WWII502 Posted March 3, 2012 Report Share Posted March 3, 2012 I have a civilian Winchester model 12, for displays I want to make it a trench gun. I need a heat shield, bayonet lug, and a short barrel. I may use it for Vietnam reenactment, so I would prefer a nice barrel for blanks. Thanks Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TSMGguy Posted March 7, 2012 Report Share Posted March 7, 2012 Unfortunately, it's more complicated than that. The civilian Winchester Model 12 barrels had a different taper than the trench gun barrels did. Even if you find the right bayonet mount, it cannot be made to fit properly. A few years back, I found and purchased a very nice 1942 Model 12 trench. When it went through my local gun shop at delievery, it set off a flurry of model 12 trench conversions. They did not work well because of the problem above. Also, the Model 12 trench guns could not be taken down like the civilian models, and had a different magazine tube and plug. None of this is to say that a conversion can't be done, but it requires a trench barrel and other parts as well. There's one outfit doing successful model 12 conversions that I know of, and thats Counterfeit Trench Guns, LLC (MUTLEY815H on Gunbroker). They have licked the problems above by using original trench barrels and parts, but it makes for a gun that is very expensive! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WWII502 Posted March 7, 2012 Author Report Share Posted March 7, 2012 I will check them out thank you.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WWII502 Posted March 7, 2012 Author Report Share Posted March 7, 2012 Sorry but I wanted to ask real quick what do you consider pricy? Just wondering if you know how much.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
emmagee1917 Posted March 8, 2012 Report Share Posted March 8, 2012 Depends on how picky you are. USGI parts are rare and a ton of people are looking for them which means when one shows up the seller can ask what he wants. A $1000 to $1500 would not be unheard of. If you don't want the up to many year wait , repro handguards/ lugs ( aka heatshields ) can be had for $250 or less . A commercial riot barrel could be used . As was said , the taper is different , but many riots were converted to trenches post WW2 by having a bushing machined to fill the difference . Because you are going for a '60s look , that would be proper . Not sure how the bushing was attached to the barrel . Also not sure how much of the mag tube was modified in the conversions , if any at all. But this would be a cheeper , quicker , and correct option for you to consider.Chris Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WWII502 Posted March 8, 2012 Author Report Share Posted March 8, 2012 Depends on how picky you are. USGI parts are rare and a ton of people are looking for them which means when one shows up the seller can ask what he wants. A $1000 to $1500 would not be unheard of. If you don't want the up to many year wait , repro handguards/ lugs ( aka heatshields ) can be had for $250 or less . A commercial riot barrel could be used . As was said , the taper is different , but many riots were converted to trenches post WW2 by having a bushing machined to fill the difference . Because you are going for a '60s look , that would be proper . Not sure how the bushing was attached to the barrel . Also not sure how much of the mag tube was modified in the conversions , if any at all. But this would be a cheeper , quicker , and correct option for you to consider.Chris Repro is fine with me... Do you know where to get repro parts? Or just gunbroker? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TSMGguy Posted March 8, 2012 Report Share Posted March 8, 2012 Sorry but I wanted to ask real quick what do you consider pricy? Just wondering if you know how much.... The model 12 trench conversion mentioned went for $2,000. It was beautiful and IMHO worth it. The owner of CTG is exploring the idea of doing future conversions with the WWII markings. These will be spectacular. I have Stevens 520 and 620 trench conversions from CTG and they are beautiful. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jim c 351 Posted March 8, 2012 Report Share Posted March 8, 2012 I have a civilian Winchester model 12, for displays I want to make it a trench gun. I need a heat shield, bayonet lug, and a short barrel. I may use it for Vietnam reenactment, so I would prefer a nice barrel for blanks. Thanks You should probably leave the Win M12 as is and use it to re-enact pheasant hunts or trap shoots. You could buy a cheaper Rem 870 or Stevens 77E for VN re-enactments.Jim C Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WWII502 Posted March 9, 2012 Author Report Share Posted March 9, 2012 Sorry but I wanted to ask real quick what do you consider pricy? Just wondering if you know how much.... The model 12 trench conversion mentioned went for $2,000. It was beautiful and IMHO worth it. The owner of CTG is exploring the idea of doing future conversions with the WWII markings. These will be spectacular. I have Stevens 520 and 620 trench conversions from CTG and they are beautiful. That's not to bad, I'm going to look into them... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WWII502 Posted March 9, 2012 Author Report Share Posted March 9, 2012 (edited) I have a civilian Winchester model 12, for displays I want to make it a trench gun. I need a heat shield, bayonet lug, and a short barrel. I may use it for Vietnam reenactment, so I would prefer a nice barrel for blanks. Thanks You should probably leave the Win M12 as is and use it to re-enact pheasant hunts or trap shoots. You could buy a cheaper Rem 870 or Stevens 77E for VN re-enactments.Jim CI know the 870 was developed in 51, but I didn't think it was used as a trench gun in Vietnam... I dunno about the other shotgun, but I was only aware of two models used the model 12 and the model 1897.... Any info you might have on other models would be great.... Edited March 9, 2012 by WWII502 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jim c 351 Posted March 9, 2012 Report Share Posted March 9, 2012 (edited) I have a civilian Winchester model 12, for displays I want to make it a trench gun. I need a heat shield, bayonet lug, and a short barrel. I may use it for Vietnam reenactment, so I would prefer a nice barrel for blanks. Thanks You should probably leave the Win M12 as is and use it to re-enact pheasant hunts or trap shoots. You could buy a cheaper Rem 870 or Stevens 77E for VN re-enactments.Jim CI know the 870 was developed in 51, but I didn't think it was used as a trench gun in Vietnam... I dunno about the other shotgun, but I was only aware of two models used the model 12 and the model 1897.... Any info you might have on other models would be great....Listed in the pinned section above along with the Win M1200 and Stevens M67.Jim C Edited March 9, 2012 by jim c 351 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WWII502 Posted March 9, 2012 Author Report Share Posted March 9, 2012 Thanks Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WWII502 Posted March 9, 2012 Author Report Share Posted March 9, 2012 Jim C; Okay, I read the section before posting, but admittedly skimmed the shotgun section and jumped to the gear and ammo section due to having my heart set on a model 12. Maybe I should start another thread but we are already going so I have a few questions. First since the 870 had no picture for the style issued in Vietnam, did it have a heat shield and bayonet lug? Second, what was the most common Vietnam era way to carry shells? (I.E.- bandoliers, the shell belts pictured in the section, the shell pouches, etc...) Third, after watching a movie the other night I wonder if any shotgun carrying soldier in Vietnam had a "mare leg" style rear grip on their shotgun? I admittedly have not done much research into Vietnam gear or weapons, or looked for pictures for reference as it is a small part of my hobby compared to WWII. I will start looking around the Internet and maybe the library, but any photos/info anyone might have relatively handy would be great. Thank you for the help do far, and any future help. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
emmagee1917 Posted March 9, 2012 Report Share Posted March 9, 2012 Another option is the Norinco '97 trench that used to be imported a few years ago . I have one as a shooter it it has been great. Needed a little tweeking and fitting ( polishing and burr removal ) at first , but it has run great through several hundred rounds so far . Friend has an earlier one and it's been good too except when he fired it with the bayonet on , it pulled the heatshield forward due to shallow screw grooves . Reset it and it's stayed for regular shooting. I've displayed mine with a bayonet , but never fired it with one on. They tend to be much nicer than the riot version runs.Have not bought repro heatshields , so I don't know who's best / cheepest .Canfield's Complete Guide to Combat Shotguns might be a wise purchase.In the jungle , anything goes if it was thought to give you " the edge ".Chris Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WWII502 Posted March 9, 2012 Author Report Share Posted March 9, 2012 The CO of my unit is sellIng one of those that he never fired for like $150, I might pick it up of they are at least decent quality. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dalbert Posted March 10, 2012 Report Share Posted March 10, 2012 WWII502, You definitely need to get Bruce Canfield's Combat Shotgun book, since you have an interest in the subject. He covers the Vietnam era guns quite well. David Albertdalbert@sturmgewehr.com Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WWII502 Posted March 10, 2012 Author Report Share Posted March 10, 2012 Yea, looks like I have another book to buy... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
colorado1919 Posted June 29, 2012 Report Share Posted June 29, 2012 About carring ammo the soldier probably just used his regular M14 ammo pouches or maybe a Claymore bag. I don't if the army issued a pouch for shotuns in Vietnam. He might have also use an M16 bandolier an filled it with shotgun shells. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baltimoreed11754 Posted October 16, 2014 Report Share Posted October 16, 2014 I picked up a Norinco 1897 trench gun some years ago before SASS introduced Wild Bunch and have had no problems with it other than a cartridge stop screw coming out. I also found an original bayonet on EBay and a cloth covered repro scabbard from What Price Glory. I put all this together with my DI hat, 1912 summer uniform, 1911 and I look like one of Pike Bishops men from the first 25 minutes of The Wild Bunch. I have slam fired this with the bayonet attached and it's a hoot to shoot. If you can find one pick it up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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