sevengunner

Why not have some fun with this? Change your ad to: Thompsen eL-Drums, 50-round Crossbee Manufacture Otto-Ordnance Corporation Send them a list of names and addresses copied out of a city phone book. Make a bunch of mag bodies out of cardboard and send to them. Sven

Reconbob - No. Not permitted. On transferable machineguns, only the original manufacturer can replace the damaged receiver with another. Sven

Sheds1, Are you certain the plate is chrome, versus nickel? Chemical etch can strip off nickel. Not sure about chrome. Sven

QUOTE can tell you for sure that the recoil spring guide doesn't have a hole in it. What a total PITA to reassemble! As far as the comp is concerned, I can tell you that it has the diamond-shaped Cutts logo, not the bullet-shaped Thompson logo, but I have no idea on the shape of the sight itself. The one photo I have of it isn't one of the better ones. Also I never looked inside the chamber and don't recall the shade of blue on the buttplate. I'll have the owner bring the gun back for more photos. Thanks, DINK. The sight blade should have a pyramid profile, to be correct. I'll e-mail you for additional picture requests. Regards, Sven

QUOTE Can you point me towards the documentation or source on the Commercial Savages being released from the factory with recoil pilot rods not having a hole in them? Just curious how that info came to light. Maybe it's in one of the reference text books on Tommy guns. Many thanks! 10/1971-- There's no specific documentation. To date, I have examined 6 Commercial Savages that appear all original, and they all have the older version guide rods without the hole. Best Regards, Sven

DINK, Please do NOT scrub with a nylon brush. Depending on what chemical you scrub with, you could end up putting a slight polish to the finish. You're best served to just leaving the gun alone and sell it "as-is." Another picture is needed to establish that your gun is 100% Savage Commercial Model of 1928. The compensator should be a 2nd generation with the high, peaked blade. Also, while your gun appears to have original finish, another set of pics could corroborate this. What are the areas on the interior and exterior of your gun that are left as bare, unfinished metal? When you peek inside the chamber, is it blued, or is it bare "white" metal? The original Savage Commercial guns were released from the factory with recoil spring guides without the hole. Additionally, how is the "S" on your actuator and recoil spring guide -- round 'S' or squared off kind of like this '5' (Chicopee Falls)? Additionally, the buttplate on the stock should be a true "blue" (as in Colt blue) versus a dull parkerize. Please post some more pics and an e-mail address. I may make you an offer. Regards, Sven

QUOTE So the comment by Sven who believes that a price less than 10k would be appropriate for one of the Thompson is entirely, in my opinion, unrealistic. An uncut world war II gun, even without the markings, would sell for less than a Westy? I don't think so. I should clarify my comments. Considering all the work that needs to go into the #2 gun to "make it right", I personally would feel zero motivation to buy it unless it had an extremely low price -- such as less than $10,000. Others are entitled to a different opinion. You really have to wonder why so much was done to alter the original weapon. Who knows what unexpected "surprises" are obfuscated by all that excessive polishing and re-work. I've seen this gun posted somewhere else for sale, and with a totally unbelievable story describing it as some kind of "special forces" expediency. The bogus history I saw posted and the completely wierd configuration makes this to be risky acquisition that, in my opinion, would only be offset by an extremely low selling price. Sven

For me, #1 would be the obvious choice if I were in your shoes. The pistol grip, however, needs to be replaced with one correct for the period - the one on it now looks like the type put on late model WH Thompsons after their supply of WW II parts ran out. I think the $17k price is very reasonable. I can barely look at #2 without cringing. I suppose if you could get it for less than $10k, it would be worth a trip to Orion for engraving with repro marking, followed by a refinish in matte blue, and then re-furbished with repro wood. Sven

UHC = Union Hardware Company BRW = Borg Warner KMTM = Killeen Machine & Tool OM = Olin Matheson W = Winchester HR = Harrington & Richardson

adlake, There's no reason why the home refinisher can't use what professional refinishers use. Depending on available space, the only difference need be the scale of your setup - e.g. size and number of tanks. Dulite and Oxynate are the most widely used hot-blue solutions. Modern Dulite uses a different chemical formula than the original "recipe" from 50-60 years ago which employed cyanide. Metal prep is key to good results. Best I've experienced is a mild acid solution that dissolves finish but doesn't etch the metal. Good neutralization of the metal several microns into the surface is important ... for instance, phosphoric acid is great for cleaning off old blue, but it penetrates deep into the metal and forms an oxidation layer that can wreak havoc with your attempts to re-blue. Hardened steels and steels with high silica content can develop bizarre coloration, and requires experience to know how to stabilize to a uniform finish. Rust blue requires a humidity cabinet and lots of vigilance. The trick is to card the finish on each iteration before the rust "goes too far." The bore needs to be protected throughout the process. Plugs often pop out. The pros use varnish to coat the bore ... as you can imagine, it can be bear to get all the varnish out when done. In my experience, parkerizing (which is a form of phosphating) doesn't form well on smooth surfaces but is less sensitive to (though not immune to) discoloration from specially treated steels. There's a lot of excellent refinishers out there, with lots of experience, large setups that absorb small imbalances that would crash a smaller operation, and quick turnaround. For me, its much more cost and time effective to send work out for bluing or phosphating after prepping and sealing the metal surface. Sven

Re-barreled? Barrel fins look squared off like WWII production, versus the more rounded profile that is correct for the Colt Tommy Guns. Sven

Hello All -- I'm seeking to buy some small 1928 TSMG parts in original finish, like new condition: Grip Screw for rear grip Plunger for Lyman ladder (rear) sight 2nd Generation Cutts Comp with front sight blade and cross pin These are for an early war-time Tommy Gun. Let me know if you have any of these parts you can "part" with, and how much you want for 'em. Thanks, Sven

Jigga, Isn't the Middlesboro TSMG your auction? http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem....p?Item=53203565 The barrel in the Pic #2 (at the link) looks like war-time production? Sven

OldFALGuy, Embellished or not, who takes the seller's description without a grain of salt? Pics and price speak the louder. Personal inspection and test fire speak the loudest. http://www.machinegunbooks.com/forums/invboard1_1_2/upload/html/emoticons/smile.gif Sven

GI Jive, I agree that the Savage factory records are impossible to acquire. Factory records also don't tell much other than original config and manufacture date. My suggestion to Bob is to file a FOIA request with the BATFE for the redacted trail of registration / ownership. Sven

Tom, Not only are the kits legit, but they can often be had for less than $800. Saw some Savage 1928 kits for only $650 at a gun show today. Sven

Bob, Factory records will tell you original configuration and date of manufacture. Much of the story of your gun is in how it was owned and used after production. A FOIA request to the BATFE, for the [redacted] NFRTR records might provide valuable and entertaining insights. Sven

Mike, Whew ... 2 years. Did you receive this transfer via a C&R license? The inlay on the buttstock is a repair that the British armorers typically put in to fill the gap after moving the sling swivel to the top of the stock. The corrogated shims are a creative way to reinforce cracks in the wood - they are well done and shaped to follow the contours of the stock / grip. Congrats on your new tommy gun!! Sven

Balder, Thank you for the links! I hope this thread has added another fascinating chapter to the saga of the WWII Savage Thompson already unfolded on these boards. Gents, It's been a great thread! Thanks, Sven

That thing is one oddball mamma. Smooth barrels existed on wartime 1928s, but were fitted with comps. Bad news: ODS9091 called it right. The barrel installed is for an M1. Good news: You could remove a barrel (finned or not) with comp assy off one of those war-time 1928 parts kits from R-Guns, etc. and restore the gun to a mainstream configuration correct for the 1928.

Balder, Once again, I must commend you on your fabulous photography! Also, your pictures shed more light on another suspicion I've had for some time about the presence of "transition model" compensators with mixed features from different generations. Your front sight blade is the 3rd generation type (with the flat top, and which is common to war-time Thompsons) but installed on a 2nd generation comp (which is more common to pre-war Thompsons). It does not appear that your sight blade has been replaced. I have encountered a number of early, Savage 1928s with precisely this same phenomenon, but because they were refinished, it was next to impossible to determine if the front sight blade had been replaced at a later time (e.g. through depot level maintenance and repair, etc.). Documents by Frank Iannamico, Roger Cox and Tracy Hill all show four to five distinct generations of compensator assemby for the Thompson. However, the accumulating evidence is suggesting that there are most definitely "transition model" compensator assemblies, with inter-generational features on the comp vs. sight blade, that were issued by Savage on their early guns. The comp+blade assembly on S-18XXX is identical to yours. S-18XXX also appears to have all-original parts and finish, and even shares the same condition of having "inclusions" in the receiver roll marks. An interesting "variation" on the story of the Savage Thompson is unfolding. Now, if Bug will post pics of the comp on his S-16XXX Savage "Commercial," with its confirmed provenance as a police gun, maybe we can attain some triangulation on this. Your interesting, original Thompson and your superb photos of it are becoming a validation "baseline!" Sven

GI Jive, Okay, okay ... no flame. NO FLAME! Chill, brother. Thanks for the pointers. Always good to get tips from a pro. However, to be honest: it really didn't bother or inconvenience me to scroll the wide pic. Peace, Sven

Balder, I'm a parts gun: Swedish, Norwegian, Finnish and German, with other nationalities mixed in! http://www.machinegunbooks.com/forums/invboard1_1_2/upload/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif The 2nd generation comp is mainstream for the Colt 1928. They also appeared, but in limited numbers, on early Savage Thompsons. Have a good evening! Sven

Balder, Oh yeah! The bigger pic confirms it. The markings on yours are correct for a 2nd generation compensator. However, I cannot say for sure if your sight blade is 2nd gen without a side view -- from the top view, it is hard to ascertain whether it ramps to a "point" or a "flat." By the way, that patina is fantastic. You can almost feel the history in it. Sven

Dean, The "U.S. Property" markings are positioned differently for the Savage and AO/Bridgeport guns. They are a nifty reminder of the guns' GI provenance, which certain collectors will always pay a premium for. However, the folks that know the history and base their interests on it know that the "U.S. Property" markings were applied mostly to guns intended for lend-lease [to other countries], and that the M1A1s issues to the U.S. troops were largely devoid of them. So, my answer to your question is that there are some who would pay more for a "U.S. Property" marked gun. However, to others it would not make any difference in the value. Sven