Thompson Plane

[cavediver]

I wouder what happened to the plane that was modified by Auto Ord to demonstrate the Thompson. That would be the ultimate for your collection.

What about it, does anyone have any Info?

Arthur?

[Sig]

Don't know about the Thompson plane. I am a pilot and have never caught wind of any words on this in the flight magazines after years of reading.

 

However, I do remember a very unique fairly recent demonstration by Mike Dillion. IIRC he loaded up a Swift with a couple of MG's and flew it around his property in AZ. From what I understood as long as one remained below 700' AGL, took off and landed on their own property and of course using legal MG's, no problem.

 

I can just imagine speaking to the local badges explaining your plan to do this!!! So Mike let me get this straight, you are going to fly off your own property in this Swift with a MG in each wing. Then you are going to stafe a few targets on your range, all the while keeping below 700' AGL, and then land.

Sounds just fine, can I come and watch if I bring donuts!!!!

[dalbert]

cavediver,

 

I would be surprised if the plane still exists, and even more surprised if the Thompson mountings remained on the plane very long after the photos were taken.

 

David Albert

dalbert@sturmgewehr.com

[colt21a]

mock-up model for photo's>original flew once too heavy to even fly unwieldly, and when the gun's fired they jammed the other's with the empty case's flying around all over...no brass catcher's..very flimsy craft from jenny type design..................ask any airplane guy that know's his stuff...however this is thompson board...so plane's must go someplace else on the net. maybe the "Thompson flying wing"

 

a grand idea to sweep the trenche's in a war that was over already....however they planned for the future...not realizing the next conflict would be 20 year's later...and MAN would devise new way's to fight on land, and in the air..

 

Ron

[TactAdv]

Don't know about the Tommygun plane......but just to show the idea really never died out completely, during The Great Patriotic War the Russians came up with, and actually fielded, the Tupolev Tu-2Sh which married an older small bomber airframe with **88** mounted PPSh-41 7.62mm SMG's on hanging racks in the bomb bay. This was meant to provide a carpet of fire over a scheduled area, which by all reports was devastatingly effective against open columns or trenches.

 

[/url]http://www.ppsh41.com/88ppsh.jpg

Edited February 25, 2007 by TactAdv

[nedry]

So the Russkies built the first "Spectre gunship." Very interesting...

[Norm]

Imagine having to load all of those drums! http://www.machinegunbooks.com/forums/invboard1_1_2/upload/html/emoticons/tongue.gif

[hawksnest]

Drums heck. Imagine having to clean all those guns!

[reconbob]

I believe "Puff the Magic Dragon" (3 7.62 NATO mini-guns pointed out the windows

of a DC-3) preceded the Spectre gunship. See the John Wayne

movie The Green Berets. Word was that watching Puff do fire missions at night with

tracers was sensational...

 

Bob

[kilroyjones]

Before the C-47 Spooky there was the B-25 model(?)

 

It was a modified B-25 bomber that had 6 (my mistake) forward firing .50 cals and a 75mm howitzer mounted in it's nose. Used against Jap shipping in WW2. I will try to find a link....

 

 

from wilkepedia:

 

Because of the urgent need for hard-hitting strafer aircraft, a version of the B-25 dubbed the B-25G was developed, in which the standard-length transparent nose and the bombardier were replaced by a shorter, solid nose containing two fixed .50-calibre machine guns and a 75 mm M4 cannon. The latter was the largest calibre weapon ever used in an American bomber. The cannon was manually loaded and serviced by the navigator, who was able to perform these operations without leaving his crew station just behind the pilots. This was possible due to the shorter nose of the G-model and the long length of the M4, which allowed the gun's breech to extend into the navigator's compartment. The B-25G’s successor, the B-25H, had even more firepower. The 75mm gun was the lighter T13E1 which had been designed specifically for the B-25H. It also mounted six fixed forward-firing .50-calibre machine guns, two more in the top turret, one each in a pair of new waist positions, and a final two in a new tail gunner's position. Fourteen hundred B-25Gs and B-25Hs were built. The 75mm cannon fired at a muzzle velocity of 2,362 fps, about 720 m/s.

 

The final version of the Mitchell, the B-25J, looked much like the earlier B, C and D models, having reverted to the longer nose section as used in those types. The less-than-successful, 75 mm cannon was deleted on the J model. Instead, 800 of this version were built with a solid nose containing eight .50-caliber machine guns, while other J-models featured the earlier "greenhouse" style nose containing the bombardier's position. Regardless of the nose style used, all J-models also included two .50 caliber guns in a "fuselage package" located directly under the pilot's station, and two more such guns in an identical package just under the co-pilot's compartment. The solid-nose B-25J variant carried an impressive total of 18 .50-caliber guns: eight in the nose, four in under-cockpit packages, two in an upper turret, two in the waist compartment, and a pair in the tail position. No other bomber of World War II carried as many guns. In all, 4,318 B-25Js were built.

 

 

[dalbert]

All,

 

This has turned out to be an interesting thread. The Russian photos that TactAdv posted with the PPSh SMG's are new to me.

 

The Thompson was mounted in 2 different aircraft configurations that I am aware of. The Auto-Ordnance 1923 Catalog shows 28 Thompsons mounted in a Larsen aircraft.

 

http://www.sturmgewehr.com/dalbert/Thompson%20Catalogs/1923/Airplane_Original.JPG

 

Wing mounted Thompsons were later placed on two different types of aircraft. Ron mentioned the "Jenny" style aircraft, and I believe he refers to the wing mounts. On page 49 of Tracie's book, there are 3 pictures of the double mounted Thompsons on the wing of a DH-4B. I have some of the same photos seen in the book, and the close-up of the wing mount is dated 7-7-26 on the back.

 

Switching back to the Larsen mounting of the 28 Thompson SMG's shown in the 1923 Auto-Ordnance catalog, an article by H.E. Hartney appeared in 2 different publications in November, 1921, further detailing this airborne Thompson setup. Here is what the article said in the November-December 1921 issue of Army Ordnance magazine:

 

The New Larsen All-Metal Attack Plane

 

Eminent naval strategists and tacticians admitted last summer after the bombing tests were over that they would be forced to give the airplane more consideration hereafter in all naval and war preparation. Already another phase of aviation warfare is before the public and may give the Army tactician just as rude a shock as it did the Navy, for it threatens to upset calculations and war plans on land radically. Attack aviation is that portion of military air forces that aims at ground troops and ground harassment generally. It developed during the last few months of the war, but owing to the limitations of production was used very little on either side. Ludendorff was one of its strongest advocates, but its possibilities were appreciated and an approximation thereto was attempted by our own American troops, particularly those of the first Pursuit Group. Those fliers who from low altitude bring fire to play on enemy forces either coincident with or irrespective of the infantry waves of attack, who act more or less independently of the ground troops for purposes purely offensive were classified during the last few days of the war as attack aviators and their work was deadly.

 

To be successful an attack plane must be armored, it must have great speed, it must be able to operate from a base far in the rear, it must have good climb, but, above all, it should have overwhelming power of fire. To deprive it of its armor would be certain destruction, for it must fly at extremely low altitude, not more than 400 feet; to rob it of speed or range of action would be a handicap and to take away its fire effectiveness by having only a few machine guns aboard would be to deprive it of its very function - fire power delivery. Pursuit planes of the World War would not suffice, much less would the makeshifts built up around old DH4's or Martin bombers. Something entirely new had to be brought out, and it appears that a private citizen, Mr. John M. Larsen, will be credited with the solution of a problem that for some time to the airman has seemed without solution. Certainly his product demonstrates beyond question that he is an aeronautical engineer with a keen insight into aerial tactics, for the whole layout seems calculated to fall in line with the acknowledged requirements of such a plane.

 

For the benefit of those readers who have not been fortunate enough to inspect this new machine it will suffice to state that this plane is all-metal in construction, is equipped with a Liberty 400-horsepower motor, has great range of action, speed and climb far beyond that of any machine its size existing on the front during the war, and the startling thing about it is that it has thirty Thompson Submachine Guns aboard and one man can operate them and control their fire with perfect ease.

 

Each Thompson Submachine Gun fires at a rate of 1,500 shots a minute or a fire rate of 45,000 shots a minute for the plane. These figures have never heretofore even been approached.

 

A few points about the preceding article...

 

- The 1500 RPM reference probably came from earlier Model of 1919 Thompsons, unless the Model of 1921's had some kind of special modification for aircraft use.

 

- The article references DH4 aircraft mountings attempted prior to the article, which were probably not Thompsons.

 

- The total of 30 Thompsons mentioned mounted to the Larsen is 2 more than what was shown in the 1923 Auto-Ordnance catalog. This could be an error, or perhaps 2 additional guns were mounted.

 

The Thompson aircraft mountings are of interest to me, so I thought I would post this additional material for others to see. Maybe others have more information that can be offered up on the subject.

 

David Albert

dalbert@sturmgewehr.com

[colt21a]

David great info from you as alway's on anything Thompson,and it's time for somebody like yourself to grab the Thompson reign's and take charge. it is pleasant time to read what you post,

 

and info that you present to this board.

 

good luck in future "quest's"

 

from A tired old dog. R.Ron

[TAS1921AC]

Page 76 of TGTMTTR:

"The plane used was Larsen's newly developed JL-12, a two-man, all metal, low wing, open-cockpit attack plane powered by a single 400 horsepower Liberty engine. It's gun arrangement consisted of twenty-eight Thompsons with hundred-round drums mounted in its belly - twelve pointed slightly forward, six directly downward, and ten inclined slightly to the rear - plus two guns mounted on swivels for the pilot and copilot."

[amafrank]

You guys might also note the german MG81 gun pod used during a short period in WWII. It had 4 MG81Z machineguns each of which is a twin for a total of 8 barrels firing 1500-1800 rpm. Quite a heavy saturation with this unit. The pods were carried by Ju-88's and those types. These are 8mm rifle cal guns and a bit more powerful than the PPSh though a similar concept.....

 

Frank