765 21D

Hi All, This is a photo I have not seen before, but I think it is an interesting photo as it purports to shows a french resistance man. There is no date given but he looks like he is wearing modified battle dress.

Hi Tom, When this story broke in the Daily Mail I set out to investigate the claims about this Savage 1928 Thompson being the one held by Winston Churchill on the 31 July 1940. I am a serious researcher and I have done my best to see what evidence Clive McPherson actually has and as it turns out he has shown me nothing new to convince me that this story has any basis in fact. I have done my research and I have reproduced the email message I received today in full, perhaps I should have left out all the contract information as most of us have seen it before anyway. The fact remains that the serial number S-26829 on the Savage Thompson is way too high to have been used in the iconic photo taken in July 1940. Dermot

Hi Dermot Thank you for your enquiry. The Thompson in question is serial no. S26829. As you are probably aware there is a deal of controversy between the "experts"( Which I do not consider myself to be) about the first Thompsons to arrive here. The first batch were sent to Enfield to be British proofed where it was discovered that they were an amalgam of Savage and Colt parts. The gun in question has a mixture of Colt and Savage Parts and the low number indicates that it was in the first batch, There is no record available in the UK of the gun numbers but we know that they were not sequential..The first 200 that arrived in UK were taken all over the country to be photographed with different units to create the impression that we had thousands of the weapons. The first people to be officially issued with the Thompson were the Auxiliary Battalions (the stay behind parties), then the Commando's. The other early gun we have is serial no. S17359, also an amalgam of parts. It is unusual in that it lacks a Cutts Compensator and has a standard Colt bladed foresight. That gun has created a great deal of excitement in the States and has been the subject of an article in Small Arms Review. We paid for the guns in advance around $168.00 and as over 100,000 were lost to UBoat action in the Atlantic you can understand why we rapidly developed the Sten. I do not know if you are aware of the list below. By Frank lannamico © 2000 Excerpt from the new book; ‘The Military Thompson” that will be published in 2001. Many of the early Savage manufactured Thompsons were sold to the British Purchasing Committee for $168.75 each. By the end of the British contracts the price had been reduced to $130.00 per weapon. The French were charged $175.00 per Thompson gun in their 1939 contracts with Auto-Ordnance. Both Savage and the Auto-Ordnance Corporation were concerned with filling as many of the foreign contracts as possible prior to the enactment of Lend-Lease. They were both concerned that the US Government would question the high profit margin Auto-Ordnance was making on the Thompson. A provision of the Lend-Lease program stated the US Government would take over all foreign contracts with US arms manufacturers. Ironically enough, Auto-Ordnance was able to charge the US Government even more! The price charged to the US Government was $225.00 minus 10%, which calculates to $202.50. Greasing and packing added an additional $2.50 to the cost adding up to $205.00 per weapon. The price was eventually reduced through negotiation and by lowering the manufacturing costs. British Contracts with the Auto-Ordnance Corporation 1940-1941 Date 2/15/40 3/6/40 3/7/40 3/14/40 5/21/40 5/25/40 6/21/40 6/25/40 8/24/40 10/15/40 10/28/40 10/31/40 11/30/41 2/12/4 1 11/24/41 Contract No. A-88 A- 120 A- 140 A- 145 A-268 A-3 12 A-437 A-470 A-972 A-1932 A-2232 A-2308 A-2980 A-4039 A-8039 Item 450 Guns-Various spare parts 300 Guns Parts and ammunition Various small parts 2,000 Guns-Various spare parts 26,250 Guns-Various spare parts 25,000 Guns Spare parts Various spare parts Spare parts Spare parts 54,000 Guns spare parts Spare parts Spare parts Spare parts Value $143,181.00 $50,625 $8,929.38 $34,425.00 $562,975.00 $5,471,237.50 $3,250,000.00 $1,850,000.00 $639,380.00 $133.79 $1,840,000.00 $6,931,332.00 $569.93 $713,150.00 $6,820.00 Total $21,502,758.60 French Government Contracts with Auto-Ordnance 1939-1940 Date 11/1/39 11/1/39 3/11/40 Contract No. 15 14 53 Item 3,000 Guns Spare parts 3,000 Guns-spare parts Value $525,000.00 $259,200.00 $625,950.00 Total $1,410,150.00 Note that these are the contract dates, not the delivery dates, the first batch should have been 450 guns but in fact only 200 arrived, lending credence to the argument that the batch was made up of odds and ends from various stores. Later on British inspectors were sent to the States to proof the guns over there. Another indication that we were not happy with the way American commerce worked.. I regret that I am not currently in a position to remove the guns form display to photograph them for you. I hope this has been of interest to you. Kind regards. Clive Now we know the serial number it is obvious that this Savage 1928 Thompson gun was not the one held by Winston Churchill on the 31 Jul 1940. Unless Clive McPherson has some other evidence I believe the case is closed. Dermot

Guns Magazine Drum Magazine box Total Army (Initial Order) 56,000 474,100 870,040 100,000 Guns RAF 12,000 156,000 240,000 814,100 Drum Mags Dominions 5,000)- Home Defence Btns 5,000)- 166,000 322,000 1462,040 Box Mags Special Opps 5,000)- Special Contingencies Allies etc 5,000)- India 5,000)- 18,000 30,000 Source coleshillhouse.com

Hi T Hound, The first contract for 3000 Thompson guns that were sent to the French were all Colt made and part of left over stock at A.O.C. No Savage made 1928's would have made it to French troops as part of any shipment before the fall of France. However, the BEF probably used Colt Thompson's abandoned by French troops and some early numbered Savage made 1928's before the evacuation at Dunkirk. Very interesting 765 21D, thanks! I certainly have no reason to doubt you but I would be delighted to know your source. Also, doesn't this make it MORE likely that the "lost" Churchill photo Thompson, S-17359, I believe, could very well have been one from that first British shipments? Therefore it is a good contender for being the Churchill TSMG? I will use your information to revise the extrapolated timeline. John C./T Hound High T Hound, My sources are these very boards, The Ultimate Thompson Book by Tracie Hill, Mr David Albert and Mr Tom Davis. According to David Albert the french received about 3,800 1921 Thompson guns, but I don't know if any were lost on the way due to U boat attacks. the vichy government produced Handbooks in 1941, 42 and 1944. 1941 French Handbook

T Hound, It's a 1928 and it was made by Savage and it has the S- before the serial number. Where did you get the serial number information for the so called Churchill 1928 as a gun in the 18000 range in my opinion could never have been held by Mr Churchill on 31 July 1940.

Hi T Hound, The first contract for 3000 Thompson guns that were sent to the French were all Colt made and part of left over stock at A.O.C. No Savage made 1928's would have made it to French troops as part of any shipment before the fall of France. However, the BEF probably used Colt Thompson's abandoned by French troops and some early numbered Savage made 1928's before the evacuation at Dunkirk.

This is an interesting Savage 1928 Thompson as it is very close to the 80k serial number range and I believe it must be one of the last New York address Savage Thompsons. This 1928 belongs to fellow board member Mark Leighton and these are his photos. I have added a photo that shows the gun has matching numbers on the trigger frame and receiver. Some parts have been changed on this gun but they are sort after parts so this could have happened when the gun was deactivated.

It's Ok Arthur I know that and I was only pointing out the fact that the so called Churchill Thompson gun does not look like it has early patent dates on it and based on the photos I have seen it has early patent numbers and could never have been held by Mr Churchill

Daily Mail exclusive me thinks good sir

m3bobby, The photos of gun number 17359 and the so caled Churchill Savage 1928 Thompson are not the same gun, they are just in the same museum and to say the patent dates are the early type in the newspaper article pictures without viewing good close ups is a mistake in my opinion.

I believe that the Savage 1928 Thompsons serial numbers carried on where Colts stopped at 15040 so the range for the first 400 Savage 1928 Thompson guns is not hard to work out. If the so called Churchill 1928 falls into that range it could turn out to be a very interesting find. I myself have serious doubts about these claims, but I believe it would be very interesting to find out something about the 1928 Thompson that is in the newspaper article above and in the photo I have posted. I have found another photo and I think I can see early Savage patent numbers and not dates? If I am right this story is finished right now, but maybe someone else can see better than me? Early Savage 1922 Patent dates Early Savage Patent numbers

Hi gunhistorian, The hex head screw is a fix for a stress crack in the butstock that I believe was caused by the Blish Lock being ground down. Thompsons were still being shipped to the iRA in the 1960's and 70's. I am not sure about the new numbers but I think those numbers were given to the guns after they were captured. It is interesting to note that both of the Thompson's buttstocks have an X carved into them.

Hi, This is my IRA 1928A1 it's one of about four that I believe came from bapty's The Blish Lock has been ground down to make the gun fire at a faster rate. However, this was a bad idea as the Buttstock has cracked. Here are some better photos of the one i believe is in the link

This is my low serial number AO 1928A1 Thompson and it is an an old spec deactivated gun as it can be stripped and dry fired just like the rusty one in the link, but new spec deacs are not so nice as the gun will not dry fire hence the low prices in Britain and other parts of europe.

Hi 1921A Irish Swords: How The Thompson SMG Came To Ireland I believe the website (thefirarmbolog.com) have made a mistake with the serial number as it is number 1234 in the photo caption, but changes to 1235 in the written text. I am sorry for any confusion in my post. The funny thing is I already knew about the mistake with the serial number as I have my own database on the 1921's that were smuggled into Ireland, but I have it on my backup hard drive. Regards D Our other Irish gun is serial 1235, a later purchase, being one of 300 shipped on the 24th of August 1923 to M.Fitzgerald Co. New York City, N.Y. (thanks again to Mr Herigstad). Though not quite as historic as 212, it is the more original example of the iconic Model of 1921, featuring the original selector markings, knurled controls, and the correct working parts. - See more at: http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2013/05/19/irish-swords-thompson-smg-ireland/#sthash.IcYwGzhF.dpuf

Hi giantpanda, The IRA trained with and used the smuggled 1921's 28's and M1/M1A1's right up to the 1980's. Thompson number 832 was found at the bottom of a well, but I don't know when and how it was found. We do know it was an East Side gun and that it was shipped on the 07 June 1921 to the American Railway Express Company and smuggled to Ireland after the shipment was released in 1925. The gun resides at the Irish Army Regimental Museum and I think that is in Dublin, so it's one that stayed in the South of Ireland, but it could have been hidden when De Valera outlawed the IRA in 1936. However, it's well known that the IRA were training with the 1921's during the so called emergency period. I really am not sure what is going on with the XX round magazine for this IRA 1921 Thompson, but like I said it would appear to be unique to this gun. Here are two more "Irish Swords" number 212 and number 1234. The first Thompson number 212 was an East Side gun and was shipped 6 May 1921 to George Gordon Rorke with the fake American Railway Express Address. "Irish Sword" number 212 Note the lower is not original to the gun and is from a 1928A1 with a British modified buttstock. The next "Irish Sword" is number 1234 and it was shipped on 24 Aug 1923 to M. Fitzgerald Co. New York City NY. This gun was part of a shippment of 300 Thompsons, but it was ordered one month after the civil war in Ireland ended. Close up view of defaced serial number

Hi gunhistorian, The magazine in question does not look like any early prototype for the model of 1919 that I have seen, so it could have been made for number 832 but the only real way to find out is to view the gun and magazine. The buttstock is a replaced one and the front pistol grip has been rubbed down, but it might be original to the gun. it could be a magazine made for the gun by the IRA but I doubt if that was/is the case, so who knows?

Hi gunhistorian, While it is possible that some prototype mags went with the late type model of 1919 Thompson's to Ireland, all of the "Irish Swords" I have seen have blank production mags (No patent dates) or the patent date mags, so the answer is no, but 832 has a mag with no witness holes as can be seen in the posted photos, but it must be fairly unique to that particular IRA Thompson? Credit for photos goes to thompsongunireland.com with thanks. [

Hi Hawkeye, Thanks for your reply. I know I sent him a message in 2013 and got no reply oh well I guess there's no way to confirm anything about his Thompson collection if he does not come on here anymore.

Hi Hawkeye, I have seen that photo before and they all look great together, but I am curious about number 389 and I wondered if Murry still owns that IRA Thompson? If he does then we could be dealling with number 689 or 889 and there is very little information on both of those Thompson guns. Regards, Dermot

Hi Lammerlaw, The 1921 Thompson guns that were smuggled into Ireland in the 1920's and 30's are some of the most historic and interesting of all 1921 Thompson's and they each have a story to tell. These weapons are known in collectors fields as "Irish Swords" and they attract a lot of attention when they are shown on here. Can you post some better photos when you have the time please. You really should pay a visit to tompsongunireland.com as it is a great site with much information on the known history of individual Irish swords. However, here is some information that will be of interest to you. The following 1921 IRA Thompsons are in private collections in New Zealand. Serial Shipped consigned to in 1921 Salesman 630 25/5/1921 Captured in Ireland PJ Gentry New York 389 18/5/1921 American Rail Express Co., NY G.G Rorke 586 20/5/1921 Captured by the Gardei American Rail Express Co., NY G.G Rorke 708 03/061921 Captured by the Gardei American Rail Express Co., NY G.G Rorke 993 03/06/1921 American Rail Express Co., NY G.G Rorke 308 11/5/1921 Auto Ordnance for G.G Rorke 393 11/05/1921 Auto Ordnance 535 20/05/1921 American Rail Express Co., NY 592 27/05/1921 G.G Rorke 609 25/05/1921 PJ Gentry New York 886 27/05/1921 G.G Rorke There is no mention of Number 889 being in New Zealand is this new information or could your gun actually be number 389? This particular IRA 1921 is said to have matching butt stock numbers to the serial of the gun? 689 6/9-7/16/21 Captured by the RUC I doubt if your Irish sword was one from the North of Ireland as it is not in typical condition for guns found or captured in the North of Ireland. 889 26/05/1921 G.G Rorke second shipment. The "Irish Sword" in my post is my own and it is in typical condition for a gun captured in the North of Ireland.

Hi All, I am tempted to bid on this 1921 Thompson, but if I did get it the gun would be made into a new spec weld up Thompson and I am not sure if I could do that to any Colt Thompson. However, there is no other way forward as getting any firearms licence in the UK is very hard and your thoughts and opinions on this would be most welcome? D

I found that interesting as well. That gun was made after the first 10K batch. I've often wondered how far they went with the dates vs numbers. I have some nice pics of a 43 K gun and it has numbers not dates. I believe the dates changed to numbers around the 40k range as I have seen a 36000 gun that had patent dates and a NY address, but perhaps TD can chime in on this? D

Hi MKVII, This is a bad photo I took of Private Pike in the episode "The Deadly Attachment" and the Thompson in question does not have a smooth barrel. If there was another one used in that episode please tell me where to look for it?