Nra And The Nfa

[lostminer]

Hi All,

Just got the June issue of American Rifleman. The Editor's Letter by Mark Keefe is a strong endorsement for the NATO Response (attack one of us, attack all of us) to further gun control. I know there are several members of this board who are wary of the NRA's position on us NFA guys and believe they sold out the NFA in '68 and '86. With further controls on the horizon, particularly if the D's take the White House and get more Congressional control in the '08 election, this could be coming at us.

Keefe's last paragraph seems pretty straight forward, "You may not own or shoot a firearm that the Violence Policy Center or other gun-ban groups want confiscated today, but be forewarned; your turn is coming. we must stand together and stand firm."

I'm going to email Keefe and see what he has to say.

What do you think? Is this the real position of NRA or just raw meat for the troops?

Gary http://www.machinegunbooks.com/forums/invboard1_1_2/upload/html/emoticons/soapbox.gif

 

[v188]

They don't care.

 

They (NRA) tried to derail the recent Parker lawsuit in DC, for goodness sakes. They are a useful lobby group, due to their size, but they don't have our (NFA) best interests at heart.

 

Disclaimer, I am a NRA member.

[The Lone Ranger]

BIG can o' worms on this:

 

I am a life NRA member and am very wary of the organization on anything related to NFA among other things.

 

Check out last page of the Hard Corp Report http://www.firearmscoalition.org/

 

If you are interested, I have a pdf of the 2006 senate candidate survey that states NRA supports current restrictions on NFA. Also, they have been silent on some good issues such as inconsistent and conflicting rulings involving NFA.

 

I have written asking about the lack of action on these issues - response: __________

 

I also suspect they are not as anti-gun control as we are led to believe because it appears NRA is still trying to kill the Parker case before it gets to SCOTUS.

 

http://www.washtimes.com/commentary/200307...93717-6859r.htm

 

The May issue of "America's First Freedom" celebrated the court decision but at the same time predicted Sen. Kay Hutchinson would introduce another bill to repeal the DC ban. According to the Parker attorneys, this would remove standing of the plaintiffs and derail the case. Could it be that a SCOTUS decision in favor of gun rights could dry up donations down the road?

[GUNGUY45]

The last few issues of American Rifleman have had Full auto arms in them,(Reising, Etc.), however when you read the articles it seems that they are perpetuating the myth that you need a "Special License" to own one.

I am an Endowment member, but I feel that they are more interested in almost any issue than Full Auto arms.

 

Pete A.

[The Lone Ranger]

UPDATE:

 

Got the new NRA read yesterday. KBH has now introduced SB 1001. I looked it up on Thomas and there it was with a healthy list of co-sponsors. Looks like we may be undone yet. Sad to say I am afraid of the gun rights groups on this one. I hope they haven't turned into government bureaucracies, just looking for self preservation. It seems like there would still be a need for them; maybe more than ever, as the antis/libs/communists or whatever they call themselves this week will not go away or relent and a favorable SCOTUS ruling would not be the end all by any means - more like a launching pad for potential progress in the future in striking down current and future proposed restrictions.

 

Phil: I agree 100% - I don't ever recall seeing Wayne's EVP position up for vote on the ballot. Why is that?

 

 

[lostminer]

After checking out Lone Ranger's links and then reading LaPierre's column in the latest Rifleman there sure looks like there's a disconnect here. By reading the column I would think NRA is 100 % behind the Parker case yet the Washington Times op\ed definitely brings into question NRA motives. After being a NRA Life Member for 20 years I guess I nievly thought better of them. http://www.machinegunbooks.com/forums/invboard1_1_2/upload/html/emoticons/banghead.gif

With the DC Circuit refusing a full court hearing it looks like things are set up for a SC appeal. Will be interesting to see where all this goes.

Gary

[The Lone Ranger]

Phil:

 

Since this thread started I talked to another long time NRA member who said basically what you did about Wayne and the pres./board members being figurehead posts. I knew there was a collision with Mr. Knox, but did not know the details. For years his column was my #1 stopping point in SGN (still is under his sons). I want to believe the 86 sellout would not have occurred if more thought like he did.

 

Sounds like we have to wait for WL to retire and hope there isn't a successor in training waiting to take his place.

[RoscoeTurner]

NFA collectors were sacrificed by the NRA to push what has turned out to be a worthless bill through congress in 1986. In recent years I have yet to receive a reply when I have asked a NRA representative about the sellout, it is almost as though there were an internal policy to ignore the subject. I do not believe the NRA actually considers NFA collectors as their kind of people.

 

Below are some exerts from a letter dated 6 August 1986 from Thomas J. Kallay, Information and Member Services Division of the NRA. The letter was in response to a letter I had sent to the NRA inquiring about the “Sellout”.

 

The amendment referenced is the Volkmer-McClure Bill -

 

“Finally, we did not consider “killing” the bill over this uncertain amendment. The gun owning community has been fighting for seven long, hard years for the chance to see the Firearm Owners Protection Act become law. Our members, through NRA-ILA and the Political Victory Fund, have expended an enormous amount of time, money and other resources in pursuit of this goal. Our responsibility to the overwhelming majority of our members who will benefit from this law --- and the rest of the nation’s 60 million firearms owners – compels us to take this opportunity while we can.”

 

In other words, they did not consider NFA owners worth defending to have this as time has proven worthless bill passed.

 

“Since the President has signed the bill, we are now prepared to fight again for any necessary remedial legislation on machine-guns. We would not, however, risk all we have gained because of a bad amendment we believe can be corrected later.”

 

DOES ANY ONE KNOW OF ANY EFFORT MADE BY THE NRA TO ACT ON THE PREVIOUS STATEMENT? I do not know of any serious move what so ever on the NRA's part to "fight again for any necessary remedial legislation".

 

Since receiving that letter in 1986 I have never trusted the NRA or its leadership, nor with the exception of buying my nephew a life membership has a dollar crossed from my hand to theirs. I will not donate to an organization that does not protect it’s members equally. If you are a trap shooter or target shooter the NRA stands behind you 100%, any other gun owners had better watch out because the NRA may not be there for you. You could be the next catagory sacrificed to protect the golden ones.

 

JK

NRA Life Member

Edited November 8, 2007 by RoscoeTurner

[RoscoeTurner]

Have they or will they? 'Course not. Unlikely at least. Of course, only 21 years have passed. Maybe they are just getting all geared up for the big push on our behalf. Once again, it's all about Wayne LaPierre and his clique, and their dictatorial choke hold on the management of NRA and its entire electoral process. Until these people die off or are bodily thrown out, nothing will change. That's the pity of what NRA has evolved into.

 

 

I asked a NRA representative last year if Wayne LaPierre's post was elected or one he held for life. Believe it or not the representative did not want to answer the question.

[DINK]

The NRA wishes fervently that all of us Class III loonies would quietly disappear. Yes, they sold us out in 1986. Yes, they sold us out in 1968. Yes, they sold us out in 1934. They will pay lip service to the Class III community in an effort to keep the money flowing, but that's all. As noted, when you try to nail them down on their "official" position on full auto firearms they clam up.

 

In their defense, I will acknowledge that coming out with a straightforward defense of machine guns would be like handing Sarah Brady and her ilk a big club to beat them with and would be really bad in a public relations way but there are other ways to quietly get things done and they won't lift a finger to actually do anything. Remember when "W" was first elected? We had Sarah moaning about how the NRA would be dictating policy from the oval office. In six years with a supposedly conservative president and a Republican-controlled Congress, what did the gun owners of America get? SIX FRIGGING YEARS!!!!! We got the Protection of Commerce Act and the AWB was allowed to sunset. That's it. One should have been a slam-dunk and the other didn't actually involve doing anything- just NOT doing something.

 

Wayne LaPierre is just another political whore that will sell NRA to the highest bidder. He has a lock on his seat that nobody can break because he is "appointed" by the Board of Directors and those Board elections are very carefully controlled. The old Soviet Politburo had free and open elections compared to the NRA. Neil Knox led a member revolt back in the 70s, but since then the gains he made have been slowly eroded away and old Wayne is firmly back in the driver's seat again. He has no intention of actually winning the gun rights fight because he would be out of a job. Every time the libs make scary noises he jumps for joy because he can crank up the propaganda scare machine and start pumping out those mailings we all enjoy so much.

 

Because of it's size the NRA can be effective, but without the right leadership it's just a big, bloated inert mass.

 

And I am a life member of the NRA.

[Z3BigDaddy]

I don't believe in all the conspiracy theories but I do believe, yes, the NRA probably looks at class III as possibly expendable. I do like that the AR is spending more ink on class III. It is my VERY firm belief that what gun freedoms that we have left are because of the NRA..... I have supported them in the past and will in the future.... Now that being said is there a specific class III lobby group even around?

[RoscoeTurner]

I don't believe in all the conspiracy theories but I do believe, yes, the NRA probably looks at class III as possibly expendable. I do like that the AR is spending more ink on class III. It is my VERY firm belief that what gun freedoms that we have left are because of the NRA..... I have supported them in the past and will in the future.... Now that being said is there a specific class III lobby group even around?

 

The NRA has already looked at Class III as expendable and has acted upon it. The question now is which group do they look at as the next one that is expendable.

 

I support the NRA to a point but never blindly. I trust the leadership of BATF about as much as I do the leadership of the NRA.

 

 

[Z3BigDaddy]

I agree with you RT... Question Authority has been my motto for some time... I kinda agree with PO on this one.... Wayne has made himself into some kind of Idi Amin pop icon. In his mind I think he thinks He is the NRA and we are just funding for Him. Might be time for another revolt?

[The Lone Ranger]

Chris Cox (NRA-ILA) was on Glenn Beck a few weeks ago and pretty much summed it up with something to the effect of "The NRA has never advocated machine gun ownership"... He and Paul Helmke (Brady Bunch) agreed on that. I wrote to Beck offering to debate both Cox and Helmke on MG ownership, or better yet hook him up w/someone smarter than me to do it. :soap:

[GPDT]

I completely agree that we are an endangered species.

 

I am not currently a member of the NRA. My instincts tell me I probably should be but here's what I do instead. Each year, I spend a certain amount of time and money taking "non-gun" people out to go shooting. We usually start with a .22 and then increase caliber and rof according to the person's interests and abilities. My hope is that each year I'll help a few tax paying, hard working voters and future voters that guns can be safe, fun and useful. [by the way, absolutely nothing can convert folks like a suppressed M16 in .22lr!]

 

My thought is that long term U.S. gun rights will in short order be decided by women and children.

 

Think I'm wrong? Look around at the next gun show you attend. The average age of those attending is quickly getting older not younger. Sadly, I believe a super majority of the attendees will be dead within 45 years. Heck, at the show I went to on Sunday, most of those attendees won't be here is 35 years. Seriously sad for lots of personal reasons but seriously true never the less.

 

To me the best way to insure that my (eventual) grandkids may enjoy lawful firearm ownership, including class III, is to spend my time and money helping new people to the ranks.

 

As an example, I have on several occasions (with the tremendous help of my Dad and another Thompson/class III enthusiast) helped large groups of Boy Scouts learn about and shoot class III firearms. To me, those types of actions will pay more dividends than NRA dues. My Dad and the other Thompson/Class III enthusiast hedge their bets by doing both.

 

What would happen if every member of the NRA volunteered a small amount of their time and ammo to taking a non-gun person to the range?

 

If you care about long term lawful ownership of firearms in the U.S., getting women and children to the range should be high on your list of things to do.

[The Lone Ranger]

Strangely enough, I have not got an invite yet, Phil. <_>

 

NRA looks like some other 3 letter bloated bureaucracies. Call me cynical, but I think NRA wants ATF, Brady, HCI, etc. around - strong and active as possible because peace means less cashflow.

 

GPDT - an occasional box of ammo goes a long way - tiny investment in the future which could yield excellent returns.

 

Speaking of rebellion - any of you NRA members think it would be feasible to try to recruit some of our fellow members to endorse a nice letter to the BOD asking for some support? Maybe even pledging to cut donations an CC the other lobby.orgs so as to show some possible recruits for any group that was willing to step up? Granted, we would need LOTS o' names and member #s just to get on the radar, so not a short term project.

[RoscoeTurner]

Strangely enough, I have not got an invite yet, Phil. <_>

 

NRA looks like some other 3 letter bloated bureaucracies. Call me cynical, but I think NRA wants ATF, Brady, HCI, etc. around - strong and active as possible because peace means less cashflow.

 

GPDT - an occasional box of ammo goes a long way - tiny investment in the future which could yield excellent returns.

 

Speaking of rebellion - any of you NRA members think it would be feasible to try to recruit some of our fellow members to endorse a nice letter to the BOD asking for some support? Maybe even pledging to cut donations an CC the other lobby.orgs so as to show some possible recruits for any group that was willing to step up? Granted, we would need LOTS o' names and member #s just to get on the radar, so not a short term project.

 

Possibly we could send the NRA copies of the donation checks we send to GOA rather than the NRA since we are not wanted by the NRA.

Edited November 14, 2007 by RoscoeTurner

[inertord]

Why not join or donate to The National Firearms Act Trade and Collectors Association: http://www.nfatca.org/news.htm

[RoscoeTurner]

Why not join or donate to The National Firearms Act Trade and Collectors Association: http://www.nfatca.org/news.htm

 

No thank you. I still feel burned from the National Association of Stocking Dealers deal. If not for that reason, the assocation member fee of $250 per year is a big enough turn off. It is not that I cannot afford the fee, I just feel at present the amount charged is unjustified. Also the statement of "...and whose membership is approved by the Board of Directors" on the application just a bit past the elitest attitude level I try to avoid, besides none on the board personally know me so how would they know to approve or not.

Edited November 14, 2007 by RoscoeTurner

[The Lone Ranger]

NFATCA managed to do something no other .org has when they got the NFA procedures in writing. Next is a similar project on FTB procedures - things that needed done, but most of us just complained about while never making any improvements. No doubt they give the most bang for the buck on NFA issues. Would be better if a larger group such as NRA would lend even a bit of support, but under the current management, that will not happen.

 

If I were to guess, the "approved by the board" bit might be in case of some intended sabotage from "our own" (as well as some less diabolical reason) - some people are content w/status quo (chaos) and quite upset at the thought of any improvements (see earlier peace and cashflow comment). I would suggest contacting one of the board members and throwing that question out - all are very approachable and seemingly (to me anyway) open minded types who are always looking for a good idea, no matter who the source is. In fact, I will give it a shot for you and try to post an answer here in the next day or two - kinda curious to see if my tinfoil hat is too tight.

[RoscoeTurner]

NFATCA managed to do something no other .org has when they got the NFA procedures in writing. Next is a similar project on FTB procedures - things that needed done, but most of us just complained about while never making any improvements. No doubt they give the most bang for the buck on NFA issues. Would be better if a larger group such as NRA would lend even a bit of support, but under the current management, that will not happen.

 

If I were to guess, the "approved by the board" bit might be in case of some intended sabotage from "our own" (as well as some less diabolical reason) - some people are content w/status quo (chaos) and quite upset at the thought of any improvements (see earlier peace and cashflow comment). I would suggest contacting one of the board members and throwing that question out - all are very approachable and seemingly (to me anyway) open minded types who are always looking for a good idea, no matter who the source is. In fact, I will give it a shot for you and try to post an answer here in the next day or two - kinda curious to see if my tinfoil hat is too tight.

 

 

I have been collecting NFA firearms for over thirty years and have been a Class I dealer for over 25 years. I have never had any problem reading the regulations provided to me by the BATF or comprehending them, all the NFATCA book did was provide a more convenient format to find the answers. Now, that book may be of more service to manufacturers than it is to me as a collector, that aspect of it I have no need of since I only buy C&R Class III firearms.

 

With the NRA's track record with regard to NFA firearms I would much rather see a group such as the GOA take the lead. At least the GOA supports all gun owners rather than a select group of them.

 

The "approved by the board" bit unfortunately can go both ways. It just struck me as a bit arrogant, I may be wrong. The NFATCA may be a great organization but for now I have no plans to join as I believe it is more aimed at dealers and manufacturers than collectors.

[The Lone Ranger]

I have been collecting NFA firearms for over thirty years and have been a Class I dealer for over 25 years. I have never had any problem reading the regulations provided to me by the BATF or comprehending them, all the NFATCA book did was provide a more convenient format to find the answers. Now, that book may be of more service to manufacturers than it is to me as a collector, that aspect of it I have no need of since I only buy C&R Class III firearms.

 

With the NRA's track record with regard to NFA firearms I would much rather see a group such as the GOA take the lead. At least the GOA supports all gun owners rather than a select group of them.

 

The "approved by the board" bit unfortunately can go both ways. It just struck me as a bit arrogant, I may be wrong. The NFATCA may be a great organization but for now I have no plans to join as I believe it is more aimed at dealers and manufacturers than collectors.

 

One would expect common reactions like yours - "what's the big deal", but some people apparently didn't bother reading the books ATF provided, even going so far as to proclaim some sort of unholy alliance between ATF and NFATCA and "new" laws and regulations that had not existed the day before that book was posted on the website. If putting it in a more user friendly format gets some folks to read up and stay out of trouble so much the better. Aside from that, some things are not in the regulations, such as the rather lengthy DEWAT/REWAT thread we had going a couple of weeks ago. You can't look in USC or CFR and read about them because the terminology doesn't exist.

 

If NFATCA succeeds in getting written FTB procedures, it will, to the best of my knowledge, be the first time in history and something no other lobby group or congress has been able to do. While it will likely never affect me, it could be a benefit to anyone who builds anything, personal or commercial.

 

Unfortunately, I don't see GOA (who, like NRA, asked members to assist in submarining Parker/Heller by encouraging legislators to rescind the ban before the case could get to court) or anyone else stepping up legislatively on 922(o). They've all had 21+ to mull it over with no movement beyond lipservice. The only realistic hope I can see is getting the mainstream of the membership to tell management that letting a gun ban sit is unacceptable and present an image of possible funds reduction. Considering most of them don't know, care, or care to know bcause their particualr firearms of interest are not in immediate danger, it will take some work.

[RoscoeTurner]

One would expect common reactions like yours - "what's the big deal", but some people apparently didn't bother reading the books ATF provided, ....

 

Well, it would seem that these same people might not bother to take the time to read the NFATCA book either. Kinda reminds me of the old saying - "You can lead a horse to water but you cannot make him drink." Some people and reading are the same way.

 

Back in the olden days, the 1980's, it paid to read those books ATF provided. The internet wasn't there so if you needed to know something you read those books and if further clarification was needed you contacted the ATF. I tend to operate on the principal that they give me those books for a reason so I had better be familiar with them. If not the lick is on me.

 

True, I do look at this as you suspect, I did not see the NFATCA book as any great revelation. I have a copy of the book and it is a good reference but it did not replace the tabbed and highlighted ATF provided book I normally use. As I said earlier, the NFATCA to me is more directed at manufacturers and dealers than collectors. The firearms I buy are unmodified C&R firearms where the regulations dealing with them are quite clear and have not changed much in many years. Having read the NFATCA book regarding C&R's I did not see any thing I did not already know.

 

Like you the FTB procedures will never effect me since I collect original unaltered firearms, what I have and will have are machine guns that do not need further testing to determine that they are in fact machine guns. If they weren't machine guns I would not be buying or trading them.

[The Lone Ranger]

Well, it would seem that these same people might not bother to take the time to read the NFATCA book either. Kinda reminds me of the old saying - "You can lead a horse to water but you cannot make him drink." Some people and reading are the same way.

 

Man, you are cracking me up... "You can send a kid to college but you can't make him think"... a bit of Darwinism exists out there, like going into a shop and seeing the reg book still in the dust covered shrink wrap. :slap:

 

I haven't been around as long as you, my oldest is the 2000 "green book" with highlighter and sticky tabs. I do the same - bought and downloaded the handbook, but always go to old faithful first on instinct. Another good use for that book is newcomers. Will save them some bouncing around if they are looking for the nuts and bolts in short order.

 

 

[RoscoeTurner]

The NRA/NFA topic was discussed last month here but this morning I found a very interesting article in the Washington Post that pretty much mirrors the discussion regarding the direction of the NRA.

 

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/conte...l?tid=informbox

 

For the record, I am a life member of the NRA but that decision was made pre 1986.