the mag well on the Garand Receiver. This is a critical stress area on the Receiver.

 

Your method of modifying the receiver to prevent heat treatment warpage was exactly the method that Beretta used to modify Garand Receivers that they inducted for modification to the BM59 standard. They used abrasive grinding to remove the material.

 

As to your barrel, you can set the barrel back 1/2 an inch (also a beretta technique) and the .30.06 barrel now becomes a 7.62x51mm barrel. I am playing with a sleeve to move the barrel band back forward the 1/2 inch that the barrel bobbing took away.

 

I hope to be making BM59 parts real soon.

 

Kenshi

 

AKA Michael Spivey (and BM59_Fan)

Spiveys Lock and Load

Las Vegas NM 87701

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[audibk]

QUOTE (Kenshi @ Apr 11 2006, 10:36 PM)

Audibk:  You should look at the BM59 Mag before you make a decision.  The mag design allows the removal of less material at the front of the mag well on the Garand Receiver.  This is a critical stress area on the Receiver. *** I have looked at that and I feel confident that this is not a problem. ****   As to your barrel, you can set the barrel back 1/2 an inch (also a beretta technique) and the .30.06 barrel now becomes a 7.62x51mm barrel.  I am playing with a sleeve to move the barrel band back forward the 1/2 inch that the barrel bobbing took away.  ****Needs to be reamed and headspaced but possible. I like the idea of moving the Lower Band out the same amount. I have a Garand barrel print here somewhere if you don't have one already. **** I hope to be making BM59 parts real soon. *** Put me on your email list for parts audibk@yahoo.com  ****** Kevin

Hi Kenshi,

[MRJ]

As information, Blake Stevens in "US Rifle M14 from John Garand to the M21" states that feeding difficulties were encountered in the T20 resulting from the pairing of the relatively light M1 bolt with a BAR magazine. To correct this situation required either stiffer magazine springs or a slighly lengthened receiver. In order to maintain interchangeability of magazines between the BAR and T20, the T20 receiver was made .3125" longer than an M1 receiver.

 

MRJ

[audibk]

MRJ, thanks very much for the photos.

 

Yes, thank you, I have read that about the T20 initial development.

 

I think I have some options. If I remember correctly, some of that was due to Full Auto operation. I think in Semi it was ok.

 

Since I prefer not to modify the reciever, I can modify the BAR mags with additional springs, possibly an M14 spring inside of the BAR spring. (I don't need to be interchangeable with BAR mags in the field, a requirement John Garand had) I think there may be something that can be done with the op rod or op rod spring also.

 

What keeps the bolt from banging into the back of the rec? Maybe I can squeese a little from that area or what ever the stop is.

 

Need to go home figure out the stop tonight. This is part of the BM59 mechanism that I need to learn about. What is the stop in the BM59?

 

Thanks for the help!

 

I have a 6 digit Garand rec at the shop to be cut. Should I cut it or get a higher serial number? It's been reparked and has the dark heel.

 

 

[MRJ]

Kevin - I believe that a BM59 bolt's rearward travel is stopped by the op rod stop surface contacting the front of the receiver. The op rod spring is involved also. The bolt stop is more properly referred to as the bolt hold open. When the last round of the magazine has been fired, the follower of the magazine comes into contact with the bolt hold open which blocks forward movement of the bolt.

 

As for selection of an M1 receiver to use in your project, I would suggest using a receiver with the least collector value. A Century Arms receiver or an original GI receiver with cosmetic issue(s) such as pitting would seem to be a good candidate.

 

I'm not familiar with BAR magazines and am curious as to what feature they have to engage a front magazine catch.

 

Thanks much for starting your project and "waking up" our forum.

 

MRJ

[audibk]

I think I will order a different receiver. I can get a grade B for 125 plus shipping and handling.

 

The BM59 trigger group from Reese is mint. The BAR mag only has a rear catch. It must fit the hole pretty tight like an AR which only has a side catch. (I'm guessing here)

 

another forum you may be interested in is here. I post there under the same ID "audibk"

 

Most of the forum is hidden to non-subscribers but it's worth the money to subscribe.

[audibk]

similar thread on CMP forums

 

http://s52.photobucket.com/albums/g32/woofomatic/

 

http://www.odcmp.org/new_forum/topic.asp?T...848&whichpage=2

 

Photos of the differences and the thread.