Reising Slings

[wju365]

How may different slings were used and what was considered standard.....what sling was used a Guadalcanal? what sling was used later in the war say by seagoing Marines...you can see reisings in photos being used to guard prisoners in 1944 europe etc..

[emmagee1917]

Well...I know I'm going to get flamed for this....but here goes :

 

Let's look at the facts. First , the time line. The sling in Frank's excelent book , on page 173 , I donot believe is a "Reising" sling. It is stamped USMC and Boyt 43.We know there was a request for a sling of this type , acording to Frank , made by the USMC in Aug. of 1943. Even though this was a minor change , you have to figure on a couple of month's lead time to approve , do the paperwork , place the order , change the factory tooling , produce samples , get approval , then set up the line and make a production run. If this was ever done , you are looking at a begin time around Nov.-Dec. 43. What was the status of the Reising in the USMC at the end of 43? Preaty much zip , zero , nada , right? On page 67 , Frank states the gun was made from 1940 to 1943. Most , if not all , the USMC purchases were in '42. So why , with a war on , would the USMC request development of a special sling for a weapon they were no longer using? Nope , do'nt buy it for a sec. But now , how about a sling for the M1 carbine? Now that I could believe.

 

Second , let's look at the weapon and sling together. The Marines pride themselves on marksmanship and how to handle small arms. Look at the sling swivels on a M50 /55 /60. They are not carbine sized. They are rifle sized. These swivels fit 1907 , Kerr , 1923 , M3 (thompson) , and M1 canvas slings. Why would they do that? I don't think they would. Now , I am not saying that men in the field did not put M1 carbine slings on Reisings , only that the gun was not designed for them. Remember , back to the timeline , these guns were made before the M1 carbine was , so how did they figure " we'll use the sling off a gun that's not made yet" ? Again , don't buy it , I think they used what was already in the system.

 

Thirdly , let's examine the slings themselves. I find it amazing that I never saw one of these slings for sale before , I believe , the early to mid '80s. None , zero , nada. Then , at a Great Western show in the 80's , all of a sudden there were hundreds , if not thousands of these. All brand new , rolled up , in clear plastic thermo-sealed bags. Wow , what a find. But noone selling these could give me an answer as to who found these in what warehouse , and when in the last six months. Noone has to this day come forth with the info. This causes some questions. First , why were they so plentiful after being unknown for 40 years? Why were they all brand new with no storage stains nor 40 years of creases ? Why do all the ones today , 20 years later , still look pretty new? Why didn't at least one of them come with the second sling slide , the reason for the design change anyway? I say the answer to these questions can be easly answered by the statement---they are brand new fakes.

 

Fourth , let's look at photographic evidence. Has anyone a period picture of Reisings leaving the factory with this sling ? ( the timeline above says impossible). Is there a period picture of one being used in combat , complete with the 2nd slide?

 

Finally , do I think there was a special sling made? I would tend to say no. I am not an expert , however , mearly a RKI. With new evidence comming out every day in the collecting field it would be silly for me to make such an all conclusive claim. I do have , in my collection , a couple of carbine type slings that are the width of 1907 type slings. They are , however , short loop carbine style ,green web , with C-clips. I thought they were modern fakes , however I have just picked up a third , and the webbing is half ( long-ways) OD and half (side-to-side) Khaki. All are new and unmarked , so who knows? Maybe these are the "correct" Reising sling.

 

I think that any of the slings in service at the time could have been used. I have a 1917 Kerr on my 50 and three 65s , a shorter one ( 1903 Kerr or a Thompson M3 sling) on my 55.

 

Let the flames flow and the mud fly.

Chris

[dalbert]

Well...I know I'm going to get flamed for this....but here goes :

 

Let's look at the facts. First , the time line. The sling in Frank's excelent book , on page 173 , I donot believe is a "Reising" sling. It is stamped USMC and Boyt 43.We know there was a request for a sling of this type , acording to Frank , made by the USMC in Aug. of 1943. Even though this was a minor change , you have to figure on a couple of month's lead time to approve , do the paperwork , place the order , change the factory tooling , produce samples , get approval , then set up the line and make a production run. If this was ever done , you are looking at a begin time around Nov.-Dec. 43. What was the status of the Reising in the USMC at the end of 43? Preaty much zip , zero , nada , right? On page 67 , Frank states the gun was made from 1940 to 1943. Most , if not all , the USMC purchases were in '42. So why , with a war on , would the USMC request development of a special sling for a weapon they were no longer using? Nope , do'nt buy it for a sec. But now , how about a sling for the M1 carbine? Now that I could believe.

 

Second , let's look at the weapon and sling together. The Marines pride themselves on marksmanship and how to handle small arms. Look at the sling swivels on a M50 /55 /60. They are not carbine sized. They are rifle sized. These swivels fit 1907 , Kerr , 1923 , M3 (thompson) , and M1 canvas slings. Why would they do that? I don't think they would. Now , I am not saying that men in the field did not put M1 carbine slings on Reisings , only that the gun was not designed for them. Remember , back to the timeline , these guns were made before the M1 carbine was , so how did they figure " we'll use the sling off a gun that's not made yet" ? Again , don't buy it , I think they used what was already in the system.

 

Thirdly , let's examine the slings themselves. I find it amazing that I never saw one of these slings for sale before , I believe , the early to mid '80s. None , zero , nada. Then , at a Great Western show in the 80's , all of a sudden there were hundreds , if not thousands of these. All brand new , rolled up , in clear plastic thermo-sealed bags. Wow , what a find. But noone selling these could give me an answer as to who found these in what warehouse , and when in the last six months. Noone has to this day come forth with the info. This causes some questions. First , why were they so plentiful after being unknown for 40 years? Why were they all brand new with no storage stains nor 40 years of creases ? Why do all the ones today , 20 years later , still look pretty new? Why didn't at least one of them come with the second sling slide , the reason for the design change anyway? I say the answer to these questions can be easly answered by the statement---they are brand new fakes.

 

Fourth , let's look at photographic evidence. Has anyone a period picture of Reisings leaving the factory with this sling ? ( the timeline above says impossible). Is there a period picture of one being used in combat , complete with the 2nd slide?

 

Finally , do I think there was a special sling made? I would tend to say no. I am not an expert , however , mearly a RKI. With new evidence comming out every day in the collecting field it would be silly for me to make such an all conclusive claim. I do have , in my collection , a couple of carbine type slings that are the width of 1907 type slings. They are , however , short loop carbine style ,green web , with C-clips. I thought they were modern fakes , however I have just picked up a third , and the webbing is half ( long-ways) OD and half (side-to-side) Khaki. All are new and unmarked , so who knows? Maybe these are the "correct" Reising sling.

 

I think that any of the slings in service at the time could have been used. I have a 1917 Kerr on my 50 and three 65s , a shorter one ( 1903 Kerr or a Thompson M3 sling) on my 55.

 

Let the flames flow and the mud fly.

Chris

 

Chris,

 

I believe your sling comments have merit. I have seen a wider, mustard-colored sling on a Reising in person (which I wish I had taken a picture of), and I also believe one is pictured on a Model 65 at this link:

 

http://www.collectorsfirearms.com/admin/pr...hp?itemID=17127

 

That being said, documention exists for the changes to the Reising sling that made it different than the Carbine sling, widening the area between the snap and front sling swivel.

 

There is no doubt that a number of different slings were used on the Reising.

 

I think this is a good topic for further discussion.

 

David Albert

dalbert@sturmgewehr.com

[texasvwnut]

I have a vintage photograph I purchased from eBay that was cut from an old photo album (when photos were pasted into albums). This photo is of a Marine wearing a HBT uniform is holding a M50 (with no magazine). It appears to be during a training exercise because some cabin looking buildings can be seen in the background.

 

The interesting thing about the photo is the sling on the M50 is either a carbine sling or one of the 'Reising' slings. The snap is clearly visible in the photo on the stock end of the M50. I'd be glad to scan the photo and post it here if there is an interest.

 

I've got to assume that the photo is a WWII era photo as I think the Reisings were phased out of service pretty early. Thoughts?

[dalbert]

I have a vintage photograph I purchased from eBay that was cut from an old photo album (when photos were pasted into albums). This photo is of a Marine wearing a HBT uniform is holding a M50 (with no magazine). It appears to be during a training exercise because some cabin looking buildings can be seen in the background.

 

The interesting thing about the photo is the sling on the M50 is either a carbine sling or one of the 'Reising' slings. The snap is clearly visible in the photo on the stock end of the M50. I'd be glad to scan the photo and post it here if there is an interest.

 

I've got to assume that the photo is a WWII era photo as I think the Reisings were phased out of service pretty early. Thoughts?

 

texasvwnut,

 

Yes, please post the photo you mention.

 

I have also seen a similar WWII photo with a visible maker's mark on the sling. I think it's published in a book, and I'll see if I can find it.

 

David Albert

dalbert@sturmgewehr.com

[RoscoeTurner]

Reising photo thread on this forum - http://www.usmilitariaforum.com/forums/ind...eising&st=0

[texasvwnut]

I cleaned up the photo some.

[dalbert]

Fourth , let's look at photographic evidence. Has anyone a period picture of Reisings leaving the factory with this sling ? ( the timeline above says impossible). Is there a period picture of one being used in combat , complete with the 2nd slide?

 

Chris,

 

I have never seen a period picture of a Reising sling equipped with a second slide (keeper). My understanding is that the extra space between the snap hardware and front sling swivel allowed for an extra keeper to be used, if desired, but I have never actually seen a picture of one in use.

 

There are several WWII era pictures showing the Reising with the smaller, M1 Carbine style sling, with the 4" space between the snap hardware, specifically requested by the Marines for the Reising. If you have a copy of "Grunt Gear," by Alec Tulkoff, you can see a Marine Raider training photo from 1943 that clearly shows one. (Page 264) This book also includes a comparison shot on page 268 of a Model 50 with an M1 Carbine sling on it, as well as a Reising sling with the 4" hardware spacing. Both these slings are the thin ones that leave extra room within the Reising sling swivels.

 

I also consulted "USMC Uniforms and Equipment, 1941-45," by Bruno Alberti and Laurent Pradier. On page 6, I found the photo I remembered, showing the maker's mark on the sling, however the photo is not a vintage one, rather a current picture of a Model 55 with a "USMC..." marked, mustard colored sling of the type that I have noted as original on the Reising reference page on this website. On page 60 of the same book, a WWII photo shows 2 different Reising Model 55's with the 4" hardware spaced Reising sling attached.

 

In the link that RoscoeTurner posted to the US Militaria Forum, there are 4 examples of WWII vintage photos showing the Reising sling with the 4" hardware spacing, and texasvwnut's photo also shows an example.

 

I think we could make a list of slings used on Reisings during WWII that would include at least 7 different types.

 

David Albert

dalbert@sturmgewehr.com