FOIA Request Completed

[MrBill]

I bought a AO M1 four years ago and thought it would be kind of cool to get the FOIA report on the gun. I sent the request Dec. 10 2013 and it showed up in my mailbox yesterday. NFA paperwork requires the patience of JOBE ( i hope i spelled that right).

[buzz]

Well, what does it say?

 

Anything interesting?

[michaelkih]

Does anyone have a template for this request? I'd like to fill it out for all my MGs and maybe read them in 10 years. haha

[huggytree]

i have 3 guns id like to know about....all 3 are in jail right now, but since it takes 4 years what would be wrong with sending the request in right now? i hope the form 4's arent backed up 4 years and should own the gun before they even open the envelope in 3 years 11 months

 

opinions?

[HHollow]

I submiited a FOIA request in July 2014 regarding a MG I had just acquired

I submiited a second FOIA request in June 2015 regarding another MG I had just acquired,

I submiited a FOIA request in July 2016 regarding some testing the ATF did back in 1959.

 

Not a peep so far on the first two FOIA requests. However the third one was handled like they are supposed to be handled. I immediately received a written reply acknowleding the request and warning me the info would be hard to track down. Days later the ATF replied to my request, (less than two weeks after I mailed the request!). Unfortunately, the reply stated that no information could be found.

Edited September 8, 2016 by HHollow

[buzz]

I would not recommend submitting an FOIA except for historic firearms.

 

They typically redact so much information that you're going to pretty much end up knowing when it was first registered and when it changed hands.

 

I doubt that information is worth your time for a MAC10

 

 

If you have a pre-45 Thompson, you should give it a shot. You might get lucky and find out something about the gun.

Edited September 8, 2016 by buzz

[MrBill]

Buzz To answer your question about content....NOT MUCH.....The first redacted form 4 had a date stamp from May of 1965 and the birthdate of that owner was Nov. 1939. I assume he sold gun to the next redacted form 4 in 1981....the next form 4 was to the person I got the gun from. I have no idea where the first buyer got the weapon. does anyone have a guess?

[huggytree]

I would not recommend submitting an FOIA except for historic firearms.

 

They typically redact so much information that you're going to pretty much end up knowing when it was first registered and when it changed hands.

 

I doubt that information is worth your time for a MAC10

 

 

If you have a pre-45 Thompson, you should give it a shot. You might get lucky and find out something about the gun.

 

im curious on my m16a2 govt marked.....curious when it was registered and how many owners....its from the current pallet of A2's that have shown up over the past 2 years which is most likely a gun that was sitting on a shelf at Colt....i should have the gun in 2 months......and i already have the Thompson letter written out and ready to mail...but im guessing that wont be until winter the way form 4's are going.......i was going to send in for the Mac 10 just to see how many owners its had...most likely 1....it tells you how many times transferred right?

[buzz]

Mr Bill,

 

What model is it? The first paperwork is a form 4?

 

 

Huggy,

 

The FOIA will have copies of the previous transfer documents. So might tell you the date the gun was originally registered by the importer or manufacturer and when it was transferred.

 

But there will be forms missing and the ones they do have will be almost 100% redacted.

 

I'm not going to bother submitting one for my Vector UZI. I know from the company history when it was made and I bought it NIB from a big dealer.

 

So if I submit a FOIA, what's the point?

[TD.]

Mr. Bill,

If the first form in the FOIA packet is a 1965 Form 4, then I would suspect this first owner registered the Thompson with the IRS and paid the $200 tax. Is the Form 4 an IRS form? Perhaps some of the long time dealers on the Board can tell us what happened in 1965 when a person in possession of an unregistered machine gun decided to register it. It appears, if the FOIA history is correct, the original owner submitted a Form 4 (with LEO certification and fingerprint cards) along with the tax payment to the IRS.

 

Given the date of birth of the first owner it is very possible he (or she) is still alive. Why not try locating the past owners by contacting the person you purchased it from and asking them where they obtained it. And ask for copies of any IRS forms they may still possess. Then try to locate the next owner. I have done this for several Thompsons. Older (retired) people are generally easier to locate than the younger crowd.

[huggytree]

Huggy,

 

The FOIA will have copies of the previous transfer documents. So might tell you the date the gun was originally registered by the importer or manufacturer and when it was transferred.

 

But there will be forms missing and the ones they do have will be almost 100% redacted.

 

I'm not going to bother submitting one for my Vector UZI. I know from the company history when it was made and I bought it NIB from a big dealer.

 

So if I submit a FOIA, what's the point?

 

 

i agree on the Uzi....im not interested in my NIB Uzi or Mac 10....i am most likely the 2nd owner and what history could they have

 

i know my Ruger Kac556 is a prison gun since i bought it from the wardens kids, but im still curious for the heck of it...id like to know what prison and didnt want to bother them again with a call asking them for a history....

 

my M16 is an unusual situation as many of the NIB M16's are wacky....im curious when it was registered....i dont know if it will tell me it was registered to the Colt company? sounds like most of these guns were sitting around colt and someone is selling pallets of new M16's and remanufactured ones.......hoping for anything to prove my expensive investment in a rare M16 is a fraud or real...most likely it will tell me nothing

 

id love to find anything about my 1940 Thompson.....not sure if it will tell which police dept had it? curious when they sold it to the public?

 

any knowledge is fun and interesting to me.....some history to pass along w/ my gun to someone else some day

 

not sure what to expect from a FOIA

[buzz]

Definitely go for FOIA on the guns with an interesting history. Why not?

 

The only way you're going to find out what prison had the gun from the FOIA is if you get very lucky. That information is typically redacted, blacked out on the tax form

 

 

I gather that you have one of the NIB US property marked M16A2s that were floating around last year.

 

I think you're going to find that those guns are 100% genuine. Nobody can fake the A2 receiver type or the 6 million serial number, and the ones I saw in person were absolutely mint.

 

My understanding is that they were an overrun that were purchased by a Colt employee in 1986 and finally put up for sale.

[huggytree]

yep i have a M16a2 govt marked.....there have been 14 that have come up this year.....one is mine....its minty, but questionable if truely unused.....my guess is someone shot a few mags through it....

 

mine is the lowest serial # of all of them ive seen 6,0xx,xxx while most are 6,2xx,xxxx-6,3xx,xxx....not sure if that makes it an earlier one or not.....

 

next time i go to my gun shop im grabbing my upper.....i want to verify the barrel doesnt have a date code......color is questionable...its not light grey, not black.....but i was told because its in grease still that the color will lighten..........

 

there have been 100+ A2's and NIB A1's in the past 2 years......they are all questionable...i believe mine to be real since its my most expensive gun.....but its questionable right now

 

there are M4's right now for sale....guns that could have not existed in 1986...so most likely they were damaged M16's and old serial #'s rolled onto modern guns for a replacement....if 10% of that collection are fakes/remakes it puts the whole collection in question...not sure what a FOIA will show me....i guess i was hoping it would give details of at least a police dept or prison....i understand wanting to keep an individual off the record, but dont see why they would protect a prison

Edited September 10, 2016 by huggytree

[drfcolt]

yep i have a M16a2 govt marked.....there have been 14 that have come up this year.....one is mine....its minty, but questionable if truely unused.....my guess is someone shot a few mags through it....

 

mine is the lowest serial # of all of them ive seen 6,0xx,xxx while most are 6,2xx,xxxx-6,3xx,xxx....not sure if that makes it an earlier one or not.....

 

next time i go to my gun shop im grabbing my upper.....i want to verify the barrel doesnt have a date code......color is questionable...its not light grey, not black.....but i was told because its in grease still that the color will lighten..........

 

there have been 100+ A2's and NIB A1's in the past 2 years......they are all questionable...i believe mine to be real since its my most expensive gun.....but its questionable right now

 

there are M4's right now for sale....guns that could have not existed in 1986...so most likely they were damaged M16's and old serial #'s rolled onto modern guns for a replacement....if 10% of that collection are fakes/remakes it puts the whole collection in question...not sure what a FOIA will show me....i guess i was hoping it would give details of at least a police dept or prison....i understand wanting to keep an individual off the record, but dont see why they would protect a prison

 

Yea, I've always wondered about those transferable M16-A2's with A3 receiver re-enforcements.

 

A feature which did not appear until the early 2000's.