fifthmdec Posted December 15, 2016 Report Share Posted December 15, 2016 Does anyone have a Rewat with the name or business on the receiver. Looking at one with a company name on the receiver.I know the name, but the tube looks unmolested. Having the seller do a FIOA request via snail mail. I did a FOIA request on line 3 years ago online and out of 3 I have only one that showed up. They are 3 DEWATS.., Anyway, I just want to make sure that it was was a papered DEWAT and not a Form 1 manufacturer using the receivers SN. It is a non matching SN firearm and if it was Rewated, then it was a clean job. It seems to have some light marks or mild discoloration on the receiver. I have only seen some photos. The business name is on the form 4. I do know that some individuals and, or businesses have put their mark on REWATS... But, like some imports of the pre may stuff, they are not always marked. The ATF seems to prefer an ID mark on REWATS... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Black River Militaria CII Posted December 15, 2016 Report Share Posted December 15, 2016 You note that a "business name" is on the F4 but you do not indicate whether the name is a CII business, an individual, etc or is the name of the German factory, or some other ID that indicates vintage manufacture. If an FFL/SOT with a US address lIsted then the gun is not a reactivated DEWAT. DEWAT registrations list the original factory, country of origin or other info indicating vintage manufacture and that ID does not change, ever. Reactivated DEWATs are required to be marked on the receiver with ID and location of the FFL/SOT or individual that does the work, but the registration ID does not change from that of the original registration. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fifthmdec Posted December 15, 2016 Author Report Share Posted December 15, 2016 The company is JP Foote & CO, Marietta GA and their mark is on the receiver. The receiver is an original per Dennis Todd at the SAR show. He stated that the markings near the SN are the Hanel, the eagle over the 37 Waffenamt that were seen on many Hanel receives. Looks like it is a 1940 receiver as it has 40 on the underside of the receiver near the barrel nut. Also, it has the COS below the 40 and another mark. According to Frank Iannamico's Blitzkrieg book, it appears to be Merz Werk. Everything points to an original MP 40, I did notice the the letter C was stamped below the SN and eagle. It is a 7k 4 digit series number. Having sub contractors were not unusual on German MG's. We have had several WWII German MG's that have sub contractor's marks. All that I have is close up photos as the gun is in another state. We both want to make certain that it is a C&R and a FOIA request seems to be a prudent way to settle it. A SAR article about JP Foote, stated that he once worked in the Marietta GA plant with the Ingram MACs. He did form his own company and did manufacture firearms at one time... My gut feeling points toward a Rewat by JP Foote and Company. The Marietta GA markings point toward his business location. If I recall from the SAR article, he started his company in the early 1980s... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fifthmdec Posted December 15, 2016 Author Report Share Posted December 15, 2016 The fact that JP Foote's company is listed on the form may have been put in by one of the owners along the way. I purchased an Ingram M6 that had Colt listed on the paperwork. It was an eFile transfer to us and it populated as Form 2 and nothing else. It has the Los Angeles CA address stamped on the receiver and not Colt. I have had several guns that have had the incorrect information pertaining to manufacture and, or country of origin. All of our DEWATS have had the country of origin on the form 5s, in fact one had unknown and one 38/42 had several things listed. German, MP40 and MP 38/42... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Black River Militaria CII Posted December 15, 2016 Report Share Posted December 15, 2016 (edited) If Foote is listed as the 'manufacturer" and his ID/address is stamped on the receiver, and you can find no evidence of a weld seam, apparently his shop did not cut and weld the cut receiver per ATF requirements for registration. MGs that were not cut and welded back together for legal registration between '68 and '86 and were registered are not uncommon. Often 'remanufactured' MGs had the cut done in a place that was easy to weld to restore the receiver to comply with the registration requirements. For example, Brens would be cut through the gas tube, MG34s cut just forward of the rear end of the receiver, etc etc. These are places that are easy to weld back together and finish out. Or the receivers were never cut.If Foote is listed as the manufacturer and their ID and address is on the receiver, it is almost positively a remanufactured MP40. If it has transferred recently, within the last couple of years and was not kicked back for correcting misinformation on the transfer application, which would be on the document, the current transfer info is correct. ATF vets every incoming transfer application and compares it to the original registration information. If it does not mirror the original registration info, it is kicked back to the transferor who must correct the misinformation to proceed with processing. If this gun was originally registered as manufactured by a German factory, Merz Werk as you note, and that info is in the NFRTR for that serial number, ATF would have kicked it back indicating that the ID of the manufacturer was incorrect and needed correction.If the gun transferred to you ten years ago, there was little reliable vetting of incoming transfers comparing the new transfer info with the NFRTR info of original registration. Often, wrong ID/address of manufacturer info was just passé on in the approval process. However, it is unlikely in my opinion, that this gun was mistakenly registered by Foote as the manufacturer for a reactivation. It would be nice if I am wrong, so I wish you luck. Never say never.The only relevant information on this gun is Foote's name and address on the registration, his ID and address on the receiver and no evidence of a weld seam. No other stamps, marks, or anything else matters. Usually the story is that a registrant has an MP40 that is listed as "German WWII' on the transfer, no evidence of reactivation or former DEWATing and the new transfer application out to the C+R licensee comes back that the gun cannot transfer as C+R because the original registration in the NFRTR indicates that it was registered in 1978, a date that makes the gun ineligible for C+R transfer. FOIA information reveals original date of registration, and I am familiar with quite a few MGs that were allegedly C+R but were registered post '68 amnesty by CIIs on form 2s as reactivations but were not. A reactivated DEWAT MUST have an original registration date of submission prior to end of the '68 Amnesty. Approval of the registration can be later than that cutoff date. And, a registered DEWAT that has been reactivated MUST have the ID of the original factory, location of the original source of the weapon or other vintage ID info listed as the "manufacturer'.Also, many reactivations even though legally done, are not marked by the person or outfit that did the work. There are some other arcane possibilities, but my view is that it is a remanufactured gun by Foote.Good luck. FWIW Edited December 15, 2016 by Black River Militaria CII Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fifthmdec Posted December 15, 2016 Author Report Share Posted December 15, 2016 Thank you very much for your detailed response. We have thought much about some of your senerios. The approval date on the form 4 is 11/14/2001. Who knows how long the previous owner had it. My call out was the JP Foote & Company markings Too bad that there is so many variables to this senario, at least we did not buy it. Anyway, without sounding redundant, we'll wait until the FOIA paperwork comes back to the seller... Thank you again Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Black River Militaria CII Posted December 16, 2016 Report Share Posted December 16, 2016 Pertinent info in the FOIA copies is the date and form of original registration. That will tell you exactly what the true registration and manufacture status is of the gun. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fifthmdec Posted December 17, 2016 Author Report Share Posted December 17, 2016 That I understand, we just do not want to make a purchase without validating the original Form and date used in the initial registration.All of our C&R submachine guns of foreign WWII vintage have the country of origin, Germany, Japan, Russian Federation. We have a Beretta 38/42 listed as German on the Form 3, must have been the country of origin as in found or the owner did not know what they had.We are currently requesting FOIA data on all of our C&R NFA inventory. On a side note, the seller at our request, filled out a transfer in his eFile account as a draft and it populated as a Form 2. Leading us to believe as you had stated, a remanufacture and not a Form 1 pre 68 Amnesty, or Form 6 1946 import as we once had one in our inventory. We did rewat an NFA firearm on a Form 2 as a reactivation. We eventually sold it and transferred it out on a Form 3 and the NFA kicked it back, stating that there needed to be LE letter in order to transfer it. We called them and told them that had it approved to us on a Form 5 from someone who had registered it during the Amnesty and that we had the original paperwork. They asked us to fax it to them as the waited by the fax. We did and they faxed us the approved Form 3. As you say, never say never! At this point anything else is just speculation. Stranger things have happened... Granted the Form 2 on the Form 3 draft does not bode well as a C&R rewat... Appreciate your imput as you have been doing this for a long time... Thank you Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fifthmdec Posted December 17, 2016 Author Report Share Posted December 17, 2016 That I understand, we just do not want to make a purchase without validating the original Form and date used in the initial registration.All of our C&R submachine guns of foreign WWII vintage have the country of origin, Germany, Japan, Russian Federation. We have a Beretta 38/42 listed as German on the Form 3, must have been the country of origin as in found or the owner did not know what they had.We are currently requesting FOIA data on all of our C&R NFA inventory. On a side note, the seller at our request, filled out a transfer in his eFile account as a draft and it populated as a Form 2. Leading us to believe as you had stated, a remanufacture and not a Form 1 pre 68 Amnesty, or Form 6 1946 import as we once had one in our inventory. We did rewat an NFA firearm on a Form 2 as a reactivation. We eventually sold it and transferred it out on a Form 3 and the NFA kicked it back, stating that there needed to be LE letter in order to transfer it. We called them and told them that had it approved to us on a Form 5 from someone who had registered it during the Amnesty and that we had the original paperwork. They asked us to fax it to them as the waited by the fax. We did and they faxed us the approved Form 3. As you say, never say never! At this point anything else is just speculation. Stranger things have happened... Granted the Form 2 on the Form 3 draft does not bode well as a C&R rewat... Appreciate your imput as you have been doing this for a long time... Thank you Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Black River Militaria CII Posted December 17, 2016 Report Share Posted December 17, 2016 ATF examiners seem to be blind to the 'reactivation' box on the F2s. I've had several reactivation F2s come back asking for a PD letter for the gun! Typical…... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fifthmdec Posted December 17, 2016 Author Report Share Posted December 17, 2016 (edited) Good to know... Anyway, I'll post our findings when the FOIA paperwork arrives... This post will be long down the list by then... Edited January 3, 2017 by fifthmdec Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lt Shaffer Posted December 30, 2016 Report Share Posted December 30, 2016 Black River I sent you a message about a Rewat on an Mp40, I hope you can help. Thanks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Junkhunter Posted December 31, 2016 Report Share Posted December 31, 2016 My M1A1 Thompson transferred in from out of state, I have the original F5 from 1962. The dealer asked if I wanted it live, he said it would only add 6 weeks to my transfer and $200 for the rebarrel/paperwork (i had the barrel). I went ahead and was horrified when I picked it up. He was listed as the manufacturer and the bottom of the receiver was engraved with his Shop. The notes section showed Auto-Ordinance Corp. He explained this was the examiners requirement. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fifthmdec Posted January 3, 2017 Author Report Share Posted January 3, 2017 (edited) Junkhunter, That is the senareo we are hoping for, that the manufacturing company on the tube is the one that reactivated it.I figured with all of possible ways that this can play out, your situation is a possibility... Thank you for your input... Edited January 3, 2017 by fifthmdec Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Junkhunter Posted January 5, 2017 Report Share Posted January 5, 2017 I'm sure this all affects the value in a negative way. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fifthmdec Posted January 5, 2017 Author Report Share Posted January 5, 2017 I understand that a DEWAT is usually worth less than a C&R that is not. Reactivating one adds to the value. Most likely not as one that has been not been made unserviceable. If one purchases MGs for an extended period of time, things like this pop up. My experience with WWII MGs is that most have been deactivated at one time or another. Most of the transferable ones that have come through our inventory as WWII NFA weapons, were reactivated before we purchased them. We reactivated two of them, most importantly all have had the country of manufacture or the country that the weapon was found on the paperwork... We have done a FOIA on all of them so that there is no guessing... This one in question is a new one on me... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Junkhunter Posted January 5, 2017 Report Share Posted January 5, 2017 I hate that my gun is marked but it's done. It was a tremendous deal so I can't be too upset. I have a beautiful MP-40 now that needs to be restated, I won't make that mistake again. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnsonlmg41 Posted January 6, 2017 Report Share Posted January 6, 2017 If you had a mfr. reactivate it, marking the gun was not his idea, it's the rules and he had no choice in the matter. The only choice is where the markings go and he should have offered suggestions and let the location be your final decision. The vast majority of foreign C+R MG's I've seen are rewets whether they are marked or not. (most have not been marked). I don't think I've ever seen an MG42 that wasn't a dewat? Domestic guns less so, since many were in use by LE agencies, etc. or were purchased new by old time collectors. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Junkhunter Posted January 6, 2017 Report Share Posted January 6, 2017 What's your thoughts on the paperwork of my Transferable C&R Thompson showing the dealer/MFR as the manufacturer after the rewat? Is that standard procedure? He stated that he argued that point with the ATF and lost but was allowed to enter Auto Ordinance in the notes section as a alternative. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fifthmdec Posted January 6, 2017 Author Report Share Posted January 6, 2017 Chapter 10 in the NFA Handbook pages 67 through 70 will shed some light on what ATF considers a reactivation of a DEWAT... Best bet in my estimation is to submit a FOIA on your TSMG and then you'll know exactly when the original registration date was. It will include a copy of the original Form that it was on. This way, if you ever sell it, you can better explain why the name of the person or company that did the reactivation is on the firearm and paperwork... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Junkhunter Posted January 7, 2017 Report Share Posted January 7, 2017 I have the paper trail back to 1962. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fifthmdec Posted January 7, 2017 Author Report Share Posted January 7, 2017 Is it the original registration or is it a Form 5 transfer? What does it state in the in the box that would state the Name and address of the maker, manufacturer and or/ importer? The most recent form 5 is revised as of May 2016. It would be in box 4a. That would be a start, if it is not the original registration. Then I would recommend a FOIA request on your TSMG. It may be awhile, but worthwhile... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Junkhunter Posted January 7, 2017 Report Share Posted January 7, 2017 It's a dealer to individual transfer on a IRS form 5.Stating Auto-Ordinance as the manufacture. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnsonlmg41 Posted January 8, 2017 Report Share Posted January 8, 2017 Nothing really to worry about as long as he put reactivation on the form 2 and the only place for "auto ordnance" is in the additional description box on that particular form. On subsequent transfers on other forms the mfr will be listed as AO, not him, though his info could be listed in the additional description or data section. The gun will always be C+R (course they all will be in a number of years) but will carry a slight decrease in value over other non dewat Thompsons since there are far less dewat Thompsons than other machineguns in the registry, so in this specific case, yes I would say the value is somewhat less, however I'm sure you also paid less? The value will depend on how large and ugly his info is, but I'm guessing it's probably not all that bad? You see PD marked guns for sale all the time with ugly scratched info on the stocks and receivers, but the values don't suffer that much and in some cases can add depending on the provenance of the markings? Thompsons make up a large share of the registry, hence buyers can be more selective about what they buy and pay. On rare guns things like this can be overlooked to a degree, since it might be this one or none for 5 more years until another becomes available. HTH Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Junkhunter Posted January 9, 2017 Report Share Posted January 9, 2017 No it's not horrible it's on the bottom of the receiver near the mag. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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