Drebbel Posted May 23, 2004 Report Share Posted May 23, 2004 (edited) Ahoy everybody, I found the following text in a naval officers (submariner) WWII notebook, QUOTE Thompson sub machine gun 45 c 8.8 mm, 296305, 105333, 14491 mod u.o. 1941 The text "u.o." is not really clear and could have been misread by me. Does any one know where to find an image of this gun and or have more info on this gun ? It supposed to be aboard a Dutch submarine in WWII. Would this be a weapon that was kept down below and mounted on some kind of 'tripod' on the bridge when needed? Or was this a type of weapon that shore parties would take along? QUOTE Vickers 7.9 mm, 0.303" 60 #1, 1 type A, #3365, $33529, #34692 The text "60" is not really clear and could also be "GO" as well. Does any one know where to find an image of this gun and or have more info on this gun ? It supposed to be aboard a Dutch submarine in WWII. Would this be a weapon that was kept down below and mounted on some kind of 'tripod' on the bridge when needed ? Or was this a type of weapon that shore parties would take along ? Thanks in advance for your help Edited May 23, 2004 by Drebbel Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TD. Posted May 24, 2004 Report Share Posted May 24, 2004 Hi Drebbel, Welcome to the Thompson Board. The Thompson Submachine Gun is the type of weapon that shore parties would have used. I have never heard of a Thompson being tripod mounted on a submarine. It appears the three numbers in your post, 296305, 105333, 14491, may be serial numbers of specific Thompson guns. If so, 14491 could be the serial number of an early Colt Thompson. Is it possible for you to post the actual cite from the naval officers WWII handbook that references this quote. Someone else will have to answer about the Vickers. I wonder if the numbers cited in the Vickers quote may be serial numbers? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Drebbel Posted May 24, 2004 Author Report Share Posted May 24, 2004 (edited) Ahoy TD and others, Thankds for the help. The quote is NOT from a handbook but from an officers personal notebook. http://www.dutchsubmarines.com/hosting/images/other/tommygun.jpg With tripod I meant to ask if this type of was was generally used on the bridge by being brought up from down below and being mounted on the bridge somewhere/somehow Would be great if one of you guys could track those serial numbers (if that is what they are) down. Any comments on the "45 c 8.8 mm" part and the text "mod u.o. 1941" ? Edited May 24, 2004 by Drebbel Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TD. Posted May 24, 2004 Report Share Posted May 24, 2004 The Thompson Submachine Gun would be an excellent weapon to have on the bridge. However, it would be a hand held submachine gun. I have never seen or heard of a military mounted Thompson. Pictures exist of the Thompson mounted in airplanes and on motorcycles when it was first offered on the market (1921), however, this use was experimental (airplanes) or very limited (motorcycles). None of these mounts are known to exist today. My guess is the markings "45 c 8.8 mm" and "mod u.o. 1941" represent Dutch Military/Navy nomenclature markings for this weapon. The Thompson is chambered for .45 ACP ammunition - ACP means: Automatic Colt Pistol. I suggest researching Dutch military sources and see if the Thompson was ever adopted as a standard or limited standard weapon in the Dutch military (Navy). If so adopted, it was probably given a Dutch name and nomenclature. A clue may be the 1941 date. Perhaps the Thompson was adopted by the Dutch Navy in 1941 and is referred to as the Model of 1941 - just a guess on my part. The 8.8mm may be some metric measurement of the .45 ACP round - again, just a guess on my part. If any military museums exist in the Netherlands, I would check to see if a Thompson is on display or in inventory. If the numbers cited in the officers personal notebook are indeed serial numbers, perhaps one or more of these Thompsons still exist today. Let us know what you find out - especially if you find a museum that has a Thompson on display. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
john Posted May 24, 2004 Report Share Posted May 24, 2004 My take on this.... 8.8mm gotta be pretty close to .45 cal....probably metric conversion. 45c - "c" obviously stands for cartridge. As for the three numbers, there were three guns. And the mysterious U.O.?? How about A.O.?? and procured (or issued??) in 1941? I believe this would be consistent as I believe (without digging out the books) that Auto-Ordnance had produced 1928 (A.O.) models through those serial numbers by 1941 at the Bridgeport plant and all could have been serial numbered A.O. XXXXX. It'd be cool if my guns serial number was one of those. but alas, it is not! http://www.machinegunbooks.com/forums/invboard1_1_2/upload/html/emoticons/dry.gif Anyone else have a theory?? john Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Drebbel Posted May 24, 2004 Author Report Share Posted May 24, 2004 (edited) Thanks for all the info guys ! - - - The Vickers In a Dutch book about Dutch Navy firearms I just located some info. Might be of interest to you all. Vickers 7.9 No.2 System: Vickers-Maxim Since: 1927 Cooled: Air Soeed: +/- 550 s/m Feed: Band Cal: 7.9 mm Length: 107 cm Barrel: 72.5 cm Weigth: 15.4 kg Number: 17 Could this be the same gun as is listed in the quoted WWII notebook ? The 2 (in 7.9 mm No.2) might be a Dutch designation and contradicts the info I quoted (7.9 mm No.1), the designation 7.9 No.1 is also listed in the Dutch Navy fire arms book but is used for a Lewis type MG. Unrfortunately the book also states that the Vickers 7.9 mm No2 gun was for airplanes. It also states that in the early 1930's the guns were transferred to the East Indies and some others PROBABLY scrapped. But maybe this gun (as quoted from the note book) could not have been official Dutch Navy. maybe the gun was supplied while this submarine was in the UK. I can imagine in WWII guns were handed out like warm bread and nobody really kept track of who got what, - - - The Thompson In a Dutch book about Dutch Navy firearms I just located some info. Might be of interest to you all. Several Thompson model 1928 were used by Marines on Java (no year given), they got it from the KNIL (Dutch East Indies Army), the KNIL got it from UK War Office. They do not mention it being supplied to the submarine service. They also do not provide any techn. info on the gun The book has a photo of the gun, but unfortunately I seem unable to find my scanner cable :-( There are photos of the gun with a 'stick' as well as drum magazine. - - - QUOTE 8.8mm may be some metric measurement of the .45 ACP round 1 Inch = 25.4 mm There fore: 8.8 mm = 0.346 Inch 0.45 Inch = 11.43 mm So that is not a match :-( QUOTE I believe this would be consistent as I believe (without digging out the books) that Auto-Ordnance had produced 1928 (A.O.) models through those serial numbers by 1941 at the Bridgeport plant and all could have been serial numbered A.O. XXXXX. When I look at the scan it does not really look like A.O., but maybe the guy made a typo. ?! Drebbel Edited May 24, 2004 by Drebbel Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
john Posted May 26, 2004 Report Share Posted May 26, 2004 DOH! What a blunder!! Can't imagine I posted that 8.8 mm (less than a 9mm, for cripes sake!!) "gotta be pretty close to a .45"!!. Hah! http://www.machinegunbooks.com/forums/invboard1_1_2/upload/html/emoticons/blink.gif Was my brain disconnected OR WHAT?? AND there wasn't even any alcohol involved!!! Guess I gotta think about hitting the basic math books again.....I must be gettin' old, eh?? Keep me away from the reloading bench, folks!! john (of questionable mathematics ability, Ha ha ha!!) http://www.machinegunbooks.com/forums/invboard1_1_2/upload/html/emoticons/huh.gif Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
john Posted May 26, 2004 Report Share Posted May 26, 2004 Phil. The reason I was so hard on myself is that I have been into reloading for over 15 years and should have known better!! This was simply a case of "DOH"!! (extreme brain-fart!!) I'll do better next time.....I promise!! http://www.machinegunbooks.com/forums/invboard1_1_2/upload/html/emoticons/dry.gif john Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fullauto Posted May 31, 2004 Report Share Posted May 31, 2004 The Vickers could have been the GO or K type. These were the gas operated aircraft machine guns with a top mounted drum. Just a thought. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bisley45 Posted June 2, 2004 Report Share Posted June 2, 2004 45ACP = 11.25 x 23mm this is what the round was listed as in Norwiegan and Arginian 45 1911's for those who like wierd trivia and may find themselves overseas trying to find a round that is a little hard to come by outside our hemosphere. BB Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Waffen Und Bier Posted June 2, 2004 Report Share Posted June 2, 2004 Could it be U.D. 42 (United Defense), the one shown on the cover of Frank's US SMG book on this website? That date looks like possibly 1942 What is the date of the entry. Maybe that isn't 8.8mm. Are there any other known 8's on the page to compare to? I'm sure the .45 c means .45 caliber, Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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