billatlanta

1-11-07 News Release. New skewed facts they pick and choose for Anti-gunners. Read this, it'll make your blood boil. Link: http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/guns_murders_dc Yeah, probably more firearm homicides in L.A., N.Y., New Orleans, Miami than Utah, Kansas, etc. They fail to mention anyone defending themselves, nor no legally owned machine guns used. Notice how they say : "Our findings suggest that in the United States, household firearms may be an important source of guns used to kill children, women and men, both on the street and in their homes," said Matthew Miller, assistant professor of health policy and injury prevention, who led the study. Mr. Miller (Ass Professor) likes to start out "kill children, women bla, bla." Wonder why he didn't drop the lines "semi-automatic firearms, high capacity magazines, and cop killer bullets-- those are always attention getters. Just more fuel for the gennerally ignorant population. Hope this doesn't ruin your nice day. Bill

I saw an ad in Jan 01 Shot Gun News from Sarco that said they were getting the A.O 100 round drum in late Dec after waiting 2 years for developement. Cost: $599. I think I recall some posts about waiting for them to come out so I thought I'd post what they say at this time. I called and talked to "Dave" (MG guy) and he stated that they are now due in in FEBUARY. He said they have 10 coming, 7 of which are prepaid, you could put up a credit card which would not be run until shipped. I didn't ask if they were going to guarantee to function as I assume they would say that they're warrantied by the manufacturer. I'm not sure if this is any news-- but I just thought I'd post my findings. Bill

Mike, Paypal sent, address included. Thanks for the project. Bill

Yeah, maybe tough range for a heavy duty "Machine Pistol" but it got it done. M3's one of my favorites, that's why I often carry it behind the pass seat (buckets) in my truck, with the flash hider installed, I figure it looks goofy enough to ward off any evil spirits that may aproach. Since mags are cheap I carry an additional six pack. Since it is cumbersome to wield in such a small area, I have a S&W 4" model 500 .50Cal Maginum stuck between the seat and console----but the percussion of that sucker going off inside a vehicle without ear muffs---- would have your brains leaking out. Therefore, I also carry a more modest snub nose .44 Mag under the seat. I've noticed that in recent years spare parts have really dried up. I probably won't need them, but like to have them, so I ordered some of everything that Numeric Arms had in stock. Anybody know who mave have some spares? Does Ohio Ordinence still have any? That's where I got my Guide Lamp C&R about 15~20 years ago. Sarco would be my last choice, and only if not available elsewhere. I've noticed it's real quiet here so I thought I'd put my $.03 worth in (adjusted for inflation.) Trimming down my collection a little, but I LOVE my grease gun-- so it's not going anywhere. Bill

Mike, I'd be happy to help if I can. We still have a good camera set up to to shoot guns (currently .50 M2HB & MP5) and could do one on a Thompson as you need. When you say " for a banner for shows" I'm not sure exactly what you have in mind. Cloth? Vinyl ? and what size approx.? Consider that they can take any actual photo and make it into an "iron on" very large actual blowup, and as long as a tractor trailer. Kinko's and advertising companies specialize in this kind of stuff and it's routine for them. You could have a Thompson & M16 with your name between or under. Cost may be cheaper than you'd think, and it would be an investment, roll it up and use year after year. Possibly PhilOhio couuld help with that photoshop majic. Closest I have to an M16 is a couple Ar15 #6920's M4's that I picked up as an investment, rumour has it Colt will be moving production to Canada-- hence N/L/A import to USA. That would have to be impresive to have a high res actual color blow up of a Tommy like 4 foot. Let me know if I can help. Bill

evil_kot Re: your statement: QUOTE My friend has tons of them cheap… Sounds like a good deal for sure---- I'll take a quarter ton at a couple hundred each !!! (Payable when I pick them up in the USA, I can provide a bank letter of credit to ship, cash or certified on delivery.) He wouldn't by chance want someone to wire transfer funds to Russia in advance would he ? It might be possible to import high cap mags again, if he gets serious about getting them over I can check to make sure it's Ok. Keep us posted.

Guys, No urban rumor here, I only stated what was told to me by a known reliable source, with no reason to state other than the truth. As I started the second sentence: " I personally knew a gentleman in Atlanta----- " I knew him because he overhauled transmissions for me, a couple a month. He was an automobile trade school instructor specializing in automatic transmissions, he did them for me in his garage in his spare time. I had made the aquaintence of his oldest son "Bobby." Bobby asked if we needed any part time help, we tried him out for a while, and after he graduated high school we put him on full time. He worked for me full time for about a year and a half, after which he became a security guard at an auto dealership so he could further his education during the day. If I try to piece the time line together, it had to be in the mid 80's because we moved into a new warehouse about 87 and he only worked in the former location. I do not recall exactly when I knew his father passed away. At a point in time, after he left my employment, maybe a year or even two, I saw him at the dealership, we talked for a while, and at this time he told me about his younger brother being arrested. At that time I told him that I didn't think much would come of it, and they would probably not pursue the case. At another point in time, maybe a year, I saw him again at the dealership, and he relayed to me the outcome that I stated, I was totally shocked. One factor that I didn't mention in the post was that the family was poor, and had no resources, I'm guessing that his mother may have needed to sell their home after his father passing, and he might have had a public defender. The pawn shop was in a poor section of town next to Atlanta, not a class 3 dealer, may have suspected it was stolen from the government, FBI HQ about 3 miles away, agent stopped in talked to him, and left. So-- although the info was "second hand" he certainly was close enough to know what happened, and he would have no reason to alter the circumstances as he described. I have tracked some of the transcripts of gun suits on the net, but am not sure if this would show. Bill

QUOTE By any chance, was the dread "Linda" 9mm carbine or pistol designed by Mr. Farmer and named for his wife? Phil, Interesting-- but I don't think so, often their conversions had "Hard Times Armory" on them. I'll see her later this month, and I'll be sure to ask her, she probably knows the story behind it. In her book, she will be trying to write it not specifically for the gun enthusiast but for the general public. All the behind the scenes stuff about guns, gun business, a woman's perspective, female machine gun dealer, some of the legal battles, gun ownership, personal defense. As she says: "The kind of book a gun enthusiast would buy to give to his wife." Like some of the behind the scenes stuff on her exchanges with Sarah Brady, Chuck Schumer, etc. Like how she got started: J.D. was a gunsmith at "MAC", she was a secretary at another company, Mr. Daniel asked them if they wanted to go to a gun show on the weekend, he would give them $100, and $50 commission on every gun they sold. They took a couple semi's and a couple full autos. (I'll have to ask her the year.) Back then semis were like $229. and full autos like $$349. People were queing in line with their cash out, she spent the entire day writing orders, and the rest of the week shipping. She had so much cash, her and J.D. bought 2 boxes of .45's, loaded the display MAC 10's when they left. Another story in 1986, they had 30 days before the ban took effect, everyone scrambled and sent them semis to register and convert before the deadline. ( I purchased a HK94 and IMI Uzi and rushed to them.) They had a tremendious amount registered. Two ATF agents later came out to see them and told her "they hadn't manufactured the guns !) She proceeded to show them piles of parts, some junk, had them confused because they didn't even know what they were. She told them all the parts were converted and present, therefore all were complete-- just needed assembled. She asked them to show her which parts made the guns fire in auto, of course they had no idea. They left with their tails between their legs and they never heard back from them. Should be a lot of other general interest stories as well to make a good read for everyone. I've volunteered to help photo some interesting stuff she has. She should be scheduling talks at gun rights group meetings this year, when I know them I'll post some. Bill

Roland, Advise them to be very carefull--they're treading on very thin ice !!! I personally knew a gentleman in Atlanta who was a WW11 vet, he brought back his Grease Gun, and hid it in his closet. He obviously did not know of the 1968 Aministy. Shortley after his death, his 18 year old son (honor roll student) came across his gun, knew nothing about it and thought he would see what it was worth. He had no idea what kind of gun it was (machine gun.) He took it to a pawn shop, showed it to the guy, who responded that he needed to call a friend who was looking for a gun like that. Pawn shop owner called the police and FBI, who were there within 5 minutes. He was immediatly arrested and jailed, after a couple weeks his mother hired an attorney and put her house up for bail, $100,000.00 He was charged with "posession" of an unregistered NFA gun in Federal court, pretty well an open and shut case, they had the security camera shots, police and FBI witnesses, and he told his full true story to the ATF agent. Think they gave him a walk, or cut him any slack ? WRONG !! His attorney advised the best he could do would be to plea bargain, as knowledge and intent were irrelevent to simple "posession." He accepted a 10 year suspended sentence, to serve 7 years probation, time served, $100,000.00 fine plus court costs, and some community service cleaning the Federal court, and add in the attorneys fees, to be paid before the 7 years, on a timely basis. Needless to say the kid didn't go to college as planned, worked hard in menial jobs the next 10 years. These are the cases the ATF and authorities LOVE, easy ones, nice open and shut, prima facia, they don't even have to work hard. Excercise caution, but check with "full auto 45" maybe he knows a way to check them out. Bill

Further this subject: I just thought ya'all might want to know the following: Some of you may (or may not) know that J.D. FARMER, of HARD TIMES ARMORY, Smyrna Georgia, passed away about 5 or 6 years ago after a long illness. If you didn't know "J.D." some of his achievements were: Gunsmith at SWD /Cobray Mac machine guns, Atlanta, and was instrumental in tuning the MAC 10, and working on the (then) new MAC 11/9 getting it's reliability from 25% to 99+%. (Also of note is Mr. Wayne Daniel, owner of SWD, spent Millions of dollars fighting ATF rulings regarding full autos.) J.D. Farmer and his wife Linda then started H.T.A., and was recognised for his full auto conversions, many copied his developements. In the 70's and 80's there were not a lot of registered autos, few conversions, J.D. and Linda were pioneers. Of significance was in 1986 after the NFA ban, J.D. and Linda converted a mg AFTER the law was passed, submitted the paperwork, thereby challanged the law. They WON in the first federal court, it was apealed by the ATF and overturned, J.D. and Linda apealed to the Supreme Court, who didn't hear it -- thereby uholding the apeal-- so they lost. It cost them a lot of time and money-- they tried. J.D. was the quiet guy in the background, Linda was the out front in your face "machine gun mouth," she spoke at a lot of NRA meetings, was Pres. of several gun rights groups, testified before congress, Supreme Court, Etc. Linda was Sarah Brady's worst nightmare, and was continueously in Wayne LaPiere's face about machine guns. At one NRA convention where she spoke, she asked for a show of hands of those who thought that it was legal for an individual to own a machine gun. Result--- only 25% of the members knew that it was legal for an individual to own a machine gun !! She faulted the NRA for keeping this info quiet, and they subsequently did a few articles on full autos. Linda Farmer was probably the most outspoken person for full autos and among the top for gun rights. After one meeting with a bunch of the "big wigs" they went to a range and they asked her if she wanted to shoot a Thompson-- she pointed it and from her hip ran a 30 rounder all into the center of the target (she says by pure luck.) All she could hear was them all saying "from the hip. too" and no one wanted to pick up the gun after that. Fast forward to 2007, Linda has been getting her life together, and becoming more active lately, and is hoping to travel to many of these gun rights affairs and be a consultant regarding full auto issues. Little known is that she has been writing a book about her life in the firearms business, being a woman mg dealer, and many gun related things of general interest to the general public as well. So-- from my good friend of a couple decades "You ain't heard the last from Linda Farmer yet !!! " Which is great, because she has maybe been the most outspoken person on NFA gun issues. Three cheers for Linda Farmer http://www.machinegunbooks.com/forums/invboard1_1_2/upload/html/emoticons/woot.gif http://www.machinegunbooks.com/forums/invboard1_1_2/upload/html/emoticons/woot.gif http://www.machinegunbooks.com/forums/invboard1_1_2/upload/html/emoticons/woot.gif and best wishes in her future endeavors. Bill

I thought you might like to see the latest knox report, Shotgun News 12-19-06 reprinted with permission. Has a lot to specifically deal with machine guns. More on NRA Positions By Jeff Knox (Manassas, VA, December 19, 2006) NRA is catching flak from readers of The Knox Report over our disclosure of their candidate survey. Recently we reported that one question on the survey stated that NRA was not opposed to expanding "Instant Checks" to include private transactions between individuals at gun shows. A reader who contacted NRA reported that NRA's response was to claim that I had simply made the whole thing up. To avoid any confusion we have posted copies of the surveys on our web site at www.NealKnox.com. These copies came from Senator George Allen and Senator-Elect Jim Webb, both of Virginia. On Questions 6, 9, and 15 of the Virginia Senate survey, NRA not only accepts, but endorses violations of its own principles. In the candidate survey NRA endorses expansion of the Instant-Check to include private transfers at gun shows, and endorses the 1986 machine gun ban. The gun show question was Number 6 on the 2006 surveys but gun shows were not the only troubling information in the questionnaires. Question Number 9 dealt with gun bans and read as follows: 9. The NRA opposes gun bans as a violation of both the Second Amendment and common sense. (However, fully automatic firearms, short-barreled shotguns, and certain "destructive devices" are currently very strictly regulated, and the NRA does not oppose those restrictions in their current form). Which of the following statements best describes your opinion about banning firearms? [Emphasis added.] A. I agree with the NRA. The federal government should not ban firearms. B. I disagree with the NRA. The following types of firearms should be banned: C. I disagree with the NRA. All firearms should be banned. That's right, NRA endorses NFA restrictions, including the only true gun ban ever passed by the United States Congress–the ban on the private sale or transfer of any machine gun manufactured after 1986. This first-ever gun ban was attached as an amendment to the McClure-Volkmer Firearms Owners Protection Act. Rather than kill the FOPA or pressing for a Conference Committee fight, Wayne LaPierre, then Executive Director of NRA-ILA, let the bill pass with the gun ban amendment in place. But LaPierre vowed that repealing the gun ban would be the number one priority for ILA in the next session of Congress. In the succeeding 20 years, NRA has never promoted a bill to repeal this insult, although for a while, at least, it was stated Board policy to oppose it. Stating support for current restrictions in Question 9 apparently was not sufficient for someone at NRA because pro-ban position comes up again in question 14 when talking about licensing requirements for firearms owners: The NRA opposes firearm owner licensing (other than the existing application requirements for machineguns and short-barreled rifles and shotguns) as a violation of citizens' constitutional rights, and as a waste of resources, since criminals will obtain firearms without complying with such requirements. [Emphasis added.] The discussion in Question 15 dealing with firearms registration underscores the internal contradictions of NRA's stated position: 15. Firearms registration is a system in which a government agency maintains immediately accessible records of specific firearms owned by individual citizens. Current federal policy prohibits the creation of a federal firearms registration system (other than the existing registration requirements for machineguns and short-barreled rifles and shotguns). Anti-gun advocates support firearms registration. The NRA opposes firearms registration–which has led to gun bans and confiscation in other countries (including Australia, Britain, and Canada)–as an unconstitutional and unnecessary measure that will be ignored by criminals. [Emphasis added.] Missing from this statement is the fact that registration of machine guns, as supported in this statement, has led to bans and confiscation here in the United States. Registration applied to machineguns and short-barreled rifles and shotguns is just as unconstitutional and unnecessary–and just as likely to be ignored by criminals–as registration of other firearms. The multiple-choice answers NRA offers for this question are even more ridiculous: A. I agree with the NRA and oppose firearm registration. B. I disagree with the NRA and support registration for some firearm. Please specify: C. I disagree with the NRA and support registration for all firearm. For the sake of accuracy, NRA should have made answer "B" an "I agree" answer since in the question NRA states their own support for registration of "some firearms." In the hard world of politics there might come a time when accepting a compromise of principle to avoid a greater injustice is the only choice. That time should be terribly rare–a last resort when there is no other viable option. A clear violation of its own principle should never originate from NRA, or any other portion of the gun rights movement. Much less should it be part of the opening bid. Someone at NRA needs to be held accountable. Permission to reprint or post this article in its entirety is hereby granted provided this credit is included. To Receive the Firearms Coalition’s bi-monthly newsletter, The Hard Corps Report, send a contribution to The Firearms Coalition, PO Box 3313, Manassas, Va. 20108 or visit FirearmsCoalition.org and ShotgunNews.com. ©Copyright 2006 Neal Knox Associates

moparnascar: In my humble opinion, if you're shopping in the $25K~27K range-- I would suggest (if at all possible) hold off and add maybe another 10~15% and try to buy the nicest gun you can afford. I commend the seller for being forthright and pointing out all the deficiencies (which would become obvious on inspection.) If you were to subtract the real value of these deficiencies from the value of a better gun--- I think you'd quickly see where you need to be as far as an offer, both for one in better condition as well as one that has a lot of defeciencies. As RON says above QUOTE ............hold back and look around... a few more colt's will be coming up for sale in the future...and you can take that to the bank..wink Sounds like he knows something he's not telling us about yet. I searched for several years back when they were readily available and bought a couple of the best I could afford at the time. Good luck in your search and I'm sure you'll find the gun for you. Bill

To a nice bunch of guys: Merry Christmas billatlanta

QUOTE (1921 Gangsta @ Dec 17 2006, 01:49 PM) http://www.machinegunbooks.com/forums/invboard1_1_2/upload/html/emoticons/ohmy.gif http://www.sturmgewehr.com/webBBS/nfa4sale....cgi?read=82739 The lock and latches look different, do you experts know if this is a early one? 21 gangsta The locks, latches, and everything are/is exactly the same as the Swetnam that I have-- even the condition from 80 years is near identical. My latches show a more flat patina aging as they have not been polished or enhanced (not saying that his has, don't know and don't care.) Even the handle leather ends that cover the connecting loops have disintigrated off and no longer there, excatly as his. I have yet to see or hear of one that still has the leather on the ends of the handles. Anyone know of one? That case would be maybe the only surviving one to exist Mine does have the ORIGINAL long cleaning rod, no spare kit. I'm thinking the market should be at least $4,000.00 for an original Swetnam, not really a large number of them out there. I could show and tell photos-- but you'd think I copied his--looks identical. Bill

QUOTE PhilOhio Posted on Dec 15 2006, 11:55 AM BillAtlanta, Why don't you consider approaching the Wal-Mart buyers, to handle your sticks? They may have no idea there is a market for this stuff. It would also be very useful for marking the identification stampings on machinery of all sorts, Phil (Regarding "Lacquer stick" to color in engraving.) Three good reasons why I wouldn't approach Wal-Mart with these. 1.) I am only a distributor/ dealer, the manufacturer is written on the stick and they would go around me and go direct, Wally would cut any middleman out. 2.) Wally will negotiate / re-negotiate /then negotiate some more until they strangle you down to the last couple pennies, then try to get something else at the last minute. 3.)Wally will take your sample, specifications, and all the details you've worked out--- dally around and delay you, and take your product to CHINA and see if they can have it produced for a third of your lowest price. So-- you have the idea, work all the details and a year later see your product retail at Wal-Mart for half of what it costs you to produce. So---- screw them and let them develope their own new products! The "Lacquer-Stick" retails so cheap now ($2.18) that I can't see how they can produce it, and in large quantities it wholesales for a little over a buck, consider the hazards of producing a lacquer paint product. The link to Brownell's: http://www.brownells.com/aspx/NS/store/Pro...le=LACQUER-STIK where they retail for $2.18, if you add $5.00 shipping, I'm sure they're losing on a sale like this, even if you order a white, red, black they'd lose. And I'd guess one stick would last you maybe 10 years. I did a study last year and found that in my small business it costs me $18.00 per order to "process it" for each order by phone, internet, fax, mail (whatever)--- that's the state of a small buisness in America today. Don't get me started. http://www.machinegunbooks.com/forums/invboard1_1_2/upload/html/emoticons/soapbox.gif Bill

Gentlemen: OK, I've found a link where you can purchase these retail direct for $2.18 each. These are the REAL STUFF, I wouldn't fool with anything else. They stock white, red, black,silver & gold, also consider that a full stick will probably do more than 100 pistols or 25+ Thompsons, so I doubt if you'll want to order more than one per color. Also stores for decades--the end will dry over hard in a few days, take a knife and cut off the hardened skim and it will be soft below and ready to use again (and again.) Link to Brownells firearms supply: http://www.brownells.com/aspx/NS/store/Pro...le=LACQUER-STIK As I mentioned, my company wholesales these for the antique auto trade, but we generally have a $50 minimum order, if I'm going to a show or something-- ask me and I'll just bring some along for you. Now-- if you have any questions on how to use this or are having problems, or need special advice-- email me or post and I'll see if I can help, I've used this product for decades. Just remember that this is a creamy lacquer paint and dries in a day or two. One quick tip: no need to remove the absolute small residue surrounding the engraving before it dries (on a non-pourous surface such as blueing or stainless), it will come off the sourounding surface after the engraving has hardned, with a soft cloth and a hint of solvent. If you screw up-- soft tooth brush with lacquer thinner or denatured alcohol and just start over. My regards to all the members, and best wishes for the Holidays. Bill

Effective immediatly, ATF form 4's are no longer sent to Chicago-- but a new address in Atlanta, Link to ATF's site and notice: http://www.atf.treas.gov/firearms/121206fo...orm4changes.htm Any forms sent to Chicago will now be forwarded to the Atlanta address. Thought you'd like to know, to save time. Bill

motorgun Mosy likely "Lacquer-Stick" was used, a paint like crayon. When rubbed over the letters, the soft paint fills the grooves and the residue is wiped from the surface before it dries hard. Removal may require a soft tooth brush and denatured alchol or lacquer thinner (available Wal-Mart) neither of which should bother the blueing, rub softly, immediatly wipe residue with a soft cotton cloth. A Q tip won't get down in there. I have been a distributor of this product for 20+ years and is commonly used on firearms, antique car dash knobs, etc. Best wishes with the new toy. Bill

Effective immediatly, ATF form 4's are no longer sent to Chicago-- but a new address in Atlanta, Link to ATF's site and notice: http://www.atf.treas.gov/firearms/121206fo...orm4changes.htm Any forms sent to Chicago will now be forwarded to the Atlanta address. Thought you'd like to know, to save time. Bill

John, Pat K, Thanks much for your excellent reports, even the serial #'s, conditions, prices. Excellent work ! I know the info was well recieved here by all, and thanks for keeping us abreast. Now, for the next one-- if I could mail you one of these new tiny pocket high res cameras, smaller than a pack of cigarettes with 300+ memory............................. Bill

Right. The seller states that it is a C & R gun, apears to be an original Guide Lamp mfg---- so it has to be an amnisty registered gun-- the only way to register a war gun. Price? Yeah, market on an original Guide Lamp about $19K. I would note that it is an M3A1, I personally prefer my M3 with the cocking handle so you don't have to stick your finger in the bolt to cock it. The "A1" was a later model to make even simplier and cheaper. The market on a tube gun is about $10K I bought mine from Bob Landies, Ohio Ordanace about 20 years ago, he had a large number of these both original and tube, that they refinished to like new. He had an ad in SGN: Tube guns: $1250 and Guide Lamp C&R $2050, I took a Guide Lamp M3 ( and MP40 tube gun at $1750.) Parts kits were a little over $100. I would wonder if this one for sale was a "Landies" gun, if so-- most likely refinished (but nice.) I love my M3 (and other MGs) for what they are-- just like you could love your 5 children, love them all. Not the precision beauty of the Thompsons, I still like my "ugly child." Everyone who shoots it--loves it, too bad they're 10~20K now, not a lot of them around.

Thanks for the report John, Just curious, on the three Colts above in the $31~32K range, do you roughly recall their general overall condition? Were they the average PD beaters or better? Any N.Y. "L" drums and prices? Thanks, Bill

Gentlemen, While I can't comment on the value of the drum, I would suggest excercising caution in the transaction. Having thousands (yes) of transactions on ebay both buying and selling---- note the seller has zero feedback, signed up 6 weeks ago. Although the Paypal might seem to give some assurance to the buyer, if you didn't receive it --the "protection would be void--- due to an "improper listing." Keep in mind that the seller could walk after the deal, possibly the buyer might lose the money, and could what? Leave him a negative feedback? The seler might be 100% trustworthy, but has not demonstrated it yet. A suggestion might be to have a friend or dealer pick the drum up in person, and release the funds. I don't mean to impugn the seller or the deal, just excercise caution. Bill

NORM : HELP !!! I keep looking at the perfectly clear close up of your 1928 above: the problem is: my MIND is telling me that the letters are RAISED, as I know this is not possible, they're engraved, the closer I look the more I see RAISED? Anyone else see this illusion? Bill

NORM, excellent shot ! Here's a few more to confuse everyone: Raised metal around the stamped letters especially the "U" and "S" in focus. Notice the BROWN metal due to florescent and light bulbs w/ color balance bulbs not in use: http://i121.photobucket.com/albums/o212/billatlanta/6164/DSC_0038.jpg Close on the 8 stamp, metal is very ragged at the surface, causes shadows when shot from above: http://i121.photobucket.com/albums/o212/billatlanta/6164/DSC_0039.jpg Obviously appear quite different under FLASH, (compare to the next following shot.) http://i121.photobucket.com/albums/o212/billatlanta/6164/DSC_0042.jpg And now they look more similar, same flash, different ANGLE: http://i121.photobucket.com/albums/o212/billatlanta/6164/DSC_0044.jpg As you can see in the second photo above, the "U.S.Navy" is shinier than the engraved letters. The nice photos on Norm's above do not have the problems of shooting a reflective surface which can play havock due to lighting and reflection angles. Some would use a "Polorizer" filter-- I do not, as it can alter the actual appearance somewhat. More later, Bill