Anyone here good at deciphering FOIA paperwork?

[Bob K]

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited March 30, 2023 by Bob K

[Bob K]

FOIA paperwork before my interpolation.

 

See post below

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited January 22, 2023 by Bob K
Wrong order

[Bob K]

xx

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited March 30, 2023 by Bob K

[Bob K]

XXX

Edited November 19, 2023 by Bob K

[Rekraps]

Way out of my league!

[fifthmdec]

FOIA partially redacted ATF form’s really do not help with the manufacturer information and such. Also, that information that may be on a current or previous Form 4 or 3s may not reflect what is in the NFRTR at the NFA.

The Form 2 in your photos , show that your M2 was  submitted, as intent to manufacture or import, and was signed by the responsible party on 6/10/1975. I noticed that the approval date was RIP.  Your M2 is most likely an M1 and was converted or remanufactured to an M2 by the manufacturer on the Form 2.

The Form 2 at the time reflected that it was revised, but still had 1945 on it. The manufacturer looks like they had more than one type of FFL. If it was the same company, then the EIN number on the SOT would be the same for both. 
 

The remanufacture of title 1 fire arms into title 2 NFA weapons was common back then. It is my understanding with the information that is available, only 2% or so were manufactured as M2s by Inland and Winchester in 1944/45. Most of the M2 carbines used in WWII were converted and marked as an M2 with an over stamp by armorers in the field.

Looks like you posted in the M1/M2 carbine section.

Check on the weapon for the SOT information by the manufacturer. It should be stamped or engraved on the weapon. Sometimes there may not be one. Should be company, city and state.

 

Edited January 26, 2023 by fifthmdec
Additional information

[New2brass]

@fifthmdec, what does the RIP mean on the forms?

 

I know nothing on these forms or the special licensing.

What caught my eye was in the first picture(ATF form 3) under lines 9 and 10 it is checked "deal in that type of firearm" and not "manufacturer"

section 10 "Mfr. & Importer of firearms & ammunition" Was Winchester an importer in addition to being a manufacturer?

to the best of my knowledge, other than prototypes and the M2, Winchester did not produce machine guns for civilian sale. The next item is section 6(g) where the serial number is. Below the serial number is 76i5963, which seems to refer to a previous application. if you look at subsequent pictures you can see the number is the previous form when a new application is made.

next picture (ATF form 2) you can see the signature goes lower than the redaction in the previous picture. same shape, deducting it was the same person.

The timeline is possible when Winchester was moving the collection to Wyoming.

There is nothing that i see that I would consider provenance that it was from the Winchester Museum.

It may be better to keep the discussion on this particular firearm be kept in the original post, as well as the original section for those following.

Enjoy!

 

[Bridgeport28A1]

RIP redacted in part?

TD. is pretty good at deciphering FOIA paperwork

[fifthmdec]

Yes, redacted in part. All ATF FOIA requests about a weapon history, NFA. The only information that is not redacted on the Forms is the dates, weapon’s information, sometimes other non taxpayer’s information. The Form 2 has a box for import permit numbers. A Form 2 can be used for Manufacturing or Importing of NFA firearms by FFL/SOT holders that manufacture or import.. Those are no import permit numbers. More photos of this weapon are located in the M1/M2 forum. It is not an original M2 from the factory based on the information available. It is an M2 over stamp. The manufacturer of record most likely did the over stamp.

It is not that difficult to decipher the information contained in the FOIA documents. Every once in awhile, there are other papers that pertain to the weapon history that are not official Treasury or ATF forms. Sometimes the information that is usually redacted in full or partial is present. 
 

Later revised form 2s have boxes for manufacture, import, reactivated and some had remanufactured too. The remanufactured box is no longer on the form. That box was still on the forms as late as 2000.

Yes, there appears to be some sort of written information or signature on top of the form 2, near the internal numbers, with a date of 6/23/75. Since an official of the company signed and dated the form 2 before that date, that would make the case for the examiner’s approval signature.

Other than the dates and forms, model , type of NFA weapon, caliber, barrel and overall length, and SN, everything else is speculation. Unless there is others documented information that coincides with the weapon information.

The date that is the most important is the original date of entry into the NFRTR.

I am always skeptical when there is no documentation on provenance.

We have done many weapon history FOIA requests over the years. The information allowed is pretty straightforward.

 

 

 

 

[Bob K]

4 hours ago, New2brass said:

 

What caught my eye was in the first picture(ATF form 3) under lines 9 and 10 it is checked "deal in that type of firearm" and not "manufacturer"

That box refers back to the transferee which would be RJ Perry.

4 hours ago, New2brass said:

section 10 "Mfr. & Importer of firearms & ammunition" Was Winchester an importer in addition to being a manufacturer?

 

My thought is that it is a catch-all phrase for simplification reasons.

[Bob K]

36 minutes ago, fifthmdec said:

Yes, redacted in part. All ATF FOIA requests about a weapon history, NFA. The only information that is not redacted on the Forms is the dates, weapon’s information, sometimes other non taxpayer’s information. The Form 2 has a box for import permit numbers. A Form 2 can be used for Manufacturing or Importing of NFA firearms by FFL/SOT holders that manufacture or import.. Those are no import permit numbers. More photos of this weapon are located in the M1/M2 forum. It is not an original M2 from the factory based on the information available. It is an M2 over stamp. The manufacturer of record most likely did the over stamp.

Based on the form 2 not having import permit numbers, we can conclude that it wasn't an import, which leaves Manufacturing.

Yes it is an M2 overstamp by Winchester ( well documented in War Baby).

 

 

 

 

[Bob K]

Another thing to ponder. Dan posted a copy of an ad from RJ Perry apparently from 1975 which shows the price of an M2 at $250.

The receipt I show from RJ Perry shows this M2 sold for $450 in 1977.

Did the prices for an M2 jump $200 in 2 years (practically double), or was there something special about this M2?