Record price for M1941 Johnson LMG

[Bruce Canfield]

A M1941 Johnson Light Machine gun sold at the December 2023 Rock Island Auction for $141,000 shattering the previous record in September 2023 of $68,400.  Of course, one auction doesn't set the prevailing market price but it is indicative of the strong demand for a genuine transferable Johnson LMG.

[APEXgunparts]

I thought that this 1941 LMG was the more interesting example:

EXTREMELY LOW SERIAL NUMBER "0102" USMC DOCUMENTED CRANSTON ARMS CO. JOHNSON MODEL 1941 LIGHT MACHINE GUN WITH ORIGINAL AMNESTY REGISTRATION PAPERWORK

This gun sold recently for $68K.
Looking back I should have bought the gun out of Robert Segels collection.

Richard
 

 

[johnsonlmg41]

6 hours ago, APEXgunparts said:

I thought that this 1941 LMG was the more interesting example:

EXTREMELY LOW SERIAL NUMBER "0102" USMC DOCUMENTED CRANSTON ARMS CO. JOHNSON MODEL 1941 LIGHT MACHINE GUN WITH ORIGINAL AMNESTY REGISTRATION PAPERWORK

This gun sold recently for $68K.
Looking back I should have bought the gun out of Robert Segels collection.

Richard
 

 

quite likely the morphys gun doesn't work....or at least work well.   Also missing the bipod which would be tough to find these days.  As to the RIA auction, I don't think I see a trend, other than upwards like everything else, but not to that extent....just yet.  Glad I got what I did when did.  At the time Segels gun was overpriced, like all of them.  The 1917 just sold for less than what he paid for it way back in the day, early 2000's when it was on Dan's table at the creek, so not every gun turns out to be  rose?

[APEXgunparts]

When I last spoke to Robert at a SAR show the 1941 LMG was offered to me at $34K.
It wasn't that many years ago as it was just before he passed away.
At that time I had seen a few sell in the high 50K range.
It was a nice gun and a very fair price, but I have a $$ limit that I follow on such purchases.
After I turned down that deal Robert raised the price of the gun to what he felt it was worth.

I sort of remember looking over that Westinghouse 1917 he had, a very low serial number.
Where did that sell recently?

Richard
 

[johnsonlmg41]

34 was a good number.  Last I saw it, it was listed either 50 or 55K on sturm. 

I looked at the 1917 at the creek, then later that weekend it was marked sold, and it happened to come up in conversation that he bought it from Dan (who was probably brokering it)  It got all split up last week at murphys 

https://auctions.morphyauctions.com/_N__EXCEPTIONAL_CONDITION_ORIGINAL_LOW_SERIAL_NUMB-LOT590154.aspx

I don't have a dollar limit, but I frequently exercise a common sense limit, no matter how bad I might want it.  At 141K+ sales tax, the odds of staying underwater for years or decades would have tripped that limit.

Edited December 15, 2023 by johnsonlmg41

[APEXgunparts]

The 1941 Johnson LMG from the Robert Segel collection did sell at the higher price, or possibly close to that price.
Years ago my friend Clyde got me interested in everything that Melvin Johnson designed / built, and that is probably the closest I will ever get to having the LMG.

My Father worked for Westinghouse (defense radars not appliances or MG's) and I would like to have one of the 1917's they manufactured.
This one from the recent RIA auction sure looked nice:
U.S. Westinghouse Model 1917 Browning Water Cooled Machine Gun with Accessories

I recently acquired a Colt MG38B so another water cooled Browning didn't seem like a good thing to bid on.
I am still getting the Colt all apart and cleaned up.

Richard

[johnsonlmg41]

Never say never!  Your "friend" led you down an evil path.  I think I wandered down that road without help, so I have no one to blame but myself?  Many years ago I stumbled on a rifle, and one thing led to another. 

I have an original finish westinghouse 1917, which is pretty scarce these days.  If I ever decide to part with it, I'll let you know.   I saw the pics of your new Colt on the other site   Personally,  I think that's a keeper as is.  I can't believe someone suggested refinishing it.....fools.  I enjoy cleaning up  guns that have  been greased up and filthy for 70+ years, to uncover a diamond underneath.

[APEXgunparts]

My friend Clyde stayed with the Johnson family while in college.
He made copies of a lot of the documents and reference posters that were stored at the house.
Odd data like the estimates from Kelsey-Hayes to manufacture the 1941 rifle.
He gave me a brochure about the "Johnson Spitfire" carbine.

The Colt MG38B is being a fun new experience.
Lots of cleaning to do, some things to correct, and I am noting the differences of the Colt parts VS the USGI and Israeli 1919 pieces.
That back sight is WAYYYY too complicated for combat use!
I will figure out a way to get a steam hose attached to that big port.
I am a big fan of "good honest wear" on a historical firearm, and how to respect that.
I also try to not ADD my own marks for some future "caretaker" to ponder over!
Every so often as a collector you run across a true "time capsule" and those can be a fascinating study.

I bet your 1917 Westinghouse is a really nice example of the guns from that era.
Those factories had huge work forces to accomplish all the fitting and finishing required of a military arm by the inspectors that accepted them into service.

Richard

[johnsonlmg41]

Wow, your friend lucked into a great experience back in the day!   Bruce's book, the manuals, other memorabilia, Mel Johnson's book,  and of course having the guns in hand,   all combined have been my references over the years.  There was a good amount of ground breaking work in all the guns he did, but of course timing is everything.

It's hard to imagine how they made most of the guns of the WWI era in general and the skills people had that are now just about gone?  The amount of labor must have been crazy, and yet all these countries turned out pretty complicated pieces that worked well, and continue to work today, 100+ years later. 

A pic of the Browning....with a Johnson garnish on the plate.   This gun sits on 1918 tripod currently and has all the stuff including the .22 kit.  This came out of a very old unknown collection that started in the early 50's and the last gun came in about 1970.  The entire house was a time capsule including the mint  Model T, to the 40+ vintage hurricane lamps throughout the house and other things that "became" collectible during this guy's lifespan. 

 

 

[APEXgunparts]

Man that optical sight and stock are quite awesome!
That gun has that nice "honest wear" that I like.
The Johnson sure looks great.
Clyde has copies of letters that Marines sent to Melvin Johnson where they make reports of the rifle and MG use in combat.

You know, in the next town over (Brookline) from where I grew up in southern NH was L.E. Cory's gun shop.
He was a retired railroad person.
Had the same Model T truck he bought new as a young man, he just maintained it and still drove it.
I used to enjoy being at his shop, looking over the guns and listening to him.
I know he had an H&R T48 in his collection, and other MG's.
My interest in all things military goes back to before high school.
I saw a lot of neat stuff at NH flea markets and yard sales.
I was offered a Thompson to purchase, I think I was in 10th grade?
Gent kept it after WW2 and had it stowed in a box under his bed, I never went to see it as I figured it wasn't legal.
I wasn't very daring growing up!

Richard
 

[JSDKMS]

On 12/13/2023 at 9:30 PM, johnsonlmg41 said:

quite likely the morphys gun doesn't work....or at least work well.   Also missing the bipod which would be tough to find these days.  As to the RIA auction, I don't think I see a trend, other than upwards like everything else, but not to that extent....just yet.  Glad I got what I did when did.  At the time Segels gun was overpriced, like all of them.  The 1917 just sold for less than what he paid for it way back in the day, early 2000's when it was on Dan's table at the creek, so not every gun turns out to be  rose?

Oh, the Morphy's gun runs just fine! NO issues at all! Just shot it a my buddies farm and it is sweet. I think he got a real deal!

[APEXgunparts]

4 hours ago, JSDKMS said:

Oh, the Morphy's gun runs just fine! NO issues at all! Just shot it a my buddies farm and it is sweet. I think he got a real deal!

Very cool, any pictures?

Richard