Police Department Thompsons

[PhilOhio]

I hope I've got this right, Frank.

 

As many of you know, for years I have theorized that these ex-PD Thompsons which a number of us own, without military acceptance marks or ownership stamping, and with the roll marked "U.S." ground off, must have been pulled from 1942 - 1943 production lines and sold directly to law enforcement organizations which met certain wartime priority criteria. Last night I was reading our Frank Iannamico's "United States Submachine Guns", just bought from him last weekend, and I hit pay dirt in a section focusing on the Reising and its distribution during WW-II. Any of you interested in this question need to read Pages 170 - 173. Everything applying to the Reising would have applied to the Thompson during WW-II, also.

 

Most of you know that before, during, and after the war, police departments across the country bought much of their equipment from Federal Laboratories, of Pittsburg, PA. It sold a lot of Thompsons, establishing its own customer qualifications policy, up until August 1940.

 

Then before we even entered the war, a government regulatory entity known as the Defense Supplies Corporation was established in August 1940. Everybody saw where we were headed, I guess, and the DSC was envisioned as regulating, and in some cases stockpiling, critical materials in a wartime situation. They acquired and sold to LE customers small arms, among other things. Some customers were end users and one customer was Federal Laboratories, a distributor.

 

The DSC warehoused some items and shipped them to end users. In other cases, they reserved blocks of production from manufacturers, who shipped directly to end users.

 

Frank says that, during the war years, "Virtually all firearms production was taken over and strictly regulated by the government."

 

To qualify as an eligible end user, the PD or bank or railroad guard unit, etc., had to meet the requirements of the War Production Board's "Priorities Regulation Number 10". There was a list of letters and codes and so forth. Of course, just about any bona fide PD would qualify, I imagine; some smaller rural PDs apparently had no trouble qualifying, when you see where many of these guns were sold. If you wanted to buy, submitted an application to purchase, and qualified under some section of WPB's #10, DSC could authorize that purchase.

 

So it looks like it happened about the way it appeared probable to me. The one thing was different was that some guns were shipped directly from the manufacturer, and others were shipped from DSC stock. Either way, there would be no military markings. Since most of the ex-PD Thompsons which we see without military markings are scattered through the 1942 - '43 number range, it looks like they must have been pulled from the production line as qualified orders came in. It appears that way to me because, if they had come from DSC stock, they would have probably procured the guns in blocks with contiguous numbers.

 

Federal Laboratories was also a long time distributor of Thompsons, and since they continued to function during the war, albeit under close DSC control, I'm guessing that some PD Thompsons could have passed through their hands also. In fact, they may have still had some of the Colt production run in stock at the time we went into WW-II. Frank includes a reprint of Federal's stated eligibility requirements for "Orders for Thompson Submachine Guns" specifically, which appears to predate WW-II. I remember their catalogs so vividly, as my granddad was a town marshal, had the catalogs, and I drooled over them every time I went to his place in the '40s. I got all the old ones, but looks like mom trashed 'em long ago. ...ah, those ads for the first registered S&W .357 magnums. They were his provider of the finest blackjacks and saps made, and he reported that they worked just fine.

 

I hope I've paraphrased all this correctly, Frank, or maybe you have a few more things to add since the 2004 copyright date.

 

If you don't have the book, guys, buy one. It's full of good stuff and Frank still has some.

[The Lone Ranger]

FWIW, the 2 28ACs in possession of the home turf S.O. I posted about some time back were transferred to the agency after the war. Form submitted Dec 45, approved Jan 46.

[blueline541]

That's very interesting information to read. My '28AC came from the Tennesse Highway Patrol, and I'm always fascinated by any information pertaining to the police Thompsons. Thanks.

[full auto 45]

My M1 went to the B&O Railroad police in 1946 and then to a PD in West Virginia in 1966. Neither put any markings on the gun. I do have the PD chief signed paper telling me the history of the gun. The B&O chief retired and went to WV and was chief for many years until he re-retired.

[PhilOhio]

Lone Ranger, Blueline541, Mike,

 

Are all of you talking about this same kind of gun, without any military acceptance or property marks? The reason I ask is that so many of those guns transferred after the war were ex-military guns with the markings. But some of the non-marked guns may still have been in the inventories of the DSC, Federal Laboratories, etc.

 

Ah, records are everything. ...exactly as with the "unbroken succession" debate.

 

I wonder if any records of the Defense Supplies Corporation survive? Somewhere, there were archived all the approved applications to purchase these (still) restricted firearms. At some point, they would have been moved to a Virginia document storage warehouse way south of D.C. Ordinarily, the records of most of these ad hoc wartime regulatory agencies would have been destroyed long ago. But because of the nature of the guns and where they went, these particular files may have escaped destruction. They might even have been forwarded to, and absorbed by, Treasury/ATF. ...or at least parked in some dusty corner there and forgotten.

 

But ATF hard copy records systems have a long history of being a shambles; even the NFA registry. Untangling it has reportedly been a very big job, and nobody wants to spend time on ancient history even predating their establishment.

 

But I wonder...

 

Hitting a crate of those files would be a real Thompson historical goldmine. You'd have all the very close production dates and the transfer information.

 

And you'd know where to look for possibly transferable Thompsons, the ones that may have been registered later.

 

I imagine some bureaucrat would try to argue "privacy protection", to protect the privacy of police departments 60+ years ago...and of course to avoid administrative work and to avoid complying with the FOIA law. You know, the rules with which we have to comply and at which the government thumbs its collective nose.

[PhilOhio]

P.S. to the above: Here's a chance for the board's serious researchers to show us their stuff. Only facts and documents count, and here they are. It looks like all those Defense Supplies Corporation records have survived. If I still lived in the D.C. area, they would be a stone's throw away, very accessible...but buried in a rather large hay stack.

 

The DSC was dissolved on 1 July 1945.

 

It's functions were transferred to the Reconstruction Finance Corporation...another dinosaur.

 

RFC then established the Office of Defense Supplies, to administer any projects related to the postwar reconversion program.

 

The federal government eventually established an elaborate document retention and destruction program which has more or less dealt with the mountains of paper previously generated and created since.

 

All of the retained DSC documents exist within the RFC's bloc of the federal records archive system, and that which remains is accessible. (Of course, I have to giggle when I say that.) But seriously, I strongly suspect the Thompson police purchase application records are there. Some of the holdings titles look interesting.

 

If the approved wartime weaponry purchase applications survive, they are stored in a federal warehouse in College Park, Maryland. That's in the suburbs just north of D.C. SIG could fly in directly, as it's the site of the nation's oldest continuously operating airport. Watch out for all the trees on either side of the narrow final approach, and power lines across the takeoff end.

 

These DSC records are merged into the holdings of RFC, but accessible as unique file category #234.5.3. I should not fail to mention that just these DSC files consist of 6,808.327 cubic feet of documents; they cut it very close. Better get your reading glasses prescriptions updated, all you serious researchers. There is a rough index, which could eliminate a few thousand feet from the necessary search crates. But still...

 

And to give you a big head start, just go here. http://www.archives.gov/research/guide-fed...groups/234.html

 

Does this sound like the final scene from "Raiders of the Lost Ark", or what?

 

Ah, this brings back 40-year-old Washington nightmares.

 

D.C. Chris, you'd better hide and not answer the telephone for awhile.

[hawksnest]

"Does this sound like the final scene from "Raiders of the Lost Ark", or what? "

 

 

Phil: That is exactly what I was thinking!

[PhilOhio]

Hawksnest,

 

In the course of searching for the probable location of those files, it occurred to me that this is probably true of most of the missing WW-II era Thompson production info which people here are always asking about. Most of it has probably not been destroyed, but is archived somewhere, in boxes that have not been opened since they were stacked in some warehouse.

 

Screening and destruction of government files is an official part of document retrieval system theory, but it doesn't actually work the way people might expect. Generally, it happens for a couple months in the summer, when kids are out of college. Uncle Sam hires some, quite often the children of federal employees who already have security clearances, because they can be cleared quickly, at a low level. This is neceessary because you never know what is in all those tons of paper, no matter what the classification is supposed to be.

 

So the kids sit around, look at a few documents, B.S. with each other, make a couple bucks, and if they think the stuff is boring and nobody would be interested in it, whammo! Into the dumper. Adults with document savvy are supposed to oversee this, but you know how that goes. This kind of project has just about the lowest level of priority there is, and people assigned to handle it are not the brightest stars in the Washington sky.

 

So whether inherently important or unimportant things are lost or saved is a matter of a roll of the dice. In most cases, categories of documents which are obviously of great importance, like Whitehouse files, warrant a closer look. Maybe. If anybody is awake that day.

[The Lone Ranger]

Phil,

 

I can't speak to the military marks, but *hopefully* will be able to in a couple of weeks as we are planning a trip home. What I can recall is the U.S. was removed and no "X" I have read about added to the serial. Dulite receiver, smooth barrels, and a Cutts (not sure which breed as I ain't that smart). If I can, I'll check out that F-5. I seem to recall the transferor being Auto-Ord, but wouldn't bet on it.

 

I was (this) close to having both of them in my inventory, but it didn't happen. As far as I know they are still rusting away internally so I hope to at least get to them and "stop the bleeding". My time there will be extremely limited (4 days driving and 3 in place with one being Labor Day), so I doubt I can get them the attention they need. I'll settle for getting them an oil bath and maybe try to get the sheriff to run them down the road to a gunsmith friend who can get them in better shape. Amazingly, the exteriors looked quite good. Makes me wonder if they got some corrosive ammo run through them years ago and not properly cleaned?

 

Some of you may recall these pics - I had the camera on too low a setting for a good showing.

 

http://i235.photobucket.com/albums/ee196/lone_ranger_the/tommys0082.jpg

 

http://i235.photobucket.com/albums/ee196/lone_ranger_the/Tommys0092.jpg

 

If there is something speficic any of you want me to look for as far as markings or?? Let me know; will be leaving 1 week from today.

 

 

P.S. TD, your inbox is full.

Edited August 23, 2008 by The Lone Ranger

[PhilOhio]

Phil,

 

...If there is something speficic any of you want me to look for as far as markings or?? Let me know; will be leaving 1 week from today...

 

No, I was just generally wondering if these fit the standard profile of ex-PD guns built in '42 - '43...no military ownership or acceptance marks, "U.S." ground off, and usually an "X" after the number on the receiver.

 

Sounds like those two are not being cared for at all. What a shame. All the more so if they are transferable and there is thus an alternative. I guess a lot of LE personnel are just too frightened by the potential implications of releasing them outside LE ownership circles, even to ex-LE folks who can be trusted.

 

There must still be thousands out there like that, in small towns across the country. One's enough for me, but I sure wish a lot more good people had them, to help increase our constituency.

[The Lone Ranger]

I believe there are thousands. This same agency has 2 21 Colts but I have yet to be able to verify the registration status although I don't anticipate a good outcome. The S.O. in one of the adjoining counties has one I posted several pics of on here last year. It is now on a F-10 as I suspect these 2 are, likely acquired during the coal strikes in the 20s and never registered. They have at least been cleaned up in the not so distant past.

 

I haven't given up on these coming out. Sheriff was up for it, county board chairman wasn't. No particular reason as far as I know. The same mindset is in that entire area (and I am afflicted with it as well). Ask a farmer to sell you 1 of his 10k acres at double or triple the market value and the response will likely be "If I did that, I'd only have 9999 left" and no matter how hard you try, bubba will not sell one of the 8 junk cars sitting in his yard that have not been touched or moved for the last decade - he may need one someday. I suspect the same thing is in play here. I got tired of waiting for the proverbial bird in the bush and bought the M1A1. When I can feasibly approach it again financially, I'll revisit the subject.