Reising Model 65 “The General” Sporter Model Rifle

[dalbert]

I have a subject that I don’t think has been specifically discussed before, and I want to ask for your input. It involves the 2 different styles of H&R Reising Model 65 Rifles, known as “The General,” and what exactly became the final sporter configuration of the rifle.

 

First, some background…Most folks don’t realize there were 2 versions of the WWII H&R manual for the Reising Model 50 Submachine Gun. The 1942 version had 47 pages, while the 1943 version had 48 pages. Both were distributed for free to interested customers through the mail as H&R sought to maintain customer connections while focused on the war effort. The reason for the extra page in 1943 was to include an advertisement for the Reising Model 65 .22 rifle for civilian use. In the ad, H&R mentions details of 2 different versions of the Model 65 rifle available for civilian sale.

 

The ad indicates that the Model 65 could be purchased in military configuration, or in a lighter, sporter configuration. Both rifles were referred to as “The General,” although none were marked as such. The weight of the sporter version was listed as approximately 7 lbs, while the military model was 8.75 lbs.

 

In a letter that accompanied the sale of Model 65’s during wartime, H&R said that “when conditions permit, this gun will be manufactured in the Sporter Model as planned.” It also indicated that the military style front sight would be replaced with a “ramp sight of more conventional design.”

 

The letter can be seen at the following link:

 

http://www.sturmgewehr.com/dalbert/Reising/M65Letter_Web.JPG

 

I had never examined what I thought might be a sporter version of the rifle until I bought another Model 65 recently. I didn’t realize all the physical details of what I bought beforehand, because it was purchased in an online auction, and there were only a couple of photos. I was mostly interested in the extras that came with the rifle. When I received the rifle, I noticed it had a comb style stock, and a plastic buttplate. I thought maybe it was a Model 65 in a Model 165 stock. Then I noticed the stock was shorter than a normal Model 65, but still had the metal studs showing on the front of the stock, just like military style Model 65’s. These studs are not present on Model 165 stocks.

 

Here are some photos of a normal, military style H&R Reising Model 65 on the top, and my new rifle on the bottom. Please disregard the front sight on the bottom rifle. It has a replacement hooded sight, and the rifle came with the original Garand style sight, but I want to shoot it with the hooded sight before I return it to the original configuration. You will notice the main differences are in the length and style of the rear of the stock.

 

http://www.sturmgewehr.com/dalbert/Reising/Sporter_Comparison-1_Web.JPG

 

http://www.sturmgewehr.com/dalbert/Reising/Sporter_Comparison-2_Web.JPG

 

It seems apparent that in 1943, H&R didn’t have all the specifics finalized for the sporter model. According to the information I have, it was supposed to have a lighter stock, a ramp front sight, and a blued finish. I’m not sure H&R incorporated those changes prior to beginning production of the Model 165 in May, 1945. The verbiage I have found speaks to the sporter model in the future tense, so I take it to be what H&R intended for the sporter model at the time, which probably changed after it was written.

 

Here is a low res copy of an ad for the Reising Model 65 "The General" rifle from WWII. I need to get a higher resolution copy to determine if it provides any more insight.

 

http://www.sturmgewehr.com/dalbert/Reising/General1943_Web.JPG

 

So, what’s your opinion on my purchase? Do you think this a Model 65 sporter model? I think this may be it. Does anyone have another example with the same, or different characteristics than a normal Model 65?

 

David Albert

dalbert@sturmgewehr.com

[n64atlas]

Does it have the normal markings on the barrel? The add shows the comb cut but not as pronounced

as yours and the add apears to have a standard butt plate. Though they did say it wasn't a final production

rifle yet.

More detailed pics, please.

One of the 165's I picked up is in a standard M65 stock. That is the one with a dovetail cut in the barrel for

a Winchester rear sight, made for the Winchester 32 Special lever action.

Has anyone determined how to tell the regular civilian M65 from the military one?

[emmagee1917]

Pull the actions from the stock and check for an extra screw around the trigger to adjust pull . Also check the end of the bar that runs forward to see if it has a little spring loaded " beak" or not .

Chris

[dalbert]

More detailed pics, please.

 

Pull the actions from the stock and check for an extra screw around the trigger to adjust pull . Also check the end of the bar that runs forward to see if it has a little spring loaded " beak" or not .

Chris

 

The actions are the same, and there is no trigger adjustment feature. H&R described the actions as being identical, so I would not expect any differences.

 

I forgot to mention that the "sporter" has a plastic grip cap. You can see it in the photos below.

 

http://www.sturmgewehr.com/dalbert/Reising/Sporter_Comparison-4_Web.JPG

 

http://www.sturmgewehr.com/dalbert/Reising/Sporter_Comparison-3_Web.JPG

 

David Albert

dalbert@sturmgewehr.com

[emmagee1917]

I have # 1485 ( regular M65) , #2615 ( regular M65 with suppressor added [ aka rat rifle ] ) and # 14063 with the modifications noted.

The first two are USMC WW2 issue , the third is late commercial , post war commercial , or a postwar match version.

Chris

[n64atlas]

I thought they stopped making the M65 in 1945 and started the M165. There might have been some over run as they used up M65 actions ect.

I have seen some rifles withe M65 actions and later barrels. These may have been rebuilt buy some gunsmith though. There might be more "variants"

than we know about, considering shortages after WWII.

[mikemarvin]

Hi all,

There's a stock listed for auction with the comb cuts like yours, no metal studs in the stock, can't tell the length, and dosn't appear to have an original guard. It looks like the butt plate is like yours. It's claimed to be all original, from a model 65 with serial of 87XX. I think that a lot of these rifles had repairs over the years and that their current owners are not aware of some of the changes. This adds more myths and misinformation to the history of these beautiful Reising .22lr's.

 

If the link is not allowed, I apologize, and ask that the mods please delete the link.

Thanks,

Mike

 

http://www.ebay.com/itm/200929961058

[dalbert]

Hi all,

There's a stock listed for auction with the comb cuts like yours, no metal studs in the stock, can't tell the length, and dosn't appear to have an original guard. It looks like the butt plate is like yours. It's claimed to be all original, from a model 65 with serial of 87XX. I think that a lot of these rifles had repairs over the years and that their current owners are not aware of some of the changes. This adds more myths and misinformation to the history of these beautiful Reising .22lr's.

 

If the link is not allowed, I apologize, and ask that the mods please delete the link.

Thanks,

Mike

 

http://www.ebay.com/itm/200929961058

 

Mike,

 

I saw that auction today, and the stock is not identified correctly. That's a Model 165 stock.

 

David Albert

dalbert@sturmgewehr.com

[dalbert]

.....and # 14063 with the modifications noted.

The first two are USMC WW2 issue , the third is late commercial , post war commercial , or a postwar match version.

Chris

 

Chris,

 

Please clarify...Your #14063 "with the modifications noted"...Is it like the "sporter" model I just purchased?

 

David Albert

dalbert@sturmgewehr.com

[emmagee1917]

No , it is marked as an M65 and looks like a normal M65 from the outside . Found the difference after I opened her up. I heard that those after around 10,000 ish had these changes.

Chris

[mikemarvin]

Hi Chris,

Please confirm whether or not #14063 has a parkerized or blued finish. I have #14101 M65 with parkerized fininish and the trigger adjustment feature.

I have # 1485 ( regular M65) , #2615 ( regular M65 with suppressor added [ aka rat rifle ] ) and # 14063 with the modifications noted.

The first two are USMC WW2 issue , the third is late commercial , post war commercial , or a postwar match version.

Chris

[emmagee1917]

Parked . Looks just like a USMC M65 from the outside.

Chris

[mikemarvin]

Hi Chris,

According to my Father in law, this one, 14101, was purchased in the Bronx, NYC, NY after he had turned 18 yrs old, he was born in Aug 1925, so he turned 18 in 1943.

This rifle and yours both appear to be the real, war time "General" as described in the letter that David posted in the M65 FAQs. Both have the parkerized finish and the options that were mentioned in the letter. The letter states that during the war the rifles sold to citizens would only be available in military specs but with some modifications which will continue on the post war civilian models.

In 1945 the M165 was introduced, so there was only a very short time that these rifles were available in military spec.

The "General" was available during and after the war. The post war rifles were produced with blued finish and the lightened stock. Although there was use of military spec parts in assembly of early retail guns.

Is there serial number data available that can accurately pinpoint date of manufacture?

Is David's new rifle close to these in serial number?

Thanks,

Mike

 

 

http://www.sturmgewehr.com/dalbert/Reising/M65Letter_Web.JPG

[dalbert]

Mike,

 

There are no known serial number records, but I have hope that maybe some Marine records are filed somewhere. The serial number of my "sporter" Model 65 is 4017, so it is within what most believe is the Marine Corps range. I don't necessarily follow the conventional thought that all 6000 or so Marine M65's were produced in a continuous serial number block. My theory is that some were made available to civilians soon after they began production. I base this on various ads, and also the Reising Model 50 manual verbiage in regards to the Model 65. We just don't have a lot of clear information on them, and that is why I started a spreadsheet of serial numbers in which I have documented the subtle variations I have observed or that have been reported.

 

I'm not sure if my newest Model 65 is necessarily the official "sporter" model, but it looks like it might be a step in the progress of such a model. Two things I've observed in late Model 65's is a stock without the visible studs in the forend, and now we have 2 instances of Model 65's in the 14,000 serial number range having adjustable triggers. I think production was already starting to incorporate some of the features which became standard in May 1945 with the Model 165.

 

David Albert

dalbert@sturmgewehr.com

[emmagee1917]

I agree as to no positive manufacture to date chart. That is why I could not pin down my 14063 closer till your info of 14101 being around in 1943. Puts them a couple of years ealier han I thought.

David , the M65 was made at the request of the USMC , and they were the only military branch that used them AFAIK . All first production would have gone to them , with maybe an odd exception here or there . The question remains of how many they bought . The 5-6,000 figure is based on thier request that the MC58 serials start there in the '50s.After thier order was filled , they recieved permission to continue production for the civilian market due to the availability of thier production line and parts . Also , they might have thought additional guns might be needed later by the USMC or others. There is no record of any additional purchaces , though.

Chris

[mikemarvin]

Hi David,

Is there any date on the letter you have? The serial number of your new rifle seems so low to have come in the sporter version. But without any list of gun numbers there's no way to check. Is it possible that yours is an early M65 that has had the stock replaced? I've read that the factory had to hand fit each rifle to it's stock, even a replacement stock from the manufacturer required that the rifle be sent to the factory for fitting. Does yours have any assembly numbers on the stock and the butt plate? Also, yours has the sporter style stock with studs in the front. Do you have another with the sporter style but no studs?

Mine, #14101, has the original shape stock, but no studs. It also has the trigger adjustment feature. So does Chris' number 14063.

Mine has been in our family since it was new.

Hey Chris, is there any assembly numbers on your stock? Does yours have the front studs?

Thanks,

Mike

[emmagee1917]

I've never heard of the need to fit them. All of them seem to drop right in. That's why it's hard to know if one's been changed or not. Now , they might have been stamped on the end of the butt , under the buttplate. That was ( is ? ) common so as to fit the buttplate , stamp the two , separate them to be finished ( stained , parked , etc. ) then brought back together for final assembly. Simply ease of matching them back together.

I'd have to drag them out to check on studs . I hope I've not switched any by accident. Number 2615 had wood that was so dry it had cracked from cocking slot through to the rear troggerguard screw. It was also so "wet" that large patches actually felt spongey . It was my first one and it took awhile to find a loose spare stock , so I switched with the others till I found one. Now I realize that the stock may have had a type of jungle rot in it , but I can't find it anywhere. Might have tossed it .

Chris

[mikemarvin]

Is # 2615 rifle itself very worn like if used as a trainer? Or nice condition as if one Marine used it and kept it nice.

The "General" parts list in the Reising FAQ's lists a replacement stock assembly as having to be fitted at the factory.

When you can, check # 14063 for stock studs. Did you ever check the butt plate and stock for assembly numbers/letters on this rifle?

Mike

 

http://www.sturmgewehr.com/dalbert/MGBoards/GeneralParts_Web.JPG

[dalbert]

I have evidence that stocks were hand fitted. I'll take a picture of a small shim on the inside of the stock on one of my Model 65's when I get a chance.

 

David Albert

dalbert@sturmgewehr.com

[emmagee1917]

Number 1485 is a well worn , but not mistreated , trainer. Number 2615 has seen use , but not nearly as much. It's condition is prob'ly why it was choosen to be suppressed . It prob'ly stayed in the supply dumps after that and prob'ly not shot that much. It's worn finish was prob'ly more from oiling than anything else. Number 14063 was almost new .

Chris