sevengunner

Balder, Can you post a ... larger picture ... with more of a close-up on the markings? I know the big pics have inflamed some, but it is hard to see the details on the smaller, thumbnail type photos. Also, a left side shot of the comp and sight blade would help me better determine what you have. I can just barely make out a diamond shape on your comp. The 2nd generation compensators have the word "Cutts" inside a diamond logo just ahead of the ports, and the patent and patent date information parallel to the ports but scrolling up the left side and over the front of the comp. From the top view, it appears that your sight blade is the 2nd gen type, that comes to a point; however, it is hard to know for certain without having a side view. Sven P.S. Thanks for clarifying the BPC vs. lend-lease status of your gun!

Balder, I, for one, appreciate very much your clearly focussed and highly detailed pictures. They did not seem overly large or cumbersome to me. I have several different types of connections to the web, and did not have any significant delays on your images downloading to my browser on any of them -- even on a very slow 28 Kbps dial-up connection. By the way, do you have the 2nd generation compensator (with the pointy front sight blade), or the 3rd / 4th generation type (with the flat top on the sight blade), on your lend-lease savage? I'm trying to determine is there is any pattern, in the serial numbers, to how the sight blades were transitioned on the early Savage guns. This last week, I examined several early Savage Thompsons that actually had the flat-top blade on a 2nd gen compensator. These were refinished, so I couldn't tell if the blades were interchanged by the factory or by a more recent modification. Thanks, Sven

Second Amendment, Thanks, man! I scanned the digital menu and couldn't find the macro you describe. Then I noticed a 4-way manual toggle that had a tulip printed on the 3 o'clock position. I poked it, but it did not seem to illicit any changes to the focus. Shoot, I'll have to read the manual ... Sven

Check it out ... the fellow firing into the bunker and the Chinese gun both have the early, shark's tooth profile on the front sight. Thought that was pretty rare to find on a war-time tommy gun. Anyone know a source for comps, pins, and front sight blades for the early models (first and second generation)? Sven P.S. Had a girlfriend long ago that tried to teach me Chinese. I recognize only a handful of characters from the manual ... person, wood, large, small, ten, one, knife, down, and 'beautiful country' (USA).

Dean, Personally, I wouldn't sell either one to get the other. The MP5 and M1 both have their unique niches to fill in a gun collection. As long as the barrel and receiver metal isn't pitted with red rust; parts aren't broken (e.g. separated grip mount or loose barrel); and some goon hasn't slipped while using a screwdriver to pry out the ejector to put a giant gouge down one side of the receiver; then $18k is really not an unreasonable price for a U.S. Property marked M1. Dennis Todd had a minty, REPARKERIZED, U.S. Property marked, AO/Brideport, M1A1, with matching ser. numbers on his table for $21,000 earlier this year. Thing sold in less than one day. Don't know what people think about Dennis' prices, but I don't thing he comes across as a greedy or unreasonable seller. Sven

Balder, I tried to get some pics of the rollmarks on S-18XXX. They are at the links below: http://images6.theimagehosting.com/Dsc05172.jpg http://images6.theimagehosting.com/Dsc05168.jpg http://images6.theimagehosting.com/Dsc05174.jpg Unfortunately, only the first one is sharp. I thought I had a good digital camera (Sony), but it can't get the focus on close-up shots like yours can. I probably need better lighting (e.g. direct sunlight). The rollmarks with the model and serial number are clean with no inclusions. The rollmarks with the "calibre" show the occasional inclusion. The patent dates have the most inclusions. The military era TSMGs really do have some of the most interesting history and variations -- often it seems that the only thing that distinguishes a Savage Commercial from a Lend-Lease is the presence of additional proofs on the latter. I join in your musing: "If only these guns could talk!" Do you know how yours migrated from the Norwegian military into civilian circulation? If I understand correctly, the Commercial Savages (such as Bug's and S-18XXX) were pulled from war-time production to fulfill police orders and therefore never made it to actual military inspection or service. It seems that the vast majority of tommy guns that passed through U.S. military arsenals were reparkerized. The cool thing about yours is in its being both a military issue and having the original finish. Another amazing thing about this collector's thread is the exchanges that takes place here but from thousands of miles apart! Sven

QUOTE And no the gun was never owned by J Curtis Earl! I know it wasn't. Earl woulda' put on an aftermarket gold plating with a fantastic tale to go with http://www.machinegunbooks.com/forums/invboard1_1_2/upload/html/emoticons/smile.gif

QUOTE We finally had some sunshine here in this country, enabling me to take some better close-ups. Balder, Are you not in the U.S.? I am glad we've had this chance to dialog and exchange observations on this most unusual phenomenon. Coin collectors apply extra premium to double strikes, off-strikes, and unusual markings resulting from broken or worn dies on government issue coinage. I wonder if the same interest can be stirred up among Tommy Gun collectors for these eccentric markings. This is fascinating. Commercial Savage 1928s are already quite rare - maybe only a couple hundred at most in the U.S. as registered transferables. This subset with the strike inclusions must be exceedingly rare. I will try to get some pics of S-18XXX tonight and post them, so we can compare the nuances of the roll marks. Your patent dates are much "cleaner" than those on S-18XXX, which has the greatest concentration of its inclusions in that area. The curious thing is that I looked closely at the patent dates on S-18XXX and didn't even notice the interruptions for at least 10-15 minutes on the initial inspection. It is as if my mind completed the gapped areas for me, making them "invisible" to my perception for a short while. Your pics are fantastic - I am amazed at the clear focus you can get so close to the surface. Sven

Philasteen, Noticed that your 1927 has a front sight blade config from the war time tommy guns with the broad flat on top. What happened? Sven

Balder, It looks that your S-245XX, the S-18XXX, and Bug's S-16XXX all actually have the identical variations in stamping depth & thickness on the same characters in the same positions, with the exception that the letters on Bug's gun do not have the inclusions. Perhaps this suggests the same roller die doing the markings for each, just wearing out with the advancing serial numbers? Or maybe a similar process for producing and rolling the dies? Sven

Arthur, Thanks for your expert opinion. Have you ever seen imperfections or inclusions in the lettering on Colt Thompsons from worn dies? Sven

Bug - Nice pics! Nice gun! The S-18XXX actually had the same, finely matted, bluish-gray color as your receiver. Also, the markings are identical to yours, except with the wierd "inclusions." Bolded below to show were the impressions are thicker and deeper. MODEL OF 1928 NO. S- 18XXX AUTO-ORDNANCE CORPORATION. Completely pristine finish. No PD markings. Bug, can you post some pics of the compensator with front sight blade, and finned barrel from your Commercial Savage? If Savage started the 1928s at around 15k, then 18k would be only 3k into production. Balder's 24.5k would be 6.5k past that milestone. Maybe the roller dies averaged 5k guns before wearing out? Maybe there were more than 1 set of roller dies for a production run? Anyone else got serial numbers and filled-in roll marks on their Savage made Tommy Gun? Sven

Hello Balder - I thank you very much for your excellent pictures. That is exactly the phenomenon I observed! The Savage S-18XXX I observed last night had the same pattern, the digits '2' and '4' and the letters 'M' and 'A' were subject to the most hits, in regard to becoming partly filled-in / obscured. The condition, as you have pictured, where metal displaces from one character / digit and pushes into another ajoining character / digit was also present. By 18,000, the roller die must have been reaching the end of its usable life. I don't know where Savage started their ser. numbers, but it might shed some clues on how long the roller dies would last. GEG apparently wasn't bothered by it, as he still applied his approval stamp. http://www.machinegunbooks.com/forums/invboard1_1_2/upload/html/emoticons/smile.gif SN 18,000 and 24,500 are probably only a couple months of production apart. Yours is now only the 2nd I've seen. There must be many more out there like these - though I have never seen one in maybe hundreds of Tommy Guns I have run in to over 20+ previous years of gun shows, museum trips, shoots and collector-2-collector show & tell. If you guys who have seen or owned these are reading, please sound off! Thanks, Balder, for being the Sherlock Holmes & Scotland Yard of this thread! You da' man. Sven

Thanks, Mike. My first thought was: reweld. However, an inspection turned up no such evidence. Usually there's discoloration, porosity or uneveness of some kind that would indicate reweld. Also, there is no way that restored lettering could look like this. The depth of the rollmarks match the patterns on similar guns pictured in Frank's books. They look identical to factory markings on other Savage guns, only with the peculiar, and very tiny, filled-in areas. Very strange. I have never seen anything like it. There's a lot of oddball stuff out there. I'll try to get some close-up snapshots. I don't know if the owner will be willing to showcase a potential "problem" on a gun he is trying to sell. Sven

Last night I looked at an interesting Thompson. Savage made. Has New York address, and patent dates (vs. numbers). No Brit proofs or US ordnance proofs. One thing caught my attention though as different. The roll marks (?) had a lot of blank spots interrupting the characters. The spots are tiny. The blank spots are perfectly flush with the surface and looks like the dies might have had minute pieces broken off on parts of the lettering. Here's the wierd thing. Some of the blank spots look like they have been pushed in from the surrounding metal to crowd out a part of the lettering - but there is not any impact dent in the surrounding metal. About 3 blanks spots on the New York address, consistently on the 'Ns'. A whole bunch of them on the numbers in the patent dates, particularly on the '4s' and "2s." Several on the other side on the "Ms" in THOMPSON SUBMACHINE GUN, and in the "A" in CALIBRE. The metal does not look refinished in any way. Definitely not ground down or faded out from sandblast because even the letters with the blank spots are otherwise stamped in pretty deep and sharp. The spots are way too small and random to be a result of rewelding. Gun is in the S-18XXX range, which is kind of low. I've never seen anything like this before. Anyone out there who lots of experience with the Savage guns who can comment on this? Ron? Arthur? PK? Other Tommy Gun gurus and experts?

TNKen, Compared to other hand-marked PD guns I've seen, the engraving on yours is quite uniform ... and the exposed metal hasn't "browned" over. Is my perception of the picture distorted, or does it appear that the PD has incorrectly spelled "MOBILE" as "MOBILL", and incorrectly identified the model as "M1" in the engraving? Sven

Well Hugh, I don't think you can ever know for certain what the BATFE is going to decide and when. My guess is that if they've gone through the trouble to recind their earlier opinion, then they will render final the decision to NOT grant C&R status for all WH TSMGs. Their reasoning would most likely be one of "not disturbing the sleeping giant" ... in other words, that if a case could be made to C&R all transferable WH Thompsons, that this would establish legal precendence for all transferable machine guns to become C&R. Only a guess -- anything can happen. If it were my non-SOT transfer, however, I wouldn't hold my breath waiting for a favorable judgement. I prefer to keep my transfers moving. In my experience, going into holding pattern on the applications for transfer is a prescription for more heartburn. I do hope, however, that my speculative forecast will be proven wrong and that the TCA will prevail in their appeal. Sven

How do they say? "He who dies with the most toys wins." http://www.machinegunbooks.com/forums/invboard1_1_2/upload/html/emoticons/smile.gif Sven

azboater, I too am personally annoyed with the POR advertisements. It makes the prospective buyer feel self-conscious about asking a simple and necessary question to the seller on the item's price. But, over the decades, I've learned to develop a thicker skin in order to find the deals that are right for me. If a seller posts "POR" and you are interested in the item, then you should not hesitate to send a direct, one-line, e-mail inquiry such as: "What is the price on the AOC / Savage 1928A1 you have posted for sale on XXX?" Any seller that isn't willing to entertain such an inquiry is a poseur, self-righteous idiot or both - and certainly not worth your time regardless of your experience as a buyer. The only "tube gun" - where a tube shaped piece of steel is the registered receiver (RR) - that I know if which could be remotely addressed as having the pattern of a Thompson submachine gun would be the BRP Corp. STG Thompson M1A adapter kit that uses a Stemple RR tube: http://www.brpguns.com/stgthompson.htm Sven

Chromebolt - With real estate, value and appreciation potential are always closely tied to location. For TSMGs, value and appreciation potential seem to be coupled with provenance. An "original" TSMG will always have much more time behind it, and therefore an advantage on having more history associated with it, than a more contemporary WH model. Buy the best gun your money can buy. So, in whatever class of Thompsons you invest in, try to get the "best in class." For instance, if you're looking at WWII era TSMGs of Savage manufacture, go for a Savage Commercial 1928. This is not to piss on the WH TSMG. Its recent track record on collector's interest and appreciation has been impressive. But, not all WH guns are equal. Some are C&R, some are not. Some have all USGI internals, some do not. Some have been tuned by PK, some have not. I'm not a big fan of commemorative guns, but of all the WH commemorative TSMGs, I find the WWII model to be the most interesting. Unfortunately, the ones that are currently available are selling for close to $20K. For only 20% more, there are some really interesting "original" WWII era TSMGs to be had. Sven

TNKen is right. If the receiver on your gun is indeed marked "M1" and "Bridgeport," then the finned barrel, compensator, and Lyman rear sight are all not correct. As long as the headspace is within spec, there should not be any problems shooting modern .45 ACP ammo of UMC or AE manufacture from any vintage Thompson. Sven

Then I saw Bo Jackson pound a baseball 350 feet into the windshield of a heckler, who was hollering the most vile racial insults, during practice at a visiting ball field. This was during Jackson's school days. His two previous attempts bounced off the hood and the top of the car. These hits coming off of fast pitches. Just cuz Bo could wield a wood bat with the precision of a grenade launcher doesn't mean I can or you can or anybody in the next three states can. For us regular joes, an aluminum bat and a slow pitch softball is a better choice of "club" for reaching past the fence. http://www.machinegunbooks.com/forums/invboard1_1_2/upload/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif Sven

If you really want to have fun with the folks who don't read this board: emboss WWII military proof marks on the grip ... 'E' for Enfield or something Australian ... Sven

Kroil before! Carbon Cutter after! ... and watch for brass bouncing into your position from shooters in the other lanes. Once saw a Colt 1921 owner lay his gun down on a foam pad to go fiddle with something away from the firing line. Guy next door in camo, web gear and jack boots was blasting away with a post sample MP5/40. Dang thing was bouncing brass all over the place. Some ricocheting off the lane dividers, and apparently some going over the top and coming down hard onto the Colt. It put more than a few dings and scratches into the bluing. Almost couldn't bear to see the owner's reaction. Sven

QUOTE Pricision shooting, with a snubby beyond 15 yds.? Who needs to do that? My CCW is a S&W mod 60 snubby. If I'm more than 15 yds away in a situation I need a gun for, I'd rather think about a way to escape the situation than think about pricision shooting. Agreed. My point is that a snubby is a last ditch, backup weapon for reacting to an up-close, and literally "in-your-face" attack. Nothing more, and maybe a whole lot less once you factor in the inferior ballistics. Sven