gunhistorian Posted October 16, 2014 Report Share Posted October 16, 2014 If anyone is interested, I am working on a book manuscript on American Armament Corporation and the Miranda brothers, with some info on other arms traffickers of the Inter-War period. One of small "histories" that I compiled is that of the Hyde submachine gun. This gun was marketed by Lake Erie Chemical Co. to compete with the Thompson, marketed by rival Federal Labatories. (Also one of the reasons for the passage of the NFA: to discourage competition with the Thompson, both domestically and from foreign manufacturers -- notably the Belgian or Swiss version of the MP-18.) Anyway, if anyone is interested in this history of the Hyde model 1935 (I think that is the correct year!) let me know and I will try to share the info . By the way: there was no Model 108! (Sorry, Frank I.!) That designation came from a photo by Army Ordnance while testing the gun. Ordnance used the serial number as the model number! A small number of these guns was sold to Cuba in the '30s. The guns were manufactured by Griffin & Howe, barrels from Winchester. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
timkel Posted October 16, 2014 Report Share Posted October 16, 2014 I'm interested the Hyde SMG. I have seen drawings of the Hyde but no actual pictures. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gunhistorian Posted October 16, 2014 Author Report Share Posted October 16, 2014 I don't have a way to scan photos (or anything else, but if you do a google search (images) and go to Wikipedia, you'll find photos of the Hyde. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
timkel Posted October 16, 2014 Report Share Posted October 16, 2014 Ok, a Hyde pic. http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v323/timkel24102410/stuff/2cxxq4x_zps8bhrottw.jpg Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Waffen Und Bier Posted October 16, 2014 Report Share Posted October 16, 2014 That's a special kind of fugly. The trigger frame and fore grip actually look pretty sleek. Is that a charging handle at the back of the receiver? The butt stock looks like it would be fragile where it attaches to gun. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dalbert Posted October 17, 2014 Report Share Posted October 17, 2014 gunhistorian, Have you read my article on the subject that was published in Small Arms Review several years ago? It was just featured as the archive article of the day a few days ago. Another version of the article is published in TUTB. I own the original U.S. Patent document for the Hyde SMG, and scores of documents associated with the patenting of the Hyde by George Hyde and Jean U. Koree, and creation of Triangle Ordnance Company to market it. I have many of Koree's personal effects, including his "little black book," which is a 1919-1940's time capsule of contacts, including John and Marcellus Thompson. Koree was the driver behind the Hyde Model 35 project. He also tried to purchase Auto-Ordnance on 2 occasions in the 1930's. He was an aspiring and engaging arms trafficker of the inter-war period, with many intriguing connections that he developed. He also owned a razor manufacturing company in NYC, in close proximity to AO, and other arms merchants. You are correct about the incorrect designation in the Army photo, but it was incorrectly referred to as the Hyde 109 in Frank's book and the photo, and not the Hyde 108. David Albertdalbert@sturmgewehr.com Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dalbert Posted October 17, 2014 Report Share Posted October 17, 2014 I'm not sure if this link will work, but here's the link to the article about Koree's attempted purchases of Auto-Ordnance. https://www.smallarmsoftheworld.com/display.article.cfm?idarticles=1675&CFID=2678108&CFTOKEN=14492955&jsessionid=8430c8e5e7753c108162213d62647f667b19 I realize now that I wrote 2 separate articles in Small Arms Review related to the Hyde Model 35...One was on Koree and the Hyde 35, and the other about Koree and the failed Auto-Ordnance deals. I'll try to find which issue the Hyde 35 article was published in. I'm away from my resources at the moment. Good luck on your quest...I'm very interested in discussing this with you further. You probably have some information I'd like to see, and I know I have a ton of info that would be useful to you. David Albertdalbert@sturmgewehr.com Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dalbert Posted October 17, 2014 Report Share Posted October 17, 2014 That's a special kind of fugly. The trigger frame and fore grip actually look pretty sleek. Is that a charging handle at the back of the receiver? The butt stock looks like it would be fragile where it attaches to gun. I think it's pretty cool looking. Yes, that's the charging handle at the back of the receiver. David Albertdalbert@sturmgewehr.com Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kilroy Posted October 17, 2014 Report Share Posted October 17, 2014 Charging handle looks like the cocking piece from a '03 Springfield. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gunhistorian Posted October 17, 2014 Author Report Share Posted October 17, 2014 David (and anyone else interested!): My info on Hyde came from the Nye Committee transcripts, testimony of the president of Lake Erie Chemical. There are also exhibits reproduced in the transcripts that are somewhat helpful -- production of the barrels by Winchester, for example, as well as some serial number info. The transcripts can be accessed through hathitrust.org. Search for Senate Committee to Investigate Munitions Industry. Can't remember which Part the testimony appears in. Sorry for the error in the "Model" number. I don't have my references in front of me and go from memory. Koree sounds interesting! I'm in central Pa., by the way. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Devil Dog 1110 Posted October 17, 2014 Report Share Posted October 17, 2014 One of these was just listed on Sturmdewher- asking $84,000. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gunhistorian Posted October 17, 2014 Author Report Share Posted October 17, 2014 NYE COMMITTEE REFERENCES TO HYDE: As I mentioned, the Nye Committee hearing transcripts are available on hathitrust.org. Part 40 is the index to the hearings. George Hyde is mentioned in Part 8 (Lake Erie Chemical Co.), pages 2042-2046. (There might be more material in that Part as an exhibit.) Also in Part 15, pages 3644-52, 3833, and 3930. These hearings are an often overlooked source for firearms info. Note: re Jean U. Koree, he had a 1/4 interest in Hyde's patent on the M-1935 s.m.g. And, David, I think there is receiver markings info on the Hyde in Part 15 (though it might be in part 8)in an exhibit. This is where info on serial numbers appears as well as sales to Cuba (I believe). Hope this helps! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
buzz Posted October 17, 2014 Report Share Posted October 17, 2014 That's a pretty awkward looking firearm Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dalbert Posted October 19, 2014 Report Share Posted October 19, 2014 gunhistorian, I found the link to my Hyde Model 35 article from 2006. https://www.smallarmsoftheworld.com/display.article.cfm?idarticles=1697&CFID=2691852&CFTOKEN=70580873&jsessionid=8430c8e5e7753c108162213d62647f667b19 David Albertdalbert@sturmgewehr.com Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Big Al Posted October 23, 2014 Report Share Posted October 23, 2014 One of these was just listed on Sturmdewher- asking $84,000.That is the M2 Hyde of WWII: http://www.sturmgewehr.com/webBBS/nfa4sale.cgi?read=169645 A very different gun, though by the same designer, George Hyde. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SAR-Ross Posted October 23, 2014 Report Share Posted October 23, 2014 Good morning everyone, David was kind enough to post a few links related to the Hyde Model 35 on SmallArmsOfTheWorld.com (SAW). We opened those links for public viewing when we ran across this posting to keep this discussion alive. The links referred by David below should now be accessible to the public: The Hyde Model 35 Submachine Gun - By David Alberthttps://www.smallarmsoftheworld.com/display.article.cfm?idarticles=1697 I want to Buy Auto-Ordnance! - By David Alberthttps://www.smallarmsoftheworld.com/display.article.cfm?idarticles=1675 Ross HermanChipotle Publishingross@smallarmsreview.com Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dalbert Posted October 23, 2014 Report Share Posted October 23, 2014 Thanks Ross...I wasn't sure if everyone was able to view the links I posted. David Albertdalbert@sturmgewehr.com Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gio Posted October 23, 2014 Report Share Posted October 23, 2014 Dave I enjoyed reading both articles. Thanks Ross for making these available to this forum. Frank Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
timkel Posted October 25, 2014 Report Share Posted October 25, 2014 Dave I enjoyed reading both articles. Thanks Ross for making these available to this forum. FrankYes , very interesting articles. Thanks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dalbert Posted October 25, 2014 Report Share Posted October 25, 2014 Dave I enjoyed reading both articles. Thanks Ross for making these available to this forum. Frank Dave I enjoyed reading both articles. Thanks Ross for making these available to this forum. FrankYes , very interesting articles. Thanks. Thanks for the kind words, Gio and timkel. Those articles took 2 years of piecing the Koree document puzzle together, and some additional research. Those documents are probably the single greatest eBay find I've had. I still think there is more supportive historical information that may be gleaned from them. Thanks! David Albertdalbert@sturmgewehr.com Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gio Posted October 25, 2014 Report Share Posted October 25, 2014 David I agree that their is more to the story of why Koree wasn't able to put the deal together. Was the demise for the Koree deal because of Hall or Ryan' estate? Their are several sales of AOC that if one knew the facts would make great stories. Frank Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dalbert Posted October 25, 2014 Report Share Posted October 25, 2014 Gio, In my opinion, the Koree Auto-Ordnance purchase deals did not go through because the money just wasn't good enough at the time of the offers. (1932 and 1935) The Ryan estate wanted to sell, but I guess it took a few more years before they just got tired of it, and sold it at a good deal to Maguire. David Albertdalbert@sturmgewehr.com Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gio Posted October 26, 2014 Report Share Posted October 26, 2014 David, It seems to me that Koree's offer was a lot better than the offer of Maguire. Just curious why Hall didn't go back to Koree and see if he were still interested in buying AOC. If I offered to give you a good deal on your Thompson and at the time you wanted more seems only natural that 2 years latter when you were willing to take that offer you would come back to me and see if I were still interested in buying. It wasn't like people were knocking down the door wanting to buy AOC. Was the fee that Hall getting on the Koree deal not big enough? Or did Koree not have interest at this time? Did Ryan's estate dislike Marcellus that they wanted a buyer that would exclude him? That lack of knowing these questions what bugs me. I guess we will never know the real answer. Frank Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dalbert Posted October 26, 2014 Report Share Posted October 26, 2014 Gio, There are many unanswered questions about why the Koree deals proved unsuccessful, and why Hall apparently didn't approach him at a later date. I suppose it's possible he was approached, but I think I would have something in the paperwork that would document it. I have speculated that Marcellus' involvement may have been a drawback to the Ryan estate, but we'll probably never know, and I'm not sure how much emotion versus dollars were involved. Of course, there were more Thompsons available at the time of the 1932 and 1935 offers than there were when Maguire finally acquired the company in 1939, reducing the value of the physical inventory through those years. The brand name and goodwill value of Auto-Ordnance and the TSMG in all those years was a high risk investment, so the dollars that were potentially available through sales of existing inventory were the main attraction. I think Maguire was just the right investor at the right tim in 1939, as war began in Europe. David Albertdalbert@sturmgewehr.com Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HHollow Posted November 1, 2014 Report Share Posted November 1, 2014 (edited) Does anyone have any idea where the Hyde machinegun prototypes are presently located? This post on the Hyde guns was very interesting and it has helped me to conclude that I have a Hyde prototype pistol. A couple of weeks ago I bought an old handbuilt pistol from a gunbroker seller and figured it was a Ruger. (Ruger has confirmed it is not one of theirs) When I opened up the pistol I found the mark "G. HYDE" on the underside of the barrel. Edited December 30, 2022 by HHollow update dead image 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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