historicalgmen

Sandy Jones's Obituary on the Fort Collins Coloradoan For info, Sandy's wife had confused the dates of the memorial at their home. It is actually next Saturday.

I received the below from one who has contact with Sandy's wife, Karen. Other than what you see, I have no additional information. Note Karen's email address if you need the address. larry wack FBI - Ret. ======= Memorial Service for Sandy Jones Saturday 24th of February@ their home in Ft. Collins. Co.from 1-3PM. Any QuestionE-mail Karen@rowleyinteriors@comcast.net

Folks, As soon as I obtained funeral arrangements etc., I'll post them on here (unless someone else obtains them). Like most of you, I'm still reeling from this tragic news. Sincerely and Saddened, Larry Wack

I am posting this here but would appreciate anyone passing it along to other forums, friends etc. At 6:45pm this evening I received a phone call from a close friend of Sandy Jones advising me that his wife, Karyn, had apparently discovered him in the basement of their house earlier and unresponsive. He had been working on his "brew." It now appears that Sandy had a sudden fatal heart attack in all probability. I don't have to tell anyone the sudden shock of this and how much our friend will be missed. I have no additional information at this point, and I'm sure more will be coming in the next several days. This truly is a sad time for all..... You can reach me direct at: rypublish@verizon.net and as I receive information, I'll pass it along. I don't get back to this forum everyday so contact me direct if need be. Sincerely and with sadness, Larry Wack FBI ( Retired)

From multiple docs seen, my opinion is clearly it's a "6" and not a "5" wack

I seem to recall from a prior review that there were in fact a couple of weapons of the Nelson/Chase crowd never found, one of which very well could have been the Monitor Chase had. I do know, and docs support it, that Cowley's revolver was taken by them and not retrieved last I recall. The Canadian's thought they had found it up there in possession of some guy named Sparling, but I'm not certain how that played out. I don't have documents to support all of this immediately avail. The first logical thought regarding discrepancies in reporting crime scene findings, whether it’s 1934 or 2017 is the mere fact that minute to minute, hour to hour, the findings are changing rapidly. Especially during chaotic shooting incidents and resulting chases exhibited at Barrington. During my tenure, I’ve experienced these discrepancies a thousand times over at crimes scenes and command post positions and I’m sure other lawmen here have also. It’s the nature of the beast. 3 guns found today, turns into 6 guns tomorrow! Eventually over the days, it all gets straightened out. With the arrival of various jurisdictions to an already existing chaotic situation, the potential problems increase dramatically in multiple ways. Both then, and still today. In this instance of Barrington in 1934, there are no cell phones, no FBI radios, no “real time” exchange of information and everyone at the scene is scrambling for pay phones to call HQ with updates etc. which is normal. Because there was the death of 2 FBI agents, and escaping killers, the pandemonium present was no doubt ratcheted beyond normal with everyone trying to get a handle on “what exactly happened, and how?” larry wack

For info, although I haven't found Officer Gallagher's full statement yet, attached is a blurb showing he recovered Nelson's Thompson. He also retrieved, according to another doc., 3 spent rifle shells. Also attached is a 1938 listing of the evidence in the Cowley/Hollis murders. Note presence of the Winchester. HolCow '38 Evidence.pdf

One last thing for what it's worth. I didn't know Gordon but in my contacts with him, he was amiable and helpful and he knew I was a former Agent. He had discussed his travel to FBIHQ back in the early 90s I think it was and his meetings with Firearms and Lab personnel in doing his research etc. He obviously had some great access to the records back then and no doubt "made some friends" who were also interested in his research. I'm sure his contact with them continued for years. Obviously he could fill in the gaps for them at times, and they could assist his research with records. There was nothing wrong with that at the time.... My discussions on and off with Gordon were comical at times because in asking a question, he'd sometimes say to me "my sources told me" or "I can't reveal my sources, etc." I used to remind him that it was pretty apparent who his "sources" were.....and no need to play "007" with me on the phone.

Gents, I am literally in the middle of packing for a residential move from Buffalo area to Danville, Kentucky with departure date this coming Tuesday. I have to run around today but I'll try to attempt to address some of these finding issues later on, on here, or tomorrow at the max. I am not going to have all the answers at this juncture. By Monday, my Internet service here will be cut off and I won't get service down there until I arrange for it and you know how that goes time wise. Best I'll be able to do maybe is take my Ipad to a "hot spot" coffee shop on Main St. down there and communicate from there. The only file I am pulling documents from is the 62 Dillinger FOIA file. 62-29777 Off the top, and I don't know if anyone can find it, but transcripts of the Chase trial, the testimony of officers, Lab experts ....who found what, where, and the rest may be a viable option. If again, you can find it. Back to you later.... Larry Wack

Hans, the last digit is an "8." I've attached a 1934 document showing the Nelson Thompson etc. submitted for Lab exam. Also, I've attached a document revealing that as late as 1967, the Nelson Thompson and others were at FBIHQ. There's a notation that in 1968 they were placed in the Firearms Reference Section. I cannot confirm that they are still there today. As for statements to the effect that weapons were not found etc., I'd only be speculating without knowing what was transpiring during these comments. larry wack 1967 chase:nelson weapons.pdf 34 Nelson gun submissions.pdf

As a reminder to some who may have forgotten or not aware regarding the Chase/Hollis indictment, although he had been serving time for the murder of Inspector Cowley, 20 years later Chase had not yet been tried on the December 31, 1934, indictment charging him with Special Agent Hollis’s murder. On April 27, 1955, a motion was filed in United States District Court, Chicago, Illinois, demanding immediate trial on this indictment or its dismissal. On October 17, 1955, a United States District judge dismissed the indictment that charged Chase with Hollis’s murder. He held that Chase’s mere knowledge of the indictment and his failure to take action did not constitute a waiver of his right to a speedy trial. When the pending indictment was dismissed, Chase became eligible for parole. After parole had been denied repeatedly, Chase finally was paroled from Leavenworth on October 31, 1966. After his release, Chase resided in California, where he was employed as a custodian for over six years. He died of cancer in 1973.

Gents, In the interest of fairness and more importantly, the facts surrounding the Barrington shoot out, there is something that needs to be mentioned here regarding this extremely complicated post shooting investigation. All of it is a myriad of witness accounts, extensive Lab exams, ballistic testing and more that is extremely mind boggling to say the least. In view of the NRA article and the author's observations and conclusions about which weapons killed Hollis, Cowley and Nelson, I was curious by the mention of .45 cal in the killing of Hollis (i. e. via the colt monitor) since we had the Lab report etc. revealing .351 cranial findings. As a result, over the last few days, I took a look at the files again, this time advancing forward into the time frame of nearing the upcoming Chase trial and what evidence had surfaced and what would be used. I had not examined this post shooting investigation myself in several years now. In a nutshell, Hollis cranial fragments did....in fact.....also reveal .45 caliber fragment. This was going to pose some questions with the .351 findings in that it was going to be difficult to prove some aspects of Chase/Nelson guns used and what exactly happened during the gunfire exchanges. My own observations of the trial evidence at hand, the extensive Lab exams, and witness statements at the scene reveal to me personally that any conclusions reached by researchers and others are going to be debated until "hell freezes over." I'm adding a memo or maybe two if I see them, with some concerns ongoing at the time with the upcoming prosecution of Chase murdering SA Hollis, as shown in the indictment. (An indictment for the murder of Cowley would come later) "Enjoy" Larry Wack FBI - Ret. Chase trial problems.pdf

Since I haven't seen Hunter's article, I personally don't know how his conclusions were reached. Having said that, attached is probably the forensic evidence regarding the Hollis head wounds that you folks recall seeing. The direction pointed towards the .351 as you'll note. I'm also attaching the report of the Barrington shooting by FBI Supervisor Virgil Peterson which will also provide summaries of who will testify to what in the Chase trial. In general, I find Peterson's report to be a good reference to what happened overall. In other documents it's apparent to me anyhow that initially, Chase provided conflicting information in his early statements with what existed otherwise including forensics. Chase no doubt was trying to minimize his role in the actual killings of Hollis and Cowley at that particular scene, although he admits to firing on them during the car chase. Larry Wack FBI - Ret. hollisheadwoundcomparison.pdf cowholpetersonreport.pdf

In the event you don't have it, or would like to, attached here are the details of the finding of Dillinger Thompson 7387 in the lake. Notice....no stock! By the way, as my grandmother used to say, "Never let your historical research interfere with your drinking habits...." Enjoy larry wack 7387 Finding '34.pdf

By the way, I did forget to mention one thing! Downing your favorite scotch, whiskey, or whatever while reviewing files is more than welcomed! Being an insider, and having been assigned numerous designated "Major Cases," I have found myself at times doing the same thing. Reading a report or communication, and sitting here wondering "what is this agent doing, and why is he doing it?" Then again, I try to remember that the early pioneers were all still in the learning stages for the most part of criminal investigations. I also note that at times the extent of the details, as readily seen in this case and others, for the time period is sometimes mind boggling. Think I'll have another hit of my favorite Canadian whiskey called "Piehole."

Here is a list with serial numbers of Dillinger gang weapons from Bohemia. While I don't have immediately avail what Chicago FBI is referring to in the opening "reference line," it appears to me someone at HQ wanted a listing made avail to them. During my own tenure as a Bureau agent, it was not uncommon to receive requests of this nature from HQ or other offices especially in fast moving nationwide cases where extensive evidence is being collected daily and numerous suspects are beginning to show. Summary type docs of this nature are extremely helpful to Federal prosecutors, investigators and supervisory personnel for a variety of reasons in just "keeping a handle" on what the latest info is. For purposes here, disregarding why this document was done, it provides the info being sought. There are a couple of notes of caution I mention with regard to this document from Purvis/Chicago FBI. Had I written it, I would have made clear to recipients that the other Thompson machine gun found was taken to the St. Paul Office and "details of tracing etc. should be obtained from them." Although obviously agent reports are not written for interpretation of historians 100 years later, this Chicago document could lead the common layman by itself to assume that only 1 Thompson had been recovered at Bohemia, as you'll note with the showing of the one Thompson. I suggest to those here not totally familiar with inner report workings of the Bureau, that some caution be taken on ASSUMPTIONS being made by examining various investigative documents. I don't have to remind some that it's very easy to make false conclusions based on wrong assumptions. Different documents from different field offices in the 1930s are following the existing investigative procedure which was still in existence during my own service and is still there today. All of these reporting procedures are in place, and have been in place since early law enforcement, for a variety of important and necessary reasons. larry wack FBI - Ret. BOHEMIAGUNS Copy.pdf

Attached is record of weapons and vests returned to Warsaw, IN PD in the event anyone needs it. Larry Wack FBI - Ret.

Darryl, the research I have on the Monitor reveals that although the Bureau was "pitched" by sales to purchase the weapon in 1933 when they were gearing up, documents show that in all liklihood the first shipments to the field were not until June, 1934, several months after Little Bohemia. I have not found any evidence that any random Monitors were sitting in inventory anywhere in the Field prior to that. Larry

As most of you know, the "POST - shooting" investigation begun immediately after Bohemia was a colossal undertaking with limited manpower involving extensive amount of post-shooting interviews needed. Also, detailed (and I mean detailed!) comparisons of statements of both FBI, local authority and local citizen interviews. Efforts to pin down "timing," conflicting statements and re-interviews, statements made to the press, examination of raid approaches and any surprises, planning done, commander decisions, mitigating circumstances, refusals to obey orders to halt (in this case) and much more. Anyone here who has spent time in law enforcement knows what a nightmare "post shooting" investigations are, especially one the size of Bohemia which took months to complete. And especially where "friendly fire" may have killed a citizen or officer. Unfortunately, the FBI and local authorities still have these "friendly fire" incidents on a recurring basis across the country and the world as does the military. For those interested who may not have seen it, I'm attaching one document containing the interviews of local sheriffs involved, done by FBI Inspector William Rorer who was present at the battle. There is no doubt from these interviews, and from news accounts etc., that the local citizenry and authorities were "hot under the collar" on the FBI raid, and of course the killing of a local CCC worker. As most know, a petition had been attempted locally, mainly driven by the local press, to hold the FBI accountable and be critical of the way things were handled. Rorer's interviews with the sheriff's, postmaster, and the rest ......done as "cooler heads prevailed" .....reflects some attitude and opinions that involve multiple emotional outbreaks at the time including statements based on hearsay, jurisdictional issues, using good shots and "deer hunters," maybe some bravado, questions on liability issues by the sheriff's at the time of the shooting, and much more. This document gives a "taste" of attitudes and more once the smoke cleared from Bohemia and places some issues in perspective. The red arrows are mine relative to what seems to be some important wording. I thought it interesting at the end of the document that the locals seem to be turning on Emil Wanatka for his involvement and getting too much publicity. I'm wondering out loud if there might be also a trickle of jealousy there that he was going to make money from this incident? (Wanatka in my view was a liar and a fraud at a minimum. This shown when he admitted he super imposed his photo with Dillinger to sell the post cards, and his labeling of items at the Bohemia "museum" as belonging to deceased agent, Carter Baum, which was total fabrication.) Anyhow, I don't have to tell anyone that caution should be taken in applying credibility (emphasis) to news stories at the time and further investigation is usually warranted. Larry Wack FBI (Ret.) Sheriff critics Rorer Invw.pdf

My Lord Jonesy, do you see the initials BATF under my name on the first post? I love the guys I worked with there but really..... Jack, FYI, a couple of docs on 6141 Thompson in the event they are of any assist. As you may, may not be aware, there was a mistake in the initial exam of this Thompson, i. e. that the serial # was 6146. This was corrected to 6141 larry NOT BATF.... error:thompson trace 6146, 6141.pdf

Well Sandy, as you know, it's often said that "the mind is the 2nd thing to go!"

Afternoon folks, hope everyone is doing well. Before I go any further on this topic, bear in mind that I'm aware of a prior discussion on this forum regarding this Thompson and frankly, I don't recall if I spoke to Sandy or not at the time. I now again recently tried following that discussion but ended up with a lot of questions ...or maybe confusion....as to who exactly had what with regard to any historical evidence from FBI files, FOIA material and such. I also admittedly am in the dark with regard to the answers to some of my own questions about this topic merely from a former investigator standpoint which I'll mention herein. During an examination of documents this week on a minor Nelson matter for someone, I ran across what I believe to be 4 relevant documents from files I have that pertain to Thompson #5487, the obtaining of it, and apparent shipment of it by Lebman to the hands of Tommy Carrol, Nelson et al in Minneapolis, MN. and the delivery to the Bennett residence there. Not knowing "who has what" on this Thompson, and circumstances surrounding it, I wanted to make these documents available here to those who might need them or want to review them. If this info is already out there, along with these docs., then simply disregard it all. Especially if the owner and everyone is satisfied about the historical end of things with #5487. (I note strongly that I do not know all the facts already acummulated by others here) My arm chair exam (and that's all it is) of the initial facts surrounding #5487 is that there appears no question that it was obtained by Simon Silva in El Paso, sold with several others to Stockmeyer and then sold to Lebman for shipment to the Bennett residence in MP., Minn. where Carroll, Nelson et al were in and out of. You'll see clearly #5487 mentioned in the longer document regarding statements from Stockmeyer, Silva et al. It's hard to read but it's there and I've circled it in purple. I also have added a few of my own notes to these various docs. (see the doc. "Lebman 5487....") Lebman appears evasive in his signed statement about Stockmeyer and Silva but as you'll see, "everyone gives up the other guy" as you move along. I do have a couple of questions and observations for some "outloud thinking" I'm doing: 1. It is evident at one point that a Thompson is seized by locals during an attempt to arrest Carroll at the Bennett house. Does anyone know the identity of that Thompson? 2. #4587 is shipped by Lebman along with what appears to be 4 other Thompsons, namely 4141 and 3 of which I cannot discern the numbers because the copy is so bad. Has anyone ever determined what happened to these other Thompsons? (see doc. "Lebman 5487) Anyhow folks, here are the 4 docs that I think are relevant to the #4587 question. BTW, I do not have any information that 4587 was ever in possession of the FBI at any time. Enjoy the read.....these are somewhat difficult to make out in some instances....and maybe this "stuff" will assist someone.....I hope anyhow! Note: I just discovered that Lebman's statement is too large to upload. Hopefully the other 3 here will suffice for now anyhow. Suffice it to say that in essence, Lebman's admissions are somewhat corrorborated by Stockmeyer and Silva and/or vice versa. Cheers Larry Wack FBI (Ret.) '68-'03 Lebman 5487 et al.pdf joe bennett.pdf Bennett shipments.pdf

We all know that history is endlessly lost at times and some recently discovered documents reveal the FBI's firearms training relations with the U. S. Military is no exception. I'd venture a guess that most here have read about the history of the "marriage" between the Bureau and the U. S. Marine Corps. Especially when it comes to firearms training, the FBI Academy at Quantico, and more. Dating back to the 1930s, the relationship has been forever as solid as a rock! In essence, that's the story we've been told anyhow. And although all of it is true, some of the actual beginnings of FBI firearms training with the military during that same period has virtually been lost over time. Fact is, something happened way before the Bureau's marriage to the Marine Corps. And it deserves a rightful place in our history giving all of us a more complete story of what really happened... You can find the details at our website at: 1933-'34 - FBI Relations With Army/Marine Corps More detail about the Bureau's firearms training is found at similar links at the same website. Enjoy the ride... Larry Wack, FBI (Ret. '68-'03) __________________ Larry Wack historicalgmen.squarespace.com

As I have mentioned previously, a search of FBI released documents I obtained clearly reveal that the hard cases for the Bureau's Thompsons, rifles and other long guns were first manufactured by the Kansas City Trunk Company in the fall of 1935. The Bureau was looking for two things; the lowest bid but also the highest quality. Three bids from companies at the time were required by U. S. Government regulations; a procedure that last time I looked, is still in place today. The Bureau's liason with the Trunk Company was SAC E. E. Conroy of the Kansas City field office. His son, Ed, is a retired FBI agent today living in the South. For those doing further research, I've located a document during another review I thought you should have. I'm making the document available here, but as you'll see it clearly reveals that the Kansas company was revealing itself, name wise, in confusing documents during the payment process. Conroy was requested by HQ to ensure this got straightened out. See the attached document and keep this - and the names - in mind in your future research efforts. I have not done any research beyond the 1930s regarding "hard cases" used by the Bureau and who may have picked up the ball in later years. As some of you know, the specs for the original Thompson case, and others, can be found at our website at: historicalgmen.squarespace.com Best, Larry Wack FBI (Ret. 68-03)

For added info, I'm attaching another document of '34 reflecting the Super .38 being used at firearms training. Not familiar with the Liddy story but he was known to be quite the story teller around. One thing that is true about Liddy is that he had a remarkable ability to duplicate Hoover's signature and had accessed the same "blue ink" used by Hoover. Liddy would make hand notes in the columns of the memos written by the HQ guys berating them etc. about the memo, subject matter etc. and send it back to them as if Hoover had done it himself. He'd let the HQ supervisor "squirm" for a while before admitting he wrote the notations. larry