New2brass

All Books have been sold. Thank you. Dan

@fifthmdec, what does the RIP mean on the forms? I know nothing on these forms or the special licensing. What caught my eye was in the first picture(ATF form 3) under lines 9 and 10 it is checked "deal in that type of firearm" and not "manufacturer" section 10 "Mfr. & Importer of firearms & ammunition" Was Winchester an importer in addition to being a manufacturer? to the best of my knowledge, other than prototypes and the M2, Winchester did not produce machine guns for civilian sale. The next item is section 6(g) where the serial number is. Below the serial number is 76i5963, which seems to refer to a previous application. if you look at subsequent pictures you can see the number is the previous form when a new application is made. next picture (ATF form 2) you can see the signature goes lower than the redaction in the previous picture. same shape, deducting it was the same person. The timeline is possible when Winchester was moving the collection to Wyoming. There is nothing that i see that I would consider provenance that it was from the Winchester Museum. It may be better to keep the discussion on this particular firearm be kept in the original post, as well as the original section for those following. Enjoy!

Thank you, here is a Perry advertisement believed to be from 1975. Interesting prices and items. Note that M2s were offered in both Inland or Winchester

I have heard of more than one receiver that had issues where it could not be made to headspace. I cannot say the receivers were stretched, but plausible. It is possible the locking lugs were worn or modified. Ordnance had sets of jigs to check the receiver to make sure everything was in spec. Most critical was the lug lock areas to be even. checked for burrs and deformities. The large lug lock area checked on the flat as this could affect bolt rotation. Too much or two little and there will be issues. Barrel thread area in relation to the bolt lock areas had special jigs as well. With all of that you are not going to find any field device to check those areas. Best to visually check the locking areas. Also check the firing pin bridge under the receiver, this helps prevent out of battery firing. Check the bolt lugs for cracks or deformity. These would be inspected under black lights. Any machine shop should be able to magnaflux the receiver and bolt for cracks. A good set of headspace gauges is a must. For rebuild procedures headspace was checked with the component bold. Once headspace got to the field gauge range a gauge bolt was used with the field gauge. This would insure bolt change interchangeability. If the field gauge failed then the barrel was swapped out. If a barrel swap could not bring the headspace into spec the receiver was trashed. These gauge bolts show up from time to time.

Do you have a time frame for that advertisement?

David, It seems the club for year has used the FILO to describe the situation, Possibly used in War Baby as well. Just imagine in mid 43 there were not enough barrels that production was constantly threatening production shut downs, then a few months later the y were almost over producing barrels that it was the height of production. I have seen pictures of racks of barrels as well as crates stacked up. It is a wonder how long before those bottom crates made it into production. The theory is also used on the Rock-ola I-cut stocks. It seems that they were used in production way after the oval cut stock became the norm. The theory being that RO was so proficient at woodworking a they made wooden furniture, games and radios in fine wooden cabinets, that they overproduced the stocks early on. Imagine a storage room filled with stocks and they rarely make a dent in getting to the back of the room. I have another theory, but that is for another day.

For those that do not know me, My name Is Dan Pinto. I am with the Carbine Collectors Club, formerly the Carbine Club. The club has been doing research on the M1 carbine and its variants since 1976. Findings were published in our newsletters and sent to our members. It was a great information exchange for its time. With the internet things changed, in 2016 the club was brought online and we still exchange information in an ever building knowledge base on M1 carbine and its variants. Most authors on the subject were club members at one time or another. The most prolific member, contributor and author was my friend Larry Ruth who passed away May 1, 2022. Where to start? The website quoted that lets you put in a serial number and spits out a list of what is supposed to be correct if full of errors. It appears that the information was taken from a very well known book, that is known to have errors, omissions, and serial ranges that do not tell the whole story. I am not bashing the book or website, as the information was used at the time of publishing may have been felt to be correct at the time of printing. What happens when you find the information is a little off? Unfortunately with 8 editions many things were not corrected, and in some cases factual information was removed as not factual. Something to ponder, The list shows type one stocks from 1000000 - 1114999 and type two stocks starting at 1115000. So did Winchester calculate how many stocks were needed to get to a specific number, shut down the production line and discard the remaining type one stocks and move in the type two stocks so they could get production up and running again? Absolutely not! There was a war going on and 9 companies were working at break neck speeds to get carbines out the door. Then there is the "first in, last out" where bins of parts were at assembly stations. The bins are getting low and someone comes by and replenishes the bin with fresh parts. This buries the earlier parts and they may not get to for several thousand or more carbines in the assembly line. Then there are things like sidetracked parts. These are something that did not gauge properly and needing a tweak of if they can be salvaged. We see this most often with items that are prone to warping from heat treating. What about transfer of part? One prime contractor was not able to get parts from his subcontractor in time, they would reach out to the Carbine Industry Integration Committee. The CIIC would find who had parts in excess of immediate need and get them to where they were needed. Larry was fantastic in finding the knows transfers, but information in the clubs data sheets we sometimes find bands where these parts were used. So basically there are often wide overlapping serial number ranges as well as gaps n serial number ranges on just about any given part. Using the presented serial numbers from that book surly has lead to many carbine owners swapping out parts on what may have been an original carbine as it left the factory. In examining Bob's pictures I have made several observations, which will be shared at a latter time as I have some pressing obligations. Interested in anyone's input, thoughts, criticisms. Best, Dan As to hand stamp and over stamp of M2 carbines. You need to separate Inland from Winchester. Both produced the M2 in the 7 million range, as they had their own specific bands of serial numbers. Inland started M2 production in the 6.7 million range, where Winchester was in the 6.4 - 6.6 serial number block and the 7.2 -7.3 million block Earliest known M2 Inland serial number http://www.uscarbinecal30.com/forum/spotter-report-earliest-m2-serial_topic3824.html Inland was still fulfilling their M1 contract when M2 production was added. Inland removed the number one from the roll die and all receivers in that time frame were finished without a 1 or 2. In assembly the number would be hand stamped with a 1 or a 2 depending on how the carbine was assembled. When the M1 contract was completed the number 2 was added to the roll die and we see M2 Inland carbines that were roll stamped as pictured in the post above this one. These roll stamped show up in the Inland 7 million serial number block Winchester on the other hand made all of their receivers with the M1 marking. When the assembled a carbine with the additional M2 components the 2 would be stamped over the one throughout the M2 production. Several have been reported as not having the 1, however in most cases the can usually be found in the correct lighting. One possibility is the front ring might of been lightly buffed before the 2 was hand stamped. Another possibility is when the subsequent stamp is applied the disrupted metal obscures most of the previous marking. For the assigned carbine serial number blocks see: http://www.uscarbinecal30.com/serialnumbers.html I will point out that number was for contract reasons. The military defined a M2 by the presence of a selector switch regardless of the front ring marking. Here is Bob's front ring marking, Can you see the one now? Winchester Gun Museum: we would be remiss if we did not acknowledge that the bigger part of that collection was the firearms that were donated by the "Pugsley Collection", The non firearms in that collection being donated to the Mystic Seaport Clock Museum. M17ap wrote "Back in the mid seventies R J Perry bought Winchesters-military smallarms and Cody got the ever action rifles and shotguns." I would like to hear a little bit more information on this. I have been researching information like this for several years. I will say that in 1975 that 3 million dollars worth of firearms was donated to the Buffalo Bill Historical Center museum complex which includes the Cody Museum and the McCracken Research Library. The collection included many other items that were not lever action or shotguns. The collection includes many of the M1 carbines and M1 rifles and its variants. The club has records of some carbines purchased by R.J. Perry Associates dated 1975. These were sold at auction and listed as coming from the "Winchester Museum Collection" The receipt is from Winchester - Western. The receipt has several divisions listed with a box to be checked including Winchester-Western, Olin Research Lab and others. There is no provision for the museum, nor any check marks. Were these purchased from the museum just from Winchester? Was R.J. Perry the sole purchaser of the other items from Winchester Gun Museum or Winchester factory? What I do find compelling is that in early 1975 Perry advertised US Carbine Cal 30 M2 issue/exl (not reworked junk) complete with sling and 30 round mags .. $250. But in late 1977 via Bob's photo of the receipt shows it being sold for $450, a sizable increase for 2 years. Either something happened with the market, or there was something special about the carbine. Absent provenance, we can only speculate. There was a dealer by the name of Robert Cardone that obtained a crate of 10 Winchester Carbines and offered them for sale in the late 70s. These were band new and had no acceptance markings. Other items such as M1 rifles and M97 trench guns packed to military specs wound up on the market in that time frame as well. These did not have ordnance acceptance marks as well. Did Cardone buy them from Perry, or was he also buying directly from Winchester? I have observed many Winchester items in like new condition. Some did not have serial numbers. This included special carbines such as the T3. Would these be in the museum, or maybe in the Olin Research lab, or in the back rooms of the factory? This is what lead to me researching what was happening at Winchester back when they were moving. Talking to people that either worked at Winchester, or just enthusiasts in the area at the time for any pieces of information I could find. The information are all pieces to the puzzle, which at some point may yield actual proof. But it seems that from accounts that Winchester had items that could have been a defective return or maybe an item with issues that were available to employees or maybe even the general public. This generates more questions than answers. War production was cancelled immediately after the surrender of Japan. Winchester in the week that followed was given a contract to modify some items. It also seems that M2 carbines were sold to the government in 1946. Were these left overs?

The pic links are dead

The following are not signed. Rock and a Hard Place by Jim Ballou. A book on the BAR. $150 Backbone of the Wehrmacht by Richard D. Law. $150 The Liberator Pistol by Ralph Hagan. First Edition, Published by Target Sales. Out of print $90

I am sure many of you are familiar with Collector Grade Books, and know they are out of print. Some of you may know the name Larry Ruth of War Baby series of M1 carbine books as well as 3 other books on the M1 carbine. If you know who Larry is, you probably know that Larry lost his battle with cancer. Before he passed, he asked longtime friend Jim Mock to help the family with the disposition of his collection after he was gone. Jim Enlisted Marty Black, long time Editor in Chief of the Carbine Club; and myself, the current Administrator of the Clubs Forums, to catalog and sort the carbine collection. Larry also had a sizable book and document library that the family is tasked with disposition, I had noticed the Collector Grade books and there was more value to them and offered to help with these few books. What I did not know is that Larry had also helped other authors as well as co-authoring, to a smaller degree, some of the non M1 carbine books. Most of them are inscribed to Larry and signed by the author, co-author, or publisher. David Albert suggested I post them as well as helping with some of the base values. The prices are a guided baseline. If more than one offer comes in it will go to the best offer. All books will come with a Certificate of Authenticity by Larry’s Estate. You can contact with my user name @aol.com or PM me First, we have "Thompson: The American Legend" Tracie L. Hill. Copy 6 of the Special Authors Edition. Signed by Tracie L. Hill and 12 others which include Larry’s signature. $350 The Grand Old Lady of No Mans Land by Dolf L. Goldsmith. Inscribed to Larry by Dolf. $SOLD The Devils Paintbrush by Dolf L. Goldsmith inscribed to Larry. $200 The Black Rifle. M16 Retrospective by R. Blake Stevens and Edward C. Ezell. Enscribed by R. Blake Stevens to Larry.$200 The Ultimate Thompson Book by Tracie L. Hill. Tracie Hill thanks Larry for all his help. Larry contributed the section on considerable Auto-Ordnance involvement of the Light Rifle and carbine programs during WW2. $300 This book also has other notable authors contributions. 😉 More to follow

Gentleman, Please understand this is coming from a carbine enthusiast point of view rather than that of an NFA guy as I am sure the points of collectability are different. I am in no way making an attempt to disparage this carbine, I am just sharing what I see. @JimC, please look carefully again where you got the 7270650 serial number, it is a Winchester and that range did have M1 carbines. The serial range is not far out of line serial wise with Inland that it may have been a handstamp, however, I believe this to be a roll stamp. If you look carefully you will note all the numbers are slightly shorter than the letters giving the appearance of being lower. Very early in the 7M range, Inland was done with an M1 contract. Wound not make sense to keep hand stamping from a time perspective. The only requirement of M1 or M2 marking was for the carbines going out the door of the prime contractor. All the Winchesters were overstamped. If you think you have a Winchester that does not have the 1 please take a very good look. sometimes it is well covered by the 2. If you truly think you have a non-handstamp Winchester M2 I would love the opportunity to inspect some pictures. The military did not use the designation on the receiver to determine what model it was. They used features alone. If it had a selector switch it was an M2. When they converted an M1 they did not overstamp a 2. Most m1 carbines went through a rebuild. The M2s, converted or actual, saw a lot of action after WW2 and been through many overhauls. I suspect the receiver being a true M2 adds value in the NFA world, However, it is clear that the carbine, on the whole, is not original as it left the factory. It does have correct USGI parts for Inland M2s with the trigger housing, and selector. The U round bolt with a hole in the bottom is a 50s USGI contract bolt for the rebuild programs. The slide is believed to be made by High Standard Arms, though it has not been confirmed beyond a reasonable doubt. It would not have come out of the Inland factory. The hammer is not USGI. The disconnector may be a foreign contract. Note the number 2 in the C. I have observed other numbers in a C on disconnectors. I have also observed the same markings on recoil plates. We know these are post-war due to a slight design dimension change. This suggests the disconnector would be from the same manufacturer and time frame. The stock is a late war style pot belly which has a distinctive shape to it. It was made by Overton for Inland. To some like myself has somewhat of collector value. If and when I get an M2 I certainly would want that stock for mine. Unfortunately, in my opinion, the stock has been devalued as someone added embellishments to it. My conundrum of obtaining an M2 is that if a collectible receiver and on the odd chance of finding an original I would then be hesitant to shoot it. What fun is there to that. If I obtained an original barreled receiver I could just correct it to original parts. I doubt that would add value from an NFA point of view. It might also not be the best idea as it may not be the best combination for getting the timing just right. (unless you had access to many correct parts). I once passed on a registered trigger housing because I was under the assumption that the ATF may take a dim view at some point as it is not one of the "Special" parts Anyway my thanks to Dave for sharing this carbine with me.

If you are talking about the longitudinal line in second bolt picture, then you are seeing the feed ramp on the bolt. http://www.uscarbinecal30.com/bolts.html Scroll to second and third blue background pictures. I would be interested in good pictures of the lug areas on the receiver, headspace measurements and muzzle erosion numbers.