opsoff1

One more - If you look closely - lower rack on the right is filled with M1897 Winchester Shot Guns. The rack on the lower left is filled with Colt-Browning M-1895 Machine Guns next to the TSMG's. Both upper racks have M1903's.

Boston PD 1934

More evidence pics - maybe this will help with more detail. Third pic shows the suppressed Colt Woodsman as well.

that's it. Supposedly made with metal and leather washers.

Just supposition here - but I'd offer that the gun and all the other stuff that was stolen from the State Police were returned to the them, who it turn, put it back into service. My guess is that the MASP had far more than one TSMG. The drums and other accessories were probably divided up among various guns when they were sold off. It is also interesting to note that during one of their robberies - a box office clerk refused to give them the $$. One of them stuck a pistol through the window opening and fired twice - she still wouldn't give up the cash, so they fled. In her statement to police she told them that the pistol wasn't loud - it was more of a "pfft" Turns out they were using a home made suppressor on a Colt Woodsman. That pistol is in some of the evidence photos.

The photographer: Leslie Jones has a website / archive and has the 324 pics on line. Each one can be enlarged significantly with no loss of detail - quite amazing. For me - all of this is utterly fascinating. I grew up in Needham and my father and grandfather would take me to that bank to show me the bullet impacts. All the buildings, the bank, the courthouse, the Dedham jail where they were held and where a guy attempted to bust them out of are still virtually untouched - it is really cool. Officer McLeod had a relative on the Needham PD when I was growing up - not sure if he was the son or grandson or some other relation. The gang had established themselves as quite prolific - known as the "Box Office Boys" they had been knocking off theaters all around Boston and it's suburbs. The wife grew up in Natick - daughter of a minister. Needham and Natick are bordering towns. Their former home site is less than a 1/2 mile from where I work. For more there is an excellent book on this - Tommy Gun Winter by Nathan Gorenstein. Also the local Needham cable channel did a documentary on this a year or two back. Not sure how to access it though.

Is this thread in response to the post on the Gangsters & Outlaws forum? I posted a series of write ups and pics about 2 hour before this one started - if not amazing coincidence. I grew up in Needham and this was very much alive in town lore in the 60's.

Link to the photographers collection - 324 pics, fascinating stuff. www.lesliejonesphotophotography.com/subject-series/crimepolice/crimepolice-millen-faber-murder-case Couldn't get the hot link to paste (??) There is also a well received book about this: "Tommy Gun Winter" by Nathan Gorenstein. Amazon has it for $15

Various pics of the gang members. Electric chair at Charlestown State Prison where they were executed Two Millen Bros and Faber outside court - Faber has the hat on The Millens after they were arrested in NY Norma - wife of Irving

The archives offer a fascinating chronicle of this crime - there are over 324 photographs covering all aspects of this event. Prior to the execution - a local thug tried to break Irving out of jail - the Dedham Jail where he was being held - right across the street from the courthouse. He was armed with a sawed off 16ga double bbl and a 38 revolver. Below are a few more pictures from the evidence:

Minutes after I posted this - I friend emailed me a link to the Commonwealth of MA Digital Archives, linked through the Boston Public Library. Shown below is "Capt Charles J. Van Amburgh, State Police Ballistic Expert with the gun that shot Needham Policemen"

What did they use? TSMG's? Monitors? These were the first machine gun murders in MA. Growing up in the early 60's and my parents were born in the 30's - it was still very "fresh" and large part of local lore. The bank to this day remains virtually unchanged. The Norfolk Trust Bank in Needham MA was robbed in February 2nd, 1934 by the Millen-Faber gang from Boston (Roxbury). The members of the gang were brothers Murton and Irving Millen, Norma (wife of Murton) and Abraham Faber. The Millens drove trucks for rum-runners during Prohibition. They timed the robbery to coincide with the train running through town that would effectively block the police from responding. Their take was $14,000. They had planned on getting $70-80,000. Unfortunately a snow storm prompted the bank to transfer the early deposits a day before. As kids - it was pointed out in the bank, the chipped granite made from the bullets - left untouched as a reminder/memorial. The gang held up the bank with machine guns, the first machinegun crime in MA. They wounded two of the bank employees and took one of them hostage. During their escape, they fired on and killed two members of the small Needham Police Dept; Officers McLeod and Haddock. They also shot and wounded a fireman; Tim Coughlin. The police officers were not even present at the bank - one was on his way to respond - an employee tripped the alarm. He (McLeod) was shot from within the bank. The other cop and the fireman were shot standing on the side of the road talking - unaware of what had taken place. Both were gunned down from the moving car as the gang sped out of town. The gang was caught fairly quickly. They were tried and executed. The wife, Norma was released to her father and eventually remarried. This robbery was the first MG robbery and the first MG fatality in MA. The gang was an unlikely mix - they had roots in the Jewish - Russian - European immigration earlier in the century. Murton was the leader - described as a sociaopathic thug with a violent streak. His wife was young and sexy from Natick - bordering Needham. There are reports that she drove the get-away car. The younger brother, Irving was known as a leering dim-witted follower. The most unlikely member was Faber - an MIT graduate in aeronautical engineering and a puritanical streak that kept him from kissing his girlfriend. The gang were arrested 3 weeks later - one in Boston and 2 in NY. All were convicted of murder. The jury rejected their insanity plea. A month before the Needham robbery, they had robbed the Paramount Theater in Lynn and killed a man there. All three were executed in the electric chair at Charlestown State Prison on June 7, 1935. A quote from the Boston Globe on the day of execution, stated: "Crowds gathered about them whenever they appeared in custody of detectives, to boo, hiss and deride them." So....anyone know the details of this? We were always lead to believe that they used TSMG's, but for all the digging I have done - I can not get a shred of information on what they used. 1st picture - Officer McLeods Funeral 2nd Pic - Boston Globe 3rd pic - Memorial to the two Police Officers 4th Pic - Funeral Procession - building near the center of the pic is the actual bank that was robbed.

I tried to find an on line version of FM 23-40, but came up empty. The FM's usually have a great deal of info on marksmanship. I wonder what the accuracy / acceptance standard was at AOC / Savage for the fixed sight guns?

I am interested in understanding how TSMG's were "zeroed" - in particular the 28A1's, M1's and M1A1's with the fixed rear sight. There must have been some fixture in the production sequence that enabled the sights to be zeroed. Obviously easy to do with an adjustable sight. The fixed sight guns are interesting as it appears from any of the drawings, that there are no variations of rear sight height or location on the receiver or front sight height or even lateral dovetail to drift that for windage. Also - how were guns rezeroed after a bbl replacement/rebuild? Were the tolerances and dimensions such that the guns produced "minute of man" groups at 25yds / 50 yds and that was good enough? or was it up to the shooter to correct with Kentucky windage / spray n' pray? Thoughts?

GIjive - thank you again - you are a wealth of info - love this forum / community.