Author Of American Thunder I & 2 & Blitzkrieg Mp40 Requires Wi

[Arthur Fliegenheimer]

Frank Iannamico, the author of this 1999 SAR article, "The MP-36, The Missing Link," was being overly deferential to the originator of this apocryphal tale by using the ambiguous phrase "very colorful story." Why did Frank perpetuate this myth in his article (and book?) without any annotation to the original source? As for the last sentence, a catch all phrase that is supposed to provide credence to this operation, Iannamico, or his unnamed source, appears to be channeling Peter Kokalis.

 

This particular MP36 has a very colorful story of how it was obtained during WWII. In 1943 a group of volunteers was organized to go on a top secret covert mission. The missions objective was to assassinate Hitler's Reichmarshall and head of the Luftwaffe, Hermann Goring. The attempt on Goring's life was planned to take place at Karinhall located some 40 miles northeast of Berlin. Allied intelligence sources had reported that Goring would be present at Karinhall and that the grounds would be lightly guarded. Karinhall was one of Goring's many extravagant residences. It was named after his late wife who had died prematurely in 1931.

 

The Allied team quietly parachuted into the area at night virtually undetected. Once they reached the grounds surrounding Karinhall they soon discovered that the mansion was being guarded by a private army of Goring's elite Fallschirmjager troops, all well trained and heavily armed. After the German troops discovered the team, a fierce firefight was soon underway

 

During the confusion a particular U.S major managed to slip into the main building to search for Goring. While he was looking around the main hall he spotted a strange, unfamiliar weapon hanging on the wall. Thinking it may be of interest to U.S. intelligence, he removed it and placed it in his pack. He then decided that the mission was failing, and decided to try fighting his way out of a rapidly deteriorating situation. He and a very small portion of the original Allied team managed to escape and make their way back to safety.

 

The weapon remained in the major's possession for the remainder of the war. In 1945 when he returned to the United States he brought the MP36 home as a war souvenir. He stored the gun away and went on with his post war life. The major was unaware of just what a rare piece he had in his possession.

 

The US Army Major who participated in the raid on Karinhall passed away recently after retiring from a very successful career in law enforcement.

The Erma MP36 serial number 014 has survived the past 50 plus odd years in the same immaculate condition as the day it was liberated from Hermann Goring's mansion. The official version of the mission is still classified

 

 

http://www.machinegu...mp36sample.html

 

The German Wiki posting on the MP36 that references Iannimico's article changed the date to 1945. No doubt to give the story a whiff of credibility. Maybe the Germans are just continuing the disinformation campaign to cover for this "still classified" mission. How does Iannimico get the toothpaste back in the tube?

 

 

Die MP 36 mit der Seriennummer „001“ befindet sich im Prager Militärhistorischen Institut, MP 36 mit der Seriennummer „014“ wurde 1945 in Carinhall erbeutet, in die USA mitgenommen und befindet sich nach mehreren Eigentümerwechseln im Besitz des Waffensammlers Lou Pacilla in Pennsylvania.[1]

 

 

http://wikipedia.msn...hinenpistole_40

[jim c 351]

Arthur,

Quite honestly I am shocked. I always thought the only true love of your life was a Colt with a cutts. Now you admit to reading pornography about some German gun.

Now go to your room and don't disapoint us ever again.

Jim C

[Arthur Fliegenheimer]

It must be pornography since the thread was detoured to the Class III forum. While this particular sci-fi story involves an MP-38, the TSMG is also a favorite for unsubstantiated whoppers. The recent sale of the B&C Colt TSMG springs to mind. That Frank endorsed a fantasy yarn about a "German gun" instead of an "American Thunder" gun is not the focal point of the thread. The question is why did the soon to be author of two books on the TSMG blur the line between fact and fiction.

[james m]

I guess if I'm reading this correctly you're stating that the MP36 never existed and the two purported examples are a figment of someones imagination?

Jim

[Arthur Fliegenheimer]

I guess if I'm reading this correctly you're stating that the MP36 never existed and the two purported examples are a figment of someones imagination?

Jim

 

 

After reading Frank Iannimico's article, you determined that I questioned the validity of the existence of the MP-36 and not the following:

 

"1943 a group of volunteers was organized to go on a top secret covert mission. The missions objective was to assassinate Hitler's Reichmarshall and head of the Luftwaffe, Hermann Goring."

 

Come on.

[james m]

These are a LOT of things that took place during WW II that are still classified secrets today. Do you have any proof the there never was a MP36 or that such a mission never occurred?

 

This article maintains there was such a gun.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MP_40

Jim

Edited May 10, 2012 by james m

[Arthur Fliegenheimer]

These are a LOT of things that took place during WW II that are still classified secrets today. Do you have any proof the there never was a MP36 or that such a mission never occurred?

Jim

 

 

Jim,

 

Let's go slowly. Absolutely, there was no such mission in 1943. Of course the MP-36 exists. Who said it didn't? Erma MP36 serial number 014 is/was owned by Lou Pacilla. As far as the absurd story about how it was found, you want me to prove a negative? Are you into 911 woo as well? Look at all the people involved who would know about it including the enemy i.e., the. Germans. Do you think they were sworn to keep this dopey mission classified? There is zero mention of this, with redacted information or not, in any WWII history reference. This only exists in Frank's article. You can't have it both ways. If the mission is still classified, how it is that Frank Iannimico posted it on the net? Are you saying that Frank is another Julian Assange?

Edited May 10, 2012 by Arthur Fliegenheimer

[james m]

Arthur:

New information about WW II comes out all the time. I've been studying this period of history for around 40 years.I have no idea what Frank Iannimico's source for this article may be so I'd suggest you ask him. I personally have never heard of such a mission either but that doesn't mean it didn't happen. I own ,and have of course , read his books and found them to be well researched and factual. I guess you do need to go slowly here as I fail to grasp your point. If it is this mission didn't happen and that's your assertion so be it. If this is a real issue with you take it up with Frank.

I spent the last weekend attending an ISA Appraiser seminar and one of my fellow attendees works for the Smithsonian as a curator identifying art work looted by the Nazis and attempts to return it to the original owners. We discussed the National Archives, which she uses as a source for research, and what they contain. She told me that they've barely scratched the surface with the WW II material held there much of which was confiscated from the Nazis. I have talked to two other researchers I personally know and they have said basically the same thing.

IMO: The complete story of WW II hasn't been written yet and probably never will be.

Jim

Edited May 10, 2012 by james m

[Arthur Fliegenheimer]

Arthur:

New information about WW II comes out all the time. I've been studying this period of history for around 40 years.I have no idea what Frank Iannimico's source for this article may be so I'd suggest you ask him. I personally have never heard of such a mission either but that doesn't mean it didn't happen. I own ,and have of course , read his books and found them to be well researched and factual. I guess you do need to go slowly here as I fail to grasp your point. If it is this mission didn't happen and that's your assertion so be it. If this is a real issue with you take it up with Frank.

I spent the last weekend attending an ISA Appraiser seminar and one of my fellow attendees works for the Smithsonian as a curator identifying art work looted by the Nazis and attempts to return it to the original owners. We discussed the National Archives, which she uses as a source for research, and what they contain. She told me that they've barely scratched the surface with the WW II material held there much of which was confiscated from the Nazis. I have talked to two other researchers I personally know and they have said basically the same thing.

IMO: The complete story of WW II hasn't been written yet and probably never will be.

Jim

 

You didn't say if you believe this story. Do you?

 

It is customary for an author to provide annotations when referencing quoted material. Does Small Arms Review operate on a different principle? If Frank would explain where he got this story from that would be great. Until then, he is the go to source for this utter fabrication in his SAR article

 

Just because the documents Rudolph Hess brought with him to Britain are to remain sealed until 2017 doesn't mean we don't know that he landed his plane in Scotland in 1941 to meet with the Duke of Hamilton. The point is that there is no mention of a 1943 Allied raid on Karinhall anywhere, never mind the "classified" file with the details. The Soviet WWII documents that have been released since 1989 are examples of new information, or at least substantiated information. To justify Frank's non annotated story, or other absurd war stories, with the platitude, "The complete story of WW II hasn't been written yet and probably never will be" is the antithesis of skepticism. Until there are personal accounts/documents to buttress an event there is no reason to include it the historical record, or in a factual article about the MP-36.

 

When a seller concocts a similar story to go along with their war collectible, remember, that even though there is no record of this story in any credible material, it still could have happened.

[james m]

Apparently you have a major beef with Frank Iannimico. If this is in fact the case go work it out with him. Whether I believe or disbelieve the story is immaterial and I'm taking myself out of the middle here which is a position I never sought to be in anyway. I am a student of WW II history period. I continue to study and learn all the time and I think that's the primary goal of ongoing research.

Jim

[emmagee1917]

Two things pop into my mind about this subject .

1) The Reising M65 rat rifle. Try to find info on it. I have one , pictures are in the Reising forum here . I have talked to people who have 1st hand knowledge of it , but so far no official acknowledgement of it.

2) The British Suez Canal Spotlight Tank . You can find info on it's existance , but all you'll find is the cover story. Try to find out why it was one of the greastest weapons of WW2 and why it could have saved hundreds of men at Omaha Beach if the planers had known it's true potential . I'll bet you can't.

Still , even so , without documentation , it's a war story . Back in the '70s and 80s I had WW2 MGs on display at my gunshow tables and I heard a ton of war stories from passerbys . Ones that will never make it into print . You could tell quite often if the story was true or not by thier emotions . I do so miss those days.

Chris

[Sarge]

I am also a history buff, especialy the Civil War, WW 2 and Viet Nam. I have a degree in history.

Could be this tale about going after Göring in 1943 is a figment of someones imagination based on hearing about a similar real mission to get Hitler in 1945? Any of you history buffs ever heard about that one? I know the American in charge of that one and it is discussed in his book in detail.

Sarge

[Arthur Fliegenheimer]

Whether I believe or disbelieve the story is immaterial and I'm taking myself out of the middle here which is a position I never sought to be in anyway. I am a student of WW II history period. I continue to study and learn all the time and I think that's the primary goal of ongoing research.

Jim

 

Actually, whether you, or anyone else, believed the story in Frank's article does have considerable consequence. There is fact and there is fiction. Why you would be noncommittal distinguishing between the two is indeed odd for a "student of history."

Edited May 17, 2012 by Arthur Fliegenheimer

[Arthur Fliegenheimer]

I am also a history buff, especialy the Civil War, WW 2 and Viet Nam. I have a degree in history. Could be this tale about going after Göring in 1943 is a figment of someones imagination based on hearing about a similar real mission to get Hitler in 1945? Any of you history buffs ever heard about that one? I know the American in charge of that one and it is discussed in his book in detail. Sarge

 

SOE's Operations Foxley and Little Foxley are well documented. On the other hand, Frank's 1943 raid on Karinhall is what one would expect to find in an edition of Captain America or Sgt. Fury and his Howling Commandos.