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870 Wingmaster w/USGI Trench Gun Heatshield?


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#1 cplnorton2

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Posted 15 September 2010 - 08:52 AM

I've posted this on several forums and can't get an answer, I hope someone here will know.

Ok, long story. Saw an ad over at AR15.com. Here is the original ad.

http://www.ar15.com/...&...93&t=800150

So I saw an 870 with a bunch of taticool stuff, especially the surefire forend for a decent price. I thought the heat shield was fake, and the US stampings on the shotgun were fake as well. But I talked the guy down to $400. I was planning on buying a surefire in the next week and they are about $225 or so. So I thought $175 more and get a shotgun with 2 barrels. No brainer. So I drove down to pick it up.

After seeing it in person I don't think it's a bubba job. In fact I almost think it's military. The heat shield I'm sure is original USGI. It is stamped on the other side SP-30-06. It is 6 rows with 29 holes. Looking at it compared to other USGI heat shields online it looks legit. I have a couple fakes, and this one is no where in comparison to them. The quality is really good, and the park job is really, really old. I took it off the barrel and it was a bear to take off. It had been on there a long time. But under the barrel, the slots for the screws on the underside and the bead on the top were both removed and made and then parked over. And it's obviously a very old park job. The US is stamped on the side. I believe it's the original finish. I don't think this was ever reparked. I don't see any evidence of sandblasting.

And after I got the shell sideholder off, it's a wingmaster serial S798647v. It's marked Cyl. on the barrel. I see a J stamp. And I see RFB or RFP, I would guess this is an inspectors mark. But I don't see the barrel date marks, unless the J on the right side by the inspector's stamp is the build date. I got really good pics of all the the writing in the link below.

The finish was really old and dry. I rubbed it down with a rig rag, and it really cleaned up.

But there are a ton of pics on the link below. I pulled off all the tatical crap, and just put the barrel with the heat shield back on with the simple aftermarked stock set. He said that this was the stock set that was on it when he got it. So I know that's not original. But what do you guys think? Military or not?

Here is a link to tons of pics.

http://s621.photobuc...... wingmaster/


I did research it some more and I guess the Marines were doing prototypes for the Mark 1 shotgun. All I can find is prototypes were made both with and without the heatshields. From a few internet sights, I guess this was done in the early 70's. This shotgun was made about 72-73 Remington said when I called them. So is it maybe an armory prototype that leaked into civi hands and had the stock set changed out at a later date?
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#2 cplnorton2

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Posted 15 September 2010 - 11:56 AM

And to add to the mystery. I just found what looks like a civie Ithaca with the same markings on a trench gun adaptor at a rock island auction. It says it was made for US army special forces. Theirs looks like it has stampings on the stock too. But my stocks are missing so I don't know if mine had any or not. Here is a link to the auction.

http://rockislandauc...aid/50/lid/1550
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#3 dalbert

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Posted 15 September 2010 - 07:09 PM

cplnorton2,

I think you did well on the shotgun. The photobucket link took me to a login screen, so I couldn't see your pictures, but I looked at the pictures from the original sale post, and I believe the shroud is correct. The only thing about the shotgun that makes me a little nervous is that the U.S. mark looks very light, almost like it has been buffed for refinishing, but it is probably just a light marking. That being said, I think you did good, and if you end up wanting to sell the shotgun and shroud, and keep all the 'tacticool" stuff for yourself, I'd give you what you paid for it.

If you could post an updated link that doesn't require a login, that would be great.

Thanks for posting!

David Albert
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#4 cplnorton2

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Posted 16 September 2010 - 11:23 AM

Try this link. I took a bunch more pics this morning out in the sunlight to try to get you a better pictures of everything.

870 pics

The US was definelty hand stamped. But one interesting note. I called remington again today. The shotgun dates to the early 70's. And I found it was blued when it was sold new. So it has been refinished. I hadn't thought it was, but it sure has been. After thinking about it, I got a magnifying glass out and examined the US stamp. It was stamped and then sandblasted and then parked over. It was struck before refinishing. I also pulled the heat guard off again examined where the bead sight was, and the slots cut under the barrel for the shroud to fit. They too were done before it was refinished. As you can see evidence of sandblasting on both.

Now looking at the finish, it can't be anything recent. And I don't think back then Bubba would have been good enough to fake it. Maybe today, but you can tell by handling this, it wasn't made recently. The park is old. You can always tell new park compared to old park. And that trench shield was put on by someone who knew what they were doing. And looks like they had done it many times before, because they didn't make one mistake.

I just don't think Bubba would have taken the time to make this. And back then if Bubba wanted a trench gun, he could have probably bought one cheaper through the old DCM or gunshows then he could of got a new Wingmaster, heat shield, and then faked the stamps, and reparked it. It just wouldn't have made sense back then to make one likethis. At least to me it doesn't. Back then trench guns weren't valuable as they are now.

And on the old jouster forum, a guy chimed in he had a 870 just like this many years ago. It had an 18'' barrel just like mine. And it had an ithaca trench gun heatshield attached to it. And I think my heatshield is an Ithaca as well. He said the guy he got it from attained it from military channels and that it was a navy seal gun. Hard telling on the seal connection. But I just think there is something to this 870.

From what I researched, in Vietnam the military bought a lot of commercial shotguns and put them into service. One being the 870. As there are many accounts of 870's being used in the military by veterans. But no real huge military orders were place for 870's, until later on when the Marines ordered the Mark 1. So most say the 870's over there were commercial made guns without ordnance markings. With mine, maybe some young armorer thought it looked naked compared to a Winchester M12 or 1897 and tried to put a US stamp on the side. Hard telling where that came from. But I know when I worked in the Armory I hand stamped some weapons. So anything is possible I guess.

Let me know what you guys think. Originally, I thought this was fake, but the more I research it and examine it, I really think this one might be genuine military used shotgun.

And on selling it, I've kinda got fond of it the past couple days. As it looks nice in my safe next to my WWII model 12 trench. It I decide to sell it I will let you have first dibs at it though.

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#5 cplnorton2

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Posted 16 September 2010 - 01:28 PM

Might have found one. Is this an 870 or winchester 1200. I can never tell.


Edited by cplnorton2, 16 September 2010 - 01:53 PM.

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#6 cplnorton2

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Posted 17 September 2010 - 09:04 PM

QUOTE (cplnorton2 @ Sep 16 2010, 02:28 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Might have found one. Is this an 870 or winchester 1200. I can never tell.




I found out it's a 1200. I was wrong as usual. smile.gif
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#7 dalbert

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Posted 18 September 2010 - 08:06 PM

cplnorton2,

After seeing your photos, I would say that the possibility that the markings on this shotgun might be fake were increased in my mind. However, I think you present a very plausible explanation for it, and it falls into a group of shotguns that were pressed into service, and not necessarily manufactured specifically for military use, causing them to potentially be added to, remarked, etc., once in military hands. I think it's a good, legitimate find. I saw that you're looking for a wood stock for it on Sturmgewehr.com, and hope you find one soon.

Thanks for posting!

David Albert
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#8 cplnorton2

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Posted 18 September 2010 - 09:07 PM

QUOTE (dalbert @ Sep 18 2010, 09:06 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
cplnorton2,

After seeing your photos, I would say that the possibility that the markings on this shotgun might be fake were increased in my mind. However, I think you present a very plausible explanation for it, and it falls into a group of shotguns that were pressed into service, and not necessarily manufactured specifically for military use, causing them to potentially be added to, remarked, etc., once in military hands. I think it's a good, legitimate find. I saw that you're looking for a wood stock for it on Sturmgewehr.com, and hope you find one soon.

Thanks for posting!

David Albert
dalbert@sturmgewehr.com



Yeah I've been throwing it around. It's just anyone's guess on whether it's real or not. I think I will just hang on it and maybe someday another one will pop up somewhere or maye a picture will show up. It's hard telling.

Do you think the heatshield is legit USGI though?

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#9 dalbert

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Posted 18 September 2010 - 09:42 PM

QUOTE (cplnorton2 @ Sep 18 2010, 10:07 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
QUOTE (dalbert @ Sep 18 2010, 09:06 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
cplnorton2,

After seeing your photos, I would say that the possibility that the markings on this shotgun might be fake were increased in my mind. However, I think you present a very plausible explanation for it, and it falls into a group of shotguns that were pressed into service, and not necessarily manufactured specifically for military use, causing them to potentially be added to, remarked, etc., once in military hands. I think it's a good, legitimate find. I saw that you're looking for a wood stock for it on Sturmgewehr.com, and hope you find one soon.

Thanks for posting!

David Albert
dalbert@sturmgewehr.com



Yeah I've been throwing it around. It's just anyone's guess on whether it's real or not. I think I will just hang on it and maybe someday another one will pop up somewhere or maye a picture will show up. It's hard telling.

Do you think the heatshield is legit USGI though?


Yes, I think the heatshield is legit.

David
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#10 Mike-Tornado Technologies

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Posted 05 February 2011 - 07:38 PM

cplnorton2,

Can you post an updated link to the pics, the old ones aren't working.
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#11 Robgunbuilder

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Posted 16 April 2011 - 12:35 PM

I looked at your photos and the US markings look bogus to me. I can't begin to count the number of bogus Hand stamped US markings on just about any possible Military shotgun I've seen. The heat shield is interesting and may in fact be Military. There were a bunch of win. 1200 handguards floating around, that date from the 1970's with only the number 119XXXXXXX on them. They were reportedly replacement handguards for the 1200's but have shown up on M12's M97's. I would not read too much into this gun, just enjoy it for what it is.-Rob
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#12 J.F. Bell

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Posted 26 June 2011 - 02:30 PM

Interesting animal. I have pictures of something similar, though since I don't have any background on the gun itself they picture may not be of much use. From what I recall this one was also a Wingmaster, albeit blued and modified to work with an extended magazine.



The data placard for this particular weapon:



If you squint really hard you might can make it out. As near as I can tell it reads -

QUOTE
Remington Model 870 Slide Action Shotgun "Trench Gun"
Maker: Remington Arms Company
Ilion, New York
Serial No: 967962
Gauge: 12
(unreadable): 1964 - Present
Catalogue No: 1.7.95.50

Remington Arms Museum Collection - on loan from the Remington Arms Company.

During the Vietnam War, Remington fixed bayonet attachments to a number of Model 870 'Riot Guns' for use in clearing tunnel complexes of enemy forces.


Not sure about that, but...like I said, it's not one of mine and I didn't do the research.
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#13 WeaponsSgt

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Posted 09 October 2013 - 01:43 PM

Hi guys I just foumd one of thies shotguns. I have a few questions the mag tube on the one I found is normal length. And the gun is chambered in a magnum 3inch and the gun it self was made in 1954. There is no US markings on it but has all the trench stuff on it. I will try to get pics asap.
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#14 WeaponsSgt

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Posted 09 October 2013 - 01:52 PM

Aparantly my pics are to big and I don't know how to make them smaller. I can send pics via email.
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#15 dalbert

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Posted 09 October 2013 - 08:20 PM

WeaponsSgt,

 

Here are the photos you sent me via e-mail:

 

Attached File  PART_1381328592722.jpg   106.46K   18 downloads

Attached File  PART_1381328612037.jpg   42.67K   20 downloads

Attached File  PART_1381328751235.jpg   38.04K   21 downloads

Attached File  PART_1381328641304.jpg   64.21K   26 downloads

Attached File  PART_1381328786139.jpg   79.46K   30 downloads

Attached File  PART_1381328839696.jpg   57.02K   21 downloads

 

David Albert

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#16 mongoose

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Posted 18 November 2013 - 09:53 AM

I've gotten more and more skeptical as I research "real" trench guns vs high quality fakes. I'm building a replica and want accuracy not forgery.

Nevertheless, its not difficult to fake anything as perception is our worst human asset. I'm not calling BS but military arms, as we all know, were not rushed into service post WW2 in the US. Third world countries had all sorts of things showing up. That being said, it is possible to find reworks that "joe" did in the field or a pvt weapon taken into theater that was highly modified.

Point is case, I purchased an old Model 12 in 1996 because it had a trench barrel but not a single ordinance stamp. IMA and Sarco were both selling heat shelds at the time so it would have been fairly simple to antique the shield and claim the rifle was sent to war by uncle jimbo to pvt smith....remember the weapons act that prohibited mailing military use arms direct wasn't until 1954. 1968 was another one but related to all of us.

Just my two cents.
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