Help with Deciphering a FOIA

[Orion]

Hello from a snowing east coast, can someone help with a foia for my Thompson. It started with a form 5 in 1956, then in 1968 on form 4467, then in 1987 with a form 5 (marked; firearm is being transferred to or from a government entity). The last form 5 I understand and the two form 4's after that, just trying to understand the early life of the gun. Thanks for any help you provide.

 

Andy

[TD.]

Hi Andy,

Without seeing the redacted paperwork (especially the first Form 5) I will make the following observations:

 

1. Form 5, 1956 - This is the original registration of this Thompson by a law enforcement organization, i.e., when it was born on the NFA Registry.

 

2. Form 4467, 1968 - This is a 1968 Amnesty registration of the same Thompson. Apparently the law enforcement organization did not know if the Thompson was properly registered on the 1956 Form 5 so they registered it again. This indicates the original Form 5 was lost, misplaced, etc.

 

3. Form 5, 1987 - This is probably when the Thompson transferred from the law enforcement organization. I would suspect the transfer was to a dealer who later sold it to a customer on the first Form 4.

 

I hope this helps. All comments welcome!

[Orion]

TD

Thanks for the help I included a scan of the first form 5.

[brazos609]

That was a transfer to the agency from a company, probably from NAC. The 1968 registration may not have even been filed by the same agency that received the gun in 1956. Agencies years ago had the bad habit of transferring guns to another agency without filing and waiting for the approved Form 5. A chief, sheriff, or even just a regular officer or deputy would sometimes take NFA guns, registered or not, with them when they left an agency. That would leave an agency or the individual with a registered gun but no paperwork. When 1968 rolled around they just registered it.

[TD.]

Review of the first Form 5 indicates a tax free transfer from a Transferor in 1956. I would think an earlier Form 2 should be on file but apparently this was the first time the IRS encountered this serial number (as per the note in the "INSTRUCTION" area of the form). What happened with NFA weapons in the 1950's at the Internal Revenue Service is much different than today. It appears the Transferor was in possession of an unregistered machine gun before the transfer took place. Review of the "INSTRUCTIONS" revealed it was legal to make a transfer of a NFA weapon to a law enforcement agency before submitting the Form 5 to the IRS. This is probably what happened here. Do you know the name of the law enforcement organization that owned this Thompson?

 

Note how the serial number of the 1956 Form 5 is entered as "#245163" on the Form 5 and the note states the serial number will be entered in the NFA Registry as "S245163" - obviously for Savage Arms. Somebody at the IRS was on the ball. I wonder if a telephone call was placed to the law enforcement organization to obtain the complete serial number. I cannot believe anyone at the IRS in 1956 would know that the serial number range for Thompson submachine guns manufactured at the Auto-Ordnance Bridgeport plant in World War II stopped in the 150,000 serial number range. Something else to ponder...

 

As per brazos609 it is possible this Thompson was registered by two different law enforcement agencies, 1956 and 1968. However, I would think if this happened it would generate more redacted paperwork. I have studied many redacted IRS and ATF forms involving NAC Thompsons and have never seen the title, Assistant Sales Manager, especially in the 1950's. I do not believe it is a NAC Thompson.

 

All good stuff!!!

[Orion]

Thanks for all the information it helps clear things up some what. I do not know the law enforcement agency that had this Thompson; here is the form 4467 that I should have included yesterday.

 

[Stampcollector]

Orion,

How long did it take to get your info from the FOIA request?

 

If you don't mine me asking!

 

Thanks, Stampcollector

[Black River Militaria CII]

Form 5 was not a registration form for an unregistered MG and is only for tax exempt transfer. The form 5 transfer took place, so either the IRS did not check to see if the number was in the registry, or because a form 5 was submitted it was approved, or some other glitch. The number was corrected, as noted above, so either the gun was checked or there was a record of the number at IRS. There is no way to know on what form the gun was registered, if in fact it had been. The fact that it was registered in the '68 Amnesty suggests that somewhere along the way, whomever possessed the gun after the first form 5 transfer might have learned that it was not actually registered and the form 5s did not constitute registration and a 4467 was filed to register it. Good thing!

Lost orignal registration documents or records of the document is not especially common, but happened due to the very casual recording techniques used from the inception of the registration requirements until well into the eighties. In several instances, I have helped owners with FOIAs on allegedly C+R MGs to confirm C+R status for transfer, and there was no record of the original registration available, only subsequent transfers on various forms. In these cases, the existing records of transfers 'validated" the "legitimacy" of the MGs, establishing that they were "registered", and for a couple of them Gary Schaible "authorized" them by letter to be C+R. Oddly on later inspection at the owners place of one of these guns, I found that it actually was not C+R, but had a newly manufactured side plate! FWIW

[TD.]

I have another thought if this 1928A1 Thompson gun is not marked with the NAC letters and contains all the normal US military markings, i.e., flaming bomb, ordnance wheel, Inspector initials, etc.

 

Could this be one of the government giveaway Thompsons we hear so much about? I have never seen any paperwork that indicated or mandated a (former) US government weapon was being given or transferred to a law enforcement organization. Could the "Assistant Sales Manager" be a Department of Defense civilian employee? This would explain why there is not a previous Form 2 indicating this Thompson was Imported or Received by the former owner. And it would also explain why the IRS did not have a previous record of this Thompson. All speculation on my part - and all comments welcome.

 

Andy,

If there are only two previous Form 4's (prior to yours), you have solved half the problem. You know where you obtained this Thompson. Ask that person where he or she obtained the Thompson and you are well on your way to learning the history of this Thompson gun. Try to obtain a copy of the Form 4 from the previous owner showing where they obtained the Thompson.

 

This is something everyone should do when negotiating the purchase of a Thompson gun. Find out where the seller obtained the gun to learn the previous owner and obtain a copy of the IRS/ATF form. You have leverage before you lay down your money!

[TD.]

Black River Militaria CII,

I agree a Form 5 is not the usual initial IRS/ATF registration document. However, absent any previous Forms (assuming the IRS check in 1956 was correct) the IRS entered S245163 on the Registry as a Form 5 registration to a law enforcement organization in 1956. I believe this Thompson would have been allowed to transfer into the civilian marketplace without the 1968 Amnesty registration. I would also believe the IRS was confused with the Amnesty registration in 1968 since S245163 was already on the NFA Registry. However, I bet this same scenario happened more than once!

 

All good stuff!!!

[brazos609]

Who else was in the business of selling Thompsons in 1956?

[Orion]

Stampcollector, the FOIA was included with the Thompson when I purchased it; I just haven't looked deep into the history of it until now. I just sent a request for a FOIA on my M1A1 and I'll post the information when that comes in. The Thompson is a British lend lease with all the U.S. military marking and British markings, and is not NAC marked. I will try to contact the previous owner and try obtain the name of the person he purchased it from.

 

Thanks again, Andy

[Orion]

Update, I made contact with the owner on the first form 4; he stated that he purchased the Thompson from a class 3 dealer near Pittsburgh PA. but that dearer has since past away. I guess that's the end of the trail.